Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Knox Bardeen of BR says we HAVE to re-sign Hardy

Greg Hardy Knox Bardeen Bleacher Report Dave Gettleman Carolina Panthers

  • Please log in to reply
81 replies to this topic

#61 csx

csx

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,261 posts

Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:32 PM

The other thing that you forget is that Hardy has the ability to play DE and  DT which makes him more valuable than any other defensive linemen right now.

 

 

Playing inside on passing downs does not make you a DT. Johnson has done the same thing for 6 years and is not a DT either.



#62 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,724 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:32 PM

The guy isn't out qb and isn't te qb of the defence luke is, for me hardy is a good player but not great! Stats can be deceiving he made most of his sacks mostly against poor olines and doubled up his tally in the last two games.
I don't think his loss will be as huge as we think, the team has basically no offense at all! We have a cam and kalil the rest needs ripping up and starting again the next two to three years! The defense has luke cj td star kk mitchell plus whatever stud dbs we get this year in the draft! You gotta think long term! Do you want to be relevant in five years time? Hurney never built ahead gettleman is thinking that way! Next two years I believe we will draft and sign mainly offensive players be it linemen and weapons for cam! Apart from the secondary and if hardy goes the defense is set! So I'm not worried! Take away from one position to add to two or three! The math goes you the answer

Can't say I agree with most of your conclusions.  First of all as DEs go, Hardy was great this year not good.  Good is 25 tackles and 5 or 6 sacks.  Great is 3rd in sacks overall with 15 sacks and 59 tackles.  Johnson meanwhile had 11 sacks and 30 tackles.  Addison and Anderson combined didn't have what Hardy had alone.

 

The point is all your arguments about how we can't afford Hardy and it will hurt the offense has no merit.  We can easily pay Hardy and still have plenty to spend on FA and the draft.  In fact the argument  could be made that signing Hardy goes a long way to us getting an OL or WR in the first or second instead of going for a DE.  We won't have to give up anything.  Truth is we have  more in dead cap money from the Beason debacle than it will cost us to keep Hardy this year. We could have a cap hit as little as 5 or 6 million for Hardy this year.

 

So no, we don't have to have one or the other, there is no reason we can't have both. 

 

Worse for us would be Hardy going to a division rival and having to face him twice a year.   



#63 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,724 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:33 PM

 

Playing inside on passing downs does not make you a DT. Johnson has done the same thing for 6 years and is not a DT either.

It makes him better because he is a DE who can play more than 1 position.  And yeah Johnson can do it as well.  Hardy is just better than Johnson right now. I would rather have a guy who can play inside and out  rather than just inside.



#64 Peppers90 NC

Peppers90 NC

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,758 posts

Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:44 PM

it will play itself out, until then i guess we can come to our own assumptions/conclusions.  there isn't anyone on this board that wants to see him play for another team, but we all know he wants to get his money.  it is safe to say he is looking at 10m+/year.  if we can back load it, it might be possible.



#65 jptaylor84

jptaylor84

    MEMBER

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 649 posts

Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:48 PM

Can't say I agree with most of your conclusions. First of all as DEs go, Hardy was great this year not good. Good is 25 tackles and 5 or 6 sacks. Great is 3rd in sacks overall with 15 sacks and 59 tackles. Johnson meanwhile had 11 sacks and 30 tackles. Addison and Anderson combined didn't have what Hardy had alone.

The point is all your arguments about how we can't afford Hardy and it will hurt the offense has no merit. We can easily pay Hardy and still have plenty to spend on FA and the draft. In fact the argument could be made that signing Hardy goes a long way to us getting an OL or WR in the first or second instead of going for a DE. We won't have to give up anything. Truth is we have more in dead cap money from the Beason debacle than it will cost us to keep Hardy this year. We could have a cap hit as little as 5 or 6 million for Hardy this year.

So no, we don't have to have one or the other, there is no reason we can't have both.

Worse for us would be Hardy going to a division rival and having to face him twice a year.


