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Life without Hardy may not be so bad?


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#31 heel31ok

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:28 AM

I read this article and thought id share it on here, Who knows what will happen whether we keep Hardy or not but watching both Addison and Alexander they didn't just come in to fill a hole they actually contributed, and alot more than people give them credit for too. Hardy will be a huge miss id be an idiot to say he wouldn't, but with CJ on the other side and two DTs with a years experience behind them maybe all won't be so bad, the numbers put up by both guys aren't bad at all considering how many snaps they were actually on the field, I mean people have said there not every down guys like Hardy but unless there given more snaps how do we know? add to that Horton as a third guy in the rotation who know.
It certainly may stop us from going out and paying for a FA replacement this year or waste a draft pick this year, which will allow other needs to be fixed.
I didn't see much of them at college and only seen them in a few snaps like most fans have, but the coaches seem to think highly of them both. Opinions?

http://sbn.to/1jSzAfn

 I think we would/will miss Hardy more than many here think.



#32 Verge

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:32 AM

Hey so if we kept hardy and brought in oh you know ware from dallas....

 

Think we would be a force?

No way in hell dallas is paying his ass

 

 

If we let Hardy walk due to monetary issues, what makes you think we can sign Ware?



#33 Blackmagic

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:50 AM

i think there is some of that, but i think.  lot is also honestly looking at what we would be like if we lost him and realizing that the defense is good enough that it can withstand a loss like that and still be dominant and not take serious steps backward.

 

 

we still have cj and star and kk as well as those LBs behind the DL who will make it easy for his replacement to do his job. we have a great GM who knows a thing or two about building great DLs and a HC and DC who are great at scheming defense.

 

it will hurt a little, but it won't cripple us. we're a whole lot better with him, but still a great D if we were without him.

 

I think that people can look back more objectively because of the time gap. He's good run defender, but to be fair, a mediocre pass rusher. Most of his sacks came against bad teams and a rookie with his first start. If you want the money that he seeks, you want a DE who shows up in big games and good teams.

 

Remember the New England game? CJ gets injured and the pass rush disappears. CJ returns, and the pass rush returns.

 

I agree that CJ, KK and star, and a good DE can get it done if Hardy leaves. With the Cam, Luke and Star's contract coming up, you don't want most of your cap spent on 4 a 5 players.



#34 I Mean He Was Found Guilty

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:28 AM

If we let Hardy walk due to monetary issues, what makes you think we can sign Ware?

 

he's over 30 and coming off a disappointing season.  it could end up that nobody would be willing to offer him top dollar in free agency.



#35 Beast_3000

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:33 AM

All I know is that I have liked what I've seen from Addison, Alexander and Horton in limited snaps. There is no chopped liver here. Take it however you like.


Agreed plus the added experience of our defensive tackles with CJ coming back healthy will make it a tad bit easier for an average defensive end in comparison. The cap space should allow us to regroup for 2015. It would be hard but we could get a upgraded veteran receiver and a upgrade veteran cornerback this year. Plus we should be able to bring back Mitchell and captain.

#36 panthers55

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:21 AM

I think that people can look back more objectively because of the time gap. He's good run defender, but to be fair, a mediocre pass rusher. Most of his sacks came against bad teams and a rookie with his first start. If you want the money that he seeks, you want a DE who shows up in big games and good teams.

 

Remember the New England game? CJ gets injured and the pass rush disappears. CJ returns, and the pass rush returns.

 

I agree that CJ, KK and star, and a good DE can get it done if Hardy leaves. With the Cam, Luke and Star's contract coming up, you don't want most of your cap spent on 4 a 5 players.

Hardy also takes on the left tackle which is usually the much better pass blocker so you expect him to have a tougher time but not because Johnson is better.  Most time Hardy is also listed as a better run defender and had almost twice as many tackles as Johnson had last year.

 

Johnson really wasn't back 100% until the Atlanta game when he got 2 sacks.  The five games before that he got none.  So really Hardy against New Orleans for example was the whole show.  Sure their tackle was a rookie but even with double teams and Brees throwing so quickly Hardy dominated. 

