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PhillyB

Casting your ideological lots (**Warning: lengthy commentary in OP**)

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Good thread.


There are several things we, as a society, have to do.

1. Value education again. Across the country, we are suffering in education. Families don't place importance on it as much as they used to. This stems, I think, from our economy and the fact that high levels of education no longer guarantee you a job. While that is true, we should still work harder as a society to ensure our young people are properly educated. The BIGGEST thing that I think needs to be MANDATORY is a critical thinking class. One that you have to have, say, each year. And each year, it progressively gets tougher and more in-depth. Challenge our world's most impressionable minds: children. Most kids, especially in the Bible Belt (though, it occurs everywhere), have been indoctrinated with certain beliefs and ideologies (Christianity and racism being the biggest two). While there is nothing wrong with letting children believe what makes sense to them, we need to make sure they understand what they're subscribing to and fully understand how to believe things and hold views for good reasons. Teach them how to think. Teach them the methods for discerning truth. Teach them to VALUE truth. When you do this, you will see a smarter society that is more capable of contributing to society. And this leads me to my next point:

2. Get religious views out of politics. This one is tough. It's hard to convince people that their religious views hold no place in politics. This is due, again, to the indoctrination and the facts that you pointed out about people subscribing to political ideologies because of other ideologies they hold. I believe that no society can flourish long term under a political system that is filled with religious ideology. Religion is built to be divisive, which isn't conducive to working together with other people for the greater good. Instead of saying, "hey, we can set aside this ideology to work on this issue", we have people saying, "if you just thought like me and agreed with me, we wouldn't have this problem".

3. We have to convince people to think more about their positions. Most people don't know WHY the hell they hold the positions they hold, and when challenged, they double down and want to agree to disagree. Depending on the issue and situation, that may be the right course. However, when it comes to getting to the bottom of an issue and trying to make progress, it's a roadblock. It's halting progress in favor of the status quo. People want to hold onto their ideologies fervently rather than have them challenged because it's not comfortable because, again, they don't know how to defend most of their ideologies. Many of them actually, in reality, do not agree with a lot of their ideologies (or at least, some of the things within those broader ideologies). Until we, as a society, start accepting that "maybe I need to think more about this and see if it is actually defensible under the white hot light of objective scrutiny", we won't get anywhere and the problems outlined in the OP will persist.



As you can see, those 3 things go hand-in-hand. If you do one, it will, at some point, lead to one of the others, and so on. If you do it in that order, hell, you might not GET to #3, because #1 covers it ahead of time. 

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I do want to divert from topic a bit and cover something you mentioned, Philly. Deferring to authority isn't ALWAYS bad/the wrong thing to do. In the case of say, evolution, you said it; most people aren't evolutionary biologists. Taking a few courses on it certainly makes one more aware of how it works and the effects of it, but they're still by no means experts. Deferring to the authority of scientists dedicated in the field is the right course of action to take when discussing it. Evolution is the widely accepted model for the progression of life on earth over time. So widely that it lead to modern medicine and our understanding of how the various specious of plant and animal life have come to be. So widely that, in the biology field, you'd be hard-pressed to find a single scientist that disagrees with the theory and has significant, peer-reviewed and accepted evidence to support their disagreement in favor of their model of YEC.

Now, deferring to authority in the way people say "god said it, so it's true" is indeed wrong and a logical fallacy. Just wanted to point that out for those who might think deferring to experts is a cop-out when it's actually not.

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Thanks for showing my point.

So your point was only to get a reaction, and not based on facts? Please enlighten me of the virtues of other government systems in the world. Although i agree the US system  is flawed, and needs tweaking, the foundation that a constitutional republic provides is unmatched. It has been proven throughout history. If you have evidence that others foundations have out performed ours, by all means, please share. I am curious and open minded.

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So your point was only to get a reaction, and not based on facts? Please enlighten me of the virtues of other government systems in the world. Although i agree the US system  is flawed, and needs tweaking, the foundation that a constitutional republic provides is unmatched. It has been proven throughout history. If you have evidence that others foundations have out performed ours, by all means, please share. I am curious and open minded.

My point was that you would ignore my point once I invoked something not acceptable to your paradigm.

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My point was that you would ignore my point once I invoked something not acceptable to your paradigm.

 

do you accept his paradigm?

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do you accept his paradigm?

I'd rather have a pair a'dimes.

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The reason people don't like to think about this is because it challenges their paradigm and these people do not want to realize that they are not good people and they support evil systems.  This of course assumes a moral standard somewhat based around the idea of "do unto others..."

 

That's my hypothesis for now anyway.

 

For a small example lets look at constitutional republic for a moment.  Is it really a superior form of government?  Is there nothing that could be better?  If so why can't we implement it?  These questions are going to be to your average American very much against their established views and will be viewed in a negative light even if the intent is to help them, in this case by possibly determining a superior form of government to implement through discussion.

I'm asking for a discussion? I don't view your comments negatively. I plainly stated show me the evidence and we can discuss it. That flies in the face of your "Hypothesis". When you challenge someones view, it is wise to be prepared to offer your alternative. I love reading the opinions of others, it helps us learn.

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I'm asking for a discussion? I don't view your comments negatively. I plainly stated show me the evidence and we can discuss it. That flies in the face of your "Hypothesis". When you challenge someones view, it is wise to be prepared to offer your alternative. I love reading the opinions of others, it helps us learn.

 

In that case I'm not actually arguing for or against any sort of government.  What I'm stating is that my limited experience has seemingly demonstrated to me that MOST people aren't very good at considering things from outside their own perspective that is all.

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In that case I'm not actually arguing for or against any sort of government. What I'm stating is that my limited experience has seemingly demonstrated to me that MOST people aren't very good at considering things from outside their own perspective that is all.

yea, I completely get the limited experience point. I don't hold the same negative opinion of my fellow citizens as you do. I see the complete opposite. Of course there are those who are so entrenched in their ideological view of the world, but they aren't as numerous as the media and political class would lead you to believe.

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