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Defining a True One


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#16 Matthias

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:56 PM

What's a corrupt nature?  How can you know that one's being is corrupt versus uncorrupt?  Who is this Jesus fellow you say wasn't in possession of a corrupt nature?  Is there anything outside of your one text corroborating any of this?

 

A corrupt nature is basically one that is not operating as God created it to operate.  Before I answer any more, keep in mind that these questions are asked in light of the Bible.  These questions aren't about actual evidence and me presenting my case in that fashion.  I'll have that discussion later on hehe!  Yet in terms of the biblical terms, man was originally made in the image of God.  So in essence, our nature mirrored His.  How can we tell a corrupt nature?  By trying to keep the Torah or Law.  Now, Jesus made it even clearer for us when it comes to the commandments, that even if you dwelled on things counter to the law, you are breaking it.  That if you lust after someone, you commit adultery.  If you hate someone, you a muderer and break those commandments.  So the Law reveals our true nature, because of course we want to lust after good looking people right?  It's just not how God created us.  Now the text say Jesus wasn't born with this nature, but was born after God's nature. (Like the first Adam)  I can't comment what's outside the text and what governs what outside it, but this discussion is concerning the text.

 

 

 

Pick any.  Perhaps the parable of the good samaritan

 

 

Well, teachings like that I agree aren't dependant on a literal Genesis.  Anyone can do good things and things like that.  Yet what's dependant on a literal Genesis is the whole reason why God is at odds with the world.  If God created the world like we see it today, or that we came about through the accepted history of the world, that eliminates the need for Jesus to come and "save" us.  Save us from what exactly and redeem us from what exactly, if there wasn't a fall of creation in the beginning?  So I argue, the whole set up for Jesus coming to redeem us, hangs on a literal Genesis.



#17 Happy Panther

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 01:11 PM

So basically the Bible should be taken literally except when it shouldn't.

 

One thing I keep in mind is the bible was written by dozens of different people over thousands of years. There are even a half dozen or so books that made it into and out of different versions of the bible. It was very interesting reading these in religion class.

 

Anyway the point is I think it would be difficult to argue that each one was meant to be interpreted with the same level of literalness. (although I take very little of it literally)



#18 Kral

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:47 PM

A corrupt nature is basically one that is not operating as God created it to operate  ...  Yet in terms of the biblical terms, man was originally made in the image of God.  So in essence, our nature mirrored His.  How can we tell a corrupt nature?  By trying to keep the Torah or Law.  

 

What does that mean that our nature mirrors God's?  By trying to keep the "Torah or Law" as you say reveals a corrupt nature?  That is what you are saying here.



#19 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 04:31 PM

  Jesus came into the world to save it, not to condemn it.

 

Matthais,

 

Jesus' crucifixion was a sacrifice for humanity's sins, but was it really that big of a sacrifice?

 

Most of us have been taught that heaven is a paradise.  

 

Jesus presumably knew this better than anyone, so sacrificing his earthbound body of flesh and blood was really not much of a sacrifice at all.  It amounted to little more than temporary pain and anguish for a big payoff at the end.

 

God should have simply cut out the "middle man" and decreed that humanity was getting a "do-over".  As long as individuals accepted God as their savior, they would be forgiven. 

 

Why all the unnecessary dramatics?

 

 

 

 



#20 lightsout

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:02 PM

Was Jesus REALLY that great of a guy? I mean, he did say he did not intend to bring peace to earth, but a sword. And he did refer to one non-Jew (Gentile) woman as a "dog" when she asked for him to heal her daughter. Matthew 15:22-28. He basically said, in whole, "No, I will not help you, because I came to help the Jews, not the non-Jews." Then, with all of his power, he was ultimately convinced to change his mind by her basically saying, "even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table".

Jesus also gives numerous examples of bad advice (not saving money, not planning for the future, make people want to persecute you, if someone hits you, invite them to do it again, etc) and examples of things that are just patently absurd (marrying a divorced women is adultery, don't have sexual urges, if your eyes or hands do something wrong, pluck it out/cut it off, etc). And thought crimes, as you gave examples of, are also absurd. Thinking about doing ANYTHING immoral or harmful is NOT as bad as doing it. It actually is good if you can THINK of doing something like murder and have the restraint NOT to. To say "thinking it is as bad as doing it" sort of permits bad behavior since you haven't drawn a distinction between the two.

So, on top of his "sacrifice" not really being a real sacrifice, he's also a bit of a dick and a bit crazy. Do we REALLY need to strive to be like that character?



#21 lightsout

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:07 PM

Allow me to get on topic a bit, though. Other posters have covered the big issues with this thread topic. You simply can't draw a universal Christianity premise here. Defining which god it is that we're talking about IS important. So, your intention is right, but your execution leaves something to be desired. The best you can do with this is define what god is TO YOU and argue that point (which, essentially, you have done). Just don't assume that these are things that are/should be universal (your Genesis as literal truth, for example).