 

Truth is that Johnson is taking almost 15% of the cap by himself and is not dominant enough to justify it.  Hardy will be cheaper and has more upside.  If I had to choose between them I would take Hardy in a heart beat.  Johnson will only be here because once again Hurney and his crappy contracts coupled with Richardson screwing us in 2010 meant we had to way overpay Johnson to be here and now we are reaping the pain.



#37 TheNewStandard

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:25 AM

Hardy isn't going anywhere except to the promised land with the Panthers

#38 Blackmagic

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:22 AM

Hardy also takes on the left tackle which is usually the much better pass blocker so you expect him to have a tougher time but not because Johnson is better.  Most time Hardy is also listed as a better run defender and had almost twice as many tackles as Johnson had last year.

 

Johnson really wasn't back 100% until the Atlanta game when he got 2 sacks.  The five games before that he got none.  So really Hardy against New Orleans for example was the whole show.  Sure their tackle was a rookie but even with double teams and Brees throwing so quickly Hardy dominated. 

 

Truth is that Johnson is taking almost 15% of the cap by himself and is not dominant enough to justify it.  Hardy will be cheaper and has more upside.  If I had to choose between them I would take Hardy in a heart beat.  Johnson will only be here because once again Hurney and his crappy contracts coupled with Richardson screwing us in 2010 meant we had to way overpay Johnson to be here and now we are reaping the pain.

 

I know that it's harder to face the LT, but Hardy wasn't double teamed a lot. Against ATL, he had 2 sacks against Gonzalez.

Hardy is a better run defender, but the huge tackle difference is because of health.

 

I know that CJ is overpaid, but you don't fix that by overpaying Hardy. But if you look at the numbers, you'll see that CJ isn't overpaid as much as people think. Even if CJ made a few millions less, it's hard to pay 2 top DE's.



#39 panthers55

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:21 AM

I know that it's harder to face the LT, but Hardy wasn't double teamed a lot. Against ATL, he had 2 sacks against Gonzalez.

Hardy is a better run defender, but the huge tackle difference is because of health.

 

I know that CJ is overpaid, but you don't fix that by overpaying Hardy. But if you look at the numbers, you'll see that CJ isn't overpaid as much as people think. Even if CJ made a few millions less, it's hard to pay 2 top DE's.

First of all the huge tackle difference is not just health.  Johnson started more games than Hardy 14-13.  Secondly if you look at the first 11 games before Johnson got hurt- Hardy had 44 tackles to Johnson's 23.  Like many people here you don't do your homework and make statements that are easily disproven by the facts. 

 

CJ's cap numbers are just over the top.  It isn't about salary alone but the fact that he accounts for almost 13% of the total cap and while I haven't broken it down yet likely almost 25% of the defensive cap.  That is crazy.  Hardy won't be overpaid because Gettleman won't do it.  But he is going to try and keep him as well because honestly we can't afford to have Johnson account for 16 million this year and 17 million next year and we need one of them.  I hope actually he extends Johnson for 2 more years to reduce his cap hit and tells him that if he doesn't take the deal, this year will be his last.



#40 Blackmagic

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:43 AM

First of all the huge tackle difference is not just health.  Johnson started more games than Hardy 14-13.  Secondly if you look at the first 11 games before Johnson got hurt- Hardy had 44 tackles to Johnson's 23.  Like many people here you don't do your homework and make statements that are easily disproven by the facts. 

 

CJ's cap numbers are just over the top.  It isn't about salary alone but the fact that he accounts for almost 13% of the total cap and while I haven't broken it down yet likely almost 25% of the defensive cap.  That is crazy.  Hardy won't be overpaid because Gettleman won't do it.  But he is going to try and keep him as well because honestly we can't afford to have Johnson account for 16 million this year and 17 million next year and we need one of them.  I hope actually he extends Johnson for 2 more years to reduce his cap hit and tells him that if he doesn't take the deal, this year will be his last.

 

Johnson played a lot of more games hurt, and I'll give you that Hardy makes more tackles. He's more disruptive in the running game.

 

CJ's cap number is over the top. But if Gettleman won't overpay Hardy, he won't be here. There are teams with 50 million cap space like Oakland with DE need.



#41 panthers55

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:12 PM

Johnson played a lot of more games hurt, and I'll give you that Hardy makes more tackles. He's more disruptive in the running game.

 

CJ's cap number is over the top. But if Gettleman won't overpay Hardy, he won't be here. There are teams with 50 million cap space like Oakland with DE need.