How do you figure $6 mill goes against the cap if we resign hardy? The guy wants $12mil he's reportedly turned down 10, we have around $13 mil in cap space even with restructures and cuts we will lucky to be over $20 mil in cap space with 21 spots to fill on the roster! Hardy isn't and shouldn't happen not if it takes away from other positions, the one main thing holding this team back is offense and it's lack of ability and talent! hardy is a good player but he's not jj watt in my opinion and I don't think he's worth a Charles Johnson type contract, if he had another season similar to last if pay him, but when I look at this team the problem is the secondary, if you have a better one then the pressure isn't on the front four so much as it has been to get constant pressure, when it downs the secondary is exposed, and hardy is key to that with the front four but if that secondary is addressed then it makes hardys leaving less painful if you see what I'm saying, ideal world he stays we build a great secondary and have number one ranked defense, and have space to address the offense I just can't see how it's done but I'm hoping I'm wrong, remeber the guy was a diamond pickup he was a sixth rounder not expected to be as good as he has been, there w

#66 top dawg

top dawg

    The Creative Cat

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,345 posts
  • LocationWITHIN MY MIND'S EYE

Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:49 PM

Sure it does, it makes you a DE who can play more than 1 position.  And yeah Johnson can do it as well.  Hardy is just better than Johnson right now.

 

That's debatable.  Johnson was basically hurt for two games (perhaps closer to three), and he still put up good numbers. Although I can't find it, I am pretty sure I saw somewhere that Johnson would have been just as productive, if not more so, had he not gotten hurt. In any event, in my opinion Johnson is the better overall defensive end.



#67 jptaylor84

jptaylor84

    MEMBER

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 649 posts

Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:50 PM

Can't say I agree with most of your conclusions. First of all as DEs go, Hardy was great this year not good. Good is 25 tackles and 5 or 6 sacks. Great is 3rd in sacks overall with 15 sacks and 59 tackles. Johnson meanwhile had 11 sacks and 30 tackles. Addison and Anderson combined didn't have what Hardy had alone.

The point is all your arguments about how we can't afford Hardy and it will hurt the offense has no merit. We can easily pay Hardy and still have plenty to spend on FA and the draft. In fact the argument could be made that signing Hardy goes a long way to us getting an OL or WR in the first or second instead of going for a DE. We won't have to give up anything. Truth is we have more in dead cap money from the Beason debacle than it will cost us to keep Hardy this year. We could have a cap hit as little as 5 or 6 million for Hardy this year.

So no, we don't have to have one or the other, there is no reason we can't have both.

Worse for us would be Hardy going to a division rival and having to face him twice a year.

How do you figure $6 mill goes against the cap if we resign hardy? The guy wants $12mil he's reportedly turned down 10, we have around $13 mil in cap space even with restructures and cuts we will lucky to be over $20 mil in cap space with 21 spots to fill on the roster! Hardy isn't and shouldn't happen not if it takes away from other positions, the one main thing holding this team back is offense and it's lack of ability and talent! hardy is a good player but he's not jj watt in my opinion and I don't think he's worth a Charles Johnson type contract, if he had another season similar to last if pay him, but when I look at this team the problem is the secondary, if you have a better secondary then the pressure isn't on the front four so much, as it was all last season to get constant pressure, when it didnt the secondary was exposed,and hardy is key to that with the front four, but if that secondary is addressed then it makes hardys leaving less painful if you see what I'm saying, ideal world he stays we build a great secondary and have number one ranked defense, and have space to address the offense I just can't see how it's done but I'm hoping I'm wrong, remeber the guy was a diamond pickup he was a sixth rounder not expected to be as good as he has been, there would be no need to go get a DE in the draft this year just bcos hardy goes! We have depth and can pick up a free agent DE or late draft pickup, seriously it's not the end of the world! Let's concentrate on offense and put up points and not need to depend in the defence again this would take away the pain of losing hardy, you cover other bases to camouflage another less handicapped one, seriously a better offense and secondary will more than make up for Greg hardy leaving that just obvious

#68 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,724 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:53 PM

it will play itself out, until then i guess we can come to our own assumptions/conclusions.  there isn't anyone on this board that wants to see him play for another team, but we all know he wants to get his money.  it is safe to say he is looking at 10m+/year.  if we can back load it, it might be possible.

And there is no reason we can't give  him 10 million a year.  But you don't have to guarantee all of it and you can have a cap hit of 5 or 6 million in 2014 and perhaps 8 million in 2015.  By the time his cap is 10 million or more we will be in a much better cap situation and we can easily afford him.  If we get rid of Godfrey and add his saving to what we paid Hardy this year and we will have covered the cap hit for Hardy next year.