Arguing against your point, it's really simple to debunk the bible as a collection of stories written by men in the Bronze Age.

First line of the bible. A claim is made there. Prove that claim. If you cannot or if you do not desire to, there is no need to have the conversation. EVERYTHING in the bible hinges on whether or not that claim is true.



#22 PhillyB

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:54 PM

Arguing against your point, it's really simple to debunk the bible as a collection of stories written by men in the Bronze Age.

 

this is liberal propaganda and totally wrong!!!!!!

 

Spoiler



#23 lightsout

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:19 PM

this is liberal propaganda and totally wrong!!!!!!

 

Spoiler

 

Well, I think of it as Iron Age re-tellings of Bronze Age myths. Meh. *shrugs*



#24 cookinwithgas

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:19 PM

Belinda Carlslile taught me that Heaven Is A Place On Earth.

#25 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:56 PM

Belinda Carlslile taught me that Heaven Is A Place On Earth.



Belinda Carlslie was also documented and wrote about in her lifetime...not 70 years after her death...so maybe she is more relevant for writing "Our Lips Are Sealed" which confused Australlians to sing "Alex the Seal?!" than capital J walking n talkin all dat smack!

#26 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:02 AM

Belinda Carlslile taught me that Heaven Is A Place On Earth.

 

In the back of your mind, what you're hoping to find, she's the "Real Thing", Belinda Carlisle!

 

Belinda Carlisle is a vegetarian, and supporter of animal rights. She and her band-mates were the first stars to pose for PETA's "Rather Go Naked Than Wear Fur" campaign in 1990. In a 2013 interview, she talked about going back to vegetarianism after a long break stating that,

 

"I fell off the vegetarian wagon and never felt good about it. I wouldn't let myself think of my plate of meat as an animal, but I knew deep inside it was, and actually it was gross, especially chicken. I was full of shame. Then I started practicing yoga, which is all about nonviolence, and realized eating meat isn't compatible with that. Now I teach yoga, and I'm so full of pride not to support factory farms and to be socially responsible."

 

She contributed her song, "Bless the Beasts and the Children" to the album "Tame Yourself" to benefit PETA.

http://en.wikipedia....e#Vegetarianism

QFT

 

In the Back of Your Mind, What You're Hoping to Find It's the Real Thing - Where to Go for Transcendence

 

As a human being, you're continually in search of greater happiness.  We all find happiness in our own ways. But what if you could find a place where a concentrated, virtually unlimited reservoir of happiness was available?

 

There is one that exists, and great teachers throughout history have pointed us inward to find it. The Bhagavad Gita, where Yoga was taught for the first time, locates this reservoir of joy at the source of thought, at the basis of (or back of) your mind; it's transcendental. Since happiness is what you always seek, and since it exists in abundance at the back of your mind, what you're always hoping to find can be found at the back of your mind. And, Coca-Cola is right; it is the real thing.

http://www.massageto...le.php?id=13396

 



#27 Chimera

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 02:34 AM

Was Jesus REALLY that great of a guy? I mean, he did say he did not intend to bring peace to earth, but a sword. And he did refer to one non-Jew (Gentile) woman as a "dog" when she asked for him to heal her daughter. Matthew 15:22-28. He basically said, in whole, "No, I will not help you, because I came to help the Jews, not the non-Jews." Then, with all of his power, he was ultimately convinced to change his mind by her basically saying, "even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table".

Jesus also gives numerous examples of bad advice (not saving money, not planning for the future, make people want to persecute you, if someone hits you, invite them to do it again, etc) and examples of things that are just patently absurd (marrying a divorced women is adultery, don't have sexual urges, if your eyes or hands do something wrong, pluck it out/cut it off, etc). And thought crimes, as you gave examples of, are also absurd. Thinking about doing ANYTHING immoral or harmful is NOT as bad as doing it. It actually is good if you can THINK of doing something like murder and have the restraint NOT to. To say "thinking it is as bad as doing it" sort of permits bad behavior since you haven't drawn a distinction between the two.

So, on top of his "sacrifice" not really being a real sacrifice, he's also a bit of a dick and a bit crazy. Do we REALLY need to strive to be like that character?


you're right, Jesus did teach those things. However, context is important.

God, in this sense, offered salvation ONLY to the Jews, the descendants of Abraham. The Jewish establishment was corrupt, much like the Christian establishment is corrupt today.

Bringing a sword was his way of explaining that he intended to destroy the corruption that had permeated Judaism.

Being that salvation was only for Jews, not for others like Gentiles, Jesus summed it up perfectly: you don't take food from your children and give it to a dog.
The woman did convince Jesus that dogs get table scraps, which is really how Christianity was born (being that salvation is available for non-Jews since the Jewish establishment rejected his teachings)

As for the "bad advice," all I can really say is that he was teaching the importance of not getting caught up with worldly goods, desires, greed, quarrels, etc.

His sacrifice probably wasn't that great if you look at it the way you described. But some verses indicate that the crucifixion also nullified the Jewish laws in the Old Testament. There are other verses that seem to contradict that statement, so it's up for discussion.

#28 Matthias

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:16 AM

I thank everyone for your questions.  I don't have time to respond to them in detail just yet, but I will be back later this afternoon and get on them.  Now, I'm happy for the questions, perhaps most of you won't be fully satisfied with my responses but I'll go out on a limb and say they should be interesting for you to read.  However, I guess I'm not getting the full response in this topic that I hoped.  Perhaps my topic title and OP are slightly misleading, but I do want to discuss those points in better detail.  To get this thing going off in more of the direction of discussion I want it to go (and again I'll answer the previous questions as well), all the former christians, tell me your take of what Christianity is, or how you understand some of the main tenets of Chrisitanity.



#29 twylyght

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:30 AM

Belding and I are pretty close to how we view Christianity with respect to a Biblical/Historical context.  The Old Testament reads like a continual repeat in large of God's chosen people screwing up and continually making a new covenant.  Jesus comes along and is rejected by the leaders of God's chosen and then opens it up to everyone. 

 

The rules that man had set up to keep the covenant with God had become the wall that separated man from God.  Jesus came to rebuild the relationship that had been lost as a result.  The Father's relationship to anyone is different as is parents with their children.



#30 lightsout

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:41 PM

you're right, Jesus did teach those things. However, context is important.

God, in this sense, offered salvation ONLY to the Jews, the descendants of Abraham. The Jewish establishment was corrupt, much like the Christian establishment is corrupt today.

Bringing a sword was his way of explaining that he intended to destroy the corruption that had permeated Judaism.

Being that salvation was only for Jews, not for others like Gentiles, Jesus summed it up perfectly: you don't take food from your children and give it to a dog.
The woman did convince Jesus that dogs get table scraps, which is really how Christianity was born (being that salvation is available for non-Jews since the Jewish establishment rejected his teachings)

As for the "bad advice," all I can really say is that he was teaching the importance of not getting caught up with worldly goods, desires, greed, quarrels, etc.

His sacrifice probably wasn't that great if you look at it the way you described. But some verses indicate that the crucifixion also nullified the Jewish laws in the Old Testament. There are other verses that seem to contradict that statement, so it's up for discussion.

 

OK, to your first point: what? That's honestly all I know to say to that.

To the second (bringing a sword..): evidence to support that interpretation? Because Matthew 10 offers no such context (and that is where that verse appears). He goes on immediately after that verse to elaborate on that and explain that he came to "turn a man against his father, daughter against mother...a man's enemies will be the members of his own household". And then, after that, he FURTHERS his own context by saying “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Basically, Jesus, over the course of several verses in Matthew 10, affirms what I said: that Jesus came to not bring peace, but conflict (the sword). There is no hint on parable here. In case you're uncertain, Matthew 10 is Jesus sending the 12 disciples out to witness to the Jews.


So, if Jesus is god, and god is Jesus (hello, holy trinity), then Jesus, aka god, in all of his supposed omniscience and omnipotence, was swayed by a mortal non-Jew to, you know, not be a dick to non-Jews? How does that even make sense?

That doesn't address his truly bad advice of not saving for tomorrow or the others. You can twist it how you want, he expressly states "give all you have to the poor". He wanted his followers to reject worldly things, sure. But he REALLY wants that. Don't work for food. Don't save money. Don't plan for the future. And does ANYBODY listen to Jesus on this? HELL no they don't. Why? Because it isn't practical. At all. And due to that, people like to say (just as with the bible's condoning of slavery), "it was a different time, so god set different rules and expectations", which makes no sense, again, because a perfect being doesn't change his mind. To change your mind is to admit error, and a perfect being is without error.

There are no verses that indicate that the crucifixion also nullified the Jewish laws in the Old Testament. None. Jesus himself said, also in Matthew, that he did not come to abolish the law, but fulfill it (fulfill the blood sacrifice requirement for all sin forever, which is also silly, considering Jesus is god's human form. All god had to do was say, "hey, guys, new rule, you don't have to sacrifice blood and flesh for sin anymore. Yeah, just like, pray about it and it's all good".). He goes on to say, "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." So, there you have it. Straight from the horse's mouth. If there is anything that contradicts that, well, I guess at that point we can chalk it up to yet another contradiction of the bible and more reason to call BS.




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