 

What is amazing to me is that everyone has said that Johnson was worth his contract which results in a cap hit of 16 million in 2014 and we are saying Hardy isn't worth keeping at less than half of that amount in 2014.  Ridiculous.



#69 jptaylor84

jptaylor84

    MEMBER

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 649 posts

Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:01 PM

And there is no reason we can't give him 10 million a year. But you don't have to guarantee all of it and you can have a cap hit of 5 or 6 million in 2014 and perhaps 8 million in 2015. By the time his cap is 10 million or more we will be in a much better cap situation and we can easily afford him. If we get rid of Godfrey and add his saving to what we paid Hardy this year and we will have covered the cap hit for Hardy next year.

What is amazing to me is that everyone has said that Johnson was worth his contract which results in a cap hit of 16 million in 2014 and we are saying Hardy isn't worth keeping at less than half of that amount in 2014. Ridiculous.


Sounds like a good deal but that's down to hardy to want to do that, all He has said is he Wants to get paid, Johnson was merely paid to much to stop him going Atlanta, we would all prefer to keep him but the likelihood unless he does a deal like you suggest is not good, but I don't think it will be as huge a loss as you say, it will be big of course with his numbers he puts in but if we get secondary help then the whole front seven is helped out big time! And if we put up some poins we may actually not need to depend on the d but again it's all guess work depending in what route we go draft and free agency

#70 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,724 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:05 PM

How do you figure $6 mill goes against the cap if we resign hardy? The guy wants $12mil he's reportedly turned down 10, we have around $13 mil in cap space even with restructures and cuts we will lucky to be over $20 mil in cap space with 21 spots to fill on the roster! Hardy isn't and shouldn't happen not if it takes away from other positions, the one main thing holding this team back is offense and it's lack of ability and talent! hardy is a good player but he's not jj watt in my opinion and I don't think he's worth a Charles Johnson type contract, if he had another season similar to last if pay him, but when I look at this team the problem is the secondary, if you have a better one then the pressure isn't on the front four so much as it has been to get constant pressure, when it downs the secondary is exposed, and hardy is key to that with the front four but if that secondary is addressed then it makes hardys leaving less painful if you see what I'm saying, ideal world he stays we build a great secondary and have number one ranked defense, and have space to address the offense I just can't see how it's done but I'm hoping I'm wrong, remeber the guy was a diamond pickup he was a sixth rounder not expected to be as good as he has been, there w

You obviously don't understand how cap space works.  And no he didn't turn down 10 million he supposedly turned down 8 million. I have already pointed out how we can have a cap hit of 5 or 6 million.  Just consider that the signing bonus is prorated over the life of a contract and since you are giving him tens of millions, his salary is nothing in year 1. Most of his salary in years 3 and beyond is not guaranteed so you are just giving him his number with no need to have to actually pay it.

 

You post is so off base otherwise it is hard to know where to start.  He won't get a Charles Johnson contract and everyone knows it.  Comparing him to JJ Watt who is a OLB not a hand in the dirt DE is comparing apples to oranges.  They really get different money.

And the whole idea that we don't need a great pass rush if we make the secondary better is not born out by facts.  No pass rush makes every secondary look bad.  But a great pass rush makes every secondary look good just like it did for us this year.  Particularly playing zone which absolutely requires a great pass rush.  So no you are totally upside on that point.



#71 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,724 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:12 PM

Sounds like a good deal but that's down to hardy to want to do that, all He has said is he Wants to get paid, Johnson was merely paid to much to stop him going Atlanta, we would all prefer to keep him but the likelihood unless he does a deal like you suggest is not good, but I don't think it will be as huge a loss as you say, it will be big of course with his numbers he puts in but if we get secondary help then the whole front seven is helped out big time! And if we put up some poins we may actually not need to depend on the d but again it's all guess work depending in what route we go draft and free agency

The problem with Johnson was not getting too much, it was getting too much guaranteed.  Right now if we dump Johnson we end up with 16 million in dead cap space which is the remainder of his guaranteed signing bonus. If we had given him less guaranteed money we could get rid of him which we can't.  Just like Beason, Williams and Stewart, you can't get rid of them because of the dead cap space not because of what we gave them as total salary which is not guaranteed.



#72 Creepster

Creepster

    MEMBER

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 395 posts
  • LocationNot telling

Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:15 PM

Sick of hearing about Hardy.  We have bigger positions of need than one defensive end.



#73 jptaylor84

jptaylor84

    MEMBER

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 649 posts

Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:15 PM

You obviously don't understand how cap space works. And no he didn't turn down 10 million he supposedly turned down 8 million. I have already pointed out how we can have a cap hit of 5 or 6 million. Just consider that the signing bonus is prorated over the life of a contract and since you are giving him tens of millions, his salary is nothing in year 1. Most of his salary in years 3 and beyond is not guaranteed so you are just giving him his number with no need to have to actually pay it.

You post is so off base otherwise it is hard to know where to start. He won't get a Charles Johnson contract and everyone knows it. Comparing him to JJ Watt who is a OLB not a hand in the dirt DE is comparing apples to oranges. Still who has more sacks? that would be Hardy.
And the whole idea that we don't need a great pass rush if we make the secondary better is not born out by facts. No pass rush makes every secondary look bad. But a great pass rush makes every secondary look good just like it did for us this year. Particularly playing zone which absolutely requires a great pass rush. So no you are totally upside on that point.

No but the pass rush we have takes away how bad our secondary actually is, so If it's improved vastly then it makes hardys loss less hurtful to the defense! We will still have CJ and depth, plus the DTs will be better for a years experience, I'm just not buying into the whole end of the world scenario if he goes, as I said id love to keep him if it can be done, but how the hell do you resign cam to an extension and fill all the roster? that's why everyone is on about tag and trading him so I guess I'm not the only dumb fug on here, people are saying this cause the majority are saying we any afford to keep him, they could let hardy walk and go get a free agent like Michael Bennett with the little cap space we have. Until we get shot of Stewart and dwill a contracts we can't be offering out the kind of contracts that hardy wants, and my bad on the jj watt comparison totally went off theme there.

#74 csx

csx

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,261 posts

Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:15 PM

 Comparing him to JJ Watt who is a OLB not a hand in the dirt DE is comparing apples to oranges.  

 JJ Watt is a 3-4 DE.



#75 panthers55

panthers55

    Starting all over again

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,724 posts
  • LocationAt the lake

Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:27 PM

No but the pass rush we have takes away how bad our secondary actually is, so If it's improved vastly then it makes hardys loss less hurtful to the defense! We will still have CJ and depth, plus the DTs will be better for a years experience, I'm just not buying into the whole end of the world scenario if he goes, as I said id love to keep him if it can be done, but how the hell do you resign cam to an extension and fill all the roster? that's why everyone is on about tag and trading him so I guess I'm not the only dumb fug on here, people are saying this cause the majority are saying we any afford to keep him, they could let hardy walk and go get a free agent like Michael Bennett with the little cap space we have. Until we get shot of Stewart and dwill a contracts we can't be offering out the kind of contracts that hardy wants, and my bad on the jj watt comparison totally went off theme there.

There is no reason for an "either or" point of view. If we have a great pass rush the idea is to keep it and improve the secondary at the same time. That way you improve the defense in the only area where we struggled this year.  The whole tag and trade him is a fall back position to get something for him if you are not going to keep him.  There is no way we can afford to tag him and pay him that amount. So the tag is to try and get a draft pick for him rather than let him walk.  But honestly it is very unlikely to happen because all Hardy has to do is not sign his tender which means we can't trade him since he isn't ours to trade.  Sure he would have to sit out but he could hold out for the first 10 games and then sign and play the last 6 and still get credit for the year.  Plus we are still on the hook for his cap hit whether he signs or not I think.

 

And apparently I was off base on Watt also.  He is listed as a 3-4 DE which is analogous to our DT.

On another note, we will have 25 million in cap space this year once we restructure a few of them.  Godfrey saves up to 5 million alone. 





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Greg Hardy, Knox Bardeen, Bleacher Report, Dave Gettleman, Carolina Panthers

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Shop at Amazon Contact Us: info@carolinahuddle.com