Like many you confuse salary and cap.  We don't have a big cap amount this year or next but we can work around it if we want Hardy here.  He is talking about it all being about the money because that is what his agent told him to say, they are in negotiations.  But Hardy wants to play here if the money is reasonable.  Playing in Oakland is a train wreck and he has already played on some bad teams here.  He won't give a hometown discount but he won't only consider the money.  We can make the salary anything he wants, it is the guaranteed money that counts.  I hope they make it incentive laden which is what he says he would do.  Pay him a ton and he will do whatever he needs to do.  That smacks of incentives.



#42 sanjay_rajput

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 01:24 PM

Like many you confuse salary and cap.  We don't have a big cap amount this year or next but we can work around it if we want Hardy here.  He is talking about it all being about the money because that is what his agent told him to say, they are in negotiations.  But Hardy wants to play here if the money is reasonable.  Playing in Oakland is a train wreck and he has already played on some bad teams here.  He won't give a hometown discount but he won't only consider the money.  We can make the salary anything he wants, it is the guaranteed money that counts.  I hope they make it incentive laden which is what he says he would do.  Pay him a ton and he will do whatever he needs to do.  That smacks of incentives.

 

 

We around 30 Million under cap space so atleast we can do is tag him for another year couple that with a good daft class to address the OL /WR  we should be Top 10 on both sides of the ball. Hardy values comes in run blocking and containing the edge, especially against mobile QB. The  two teams in the playoff we will probably face are 49rs & Seahawks both  that can run the ball and have a mobile QB. Hardy has also improved every year and i expect that to continue next year so I'm willing to bet he will be worth the franchise tag.

 

2015's cap figure will also rise and with restructure of several players we should be able to retain all of our key players including Hardy.



#43 Blackmagic

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:55 AM

Like many you confuse salary and cap.  We don't have a big cap amount this year or next but we can work around it if we want Hardy here.  He is talking about it all being about the money because that is what his agent told him to say, they are in negotiations.  But Hardy wants to play here if the money is reasonable.  Playing in Oakland is a train wreck and he has already played on some bad teams here.  He won't give a hometown discount but he won't only consider the money.  We can make the salary anything he wants, it is the guaranteed money that counts.  I hope they make it incentive laden which is what he says he would do.  Pay him a ton and he will do whatever he needs to do.  That smacks of incentives.

 

I know it's all about guaranteed money, but tell me which high dollar contract doesn't have a high cap number in year 2 or 3. They keep it artificial low in the first year, Maybe they can keep in the low until they can cut CJ.

 

We can disagree about Oakland. He wants to play for a good team, but it's occupation not a hobby. He would be a fool if he passes up more guaranteed money (if the differences a million or 2 per year) and his agent Rosenhaus isn't a fool. It would be great if he stayed, but I doubt it. Gettleman doesn't seem a GM who wants to give big contracts, but we'll see with Hardy.



#44 panthers55

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 10:13 AM

I know it's all about guaranteed money, but tell me which high dollar contract doesn't have a high cap number in year 2 or 3. They keep it artificial low in the first year, Maybe they can keep in the low until they can cut CJ.

 

We can disagree about Oakland. He wants to play for a good team, but it's occupation not a hobby. He would be a fool if he passes up more guaranteed money (if the differences a million or 2 per year) and his agent Rosenhaus isn't a fool. It would be great if he stayed, but I doubt it. Gettleman doesn't seem a GM who wants to give big contracts, but we'll see with Hardy.

You might not remember it but several years Haynesworth got a 100 million contract from Washington.  He underperformed and eventually was cut but what he got from the contract was a little under 40 million.  So no it isn't guaranteed that a player will get even half of a contract as long as not too much is guaranteed.  Look at Johnson's contract.  His dead cap hit in 2015 is 6 million but his regular cap number if we keep him is 17 million.  If he doesn't restructure or extend he won't be here next year unless he has a pro-bowl season.

 

As for Hardy, if he is willing to take some incentives we can make it lucrative if he continues to produce but escapable if he doesn't.  The question is whether he wants to play on a crap team and make a few million more or a real contender and still be a rich man.  We aren't talking about getting rich or staying poor. We will make him a very rich guy if he stays as well.  Sure when you are poor it is all about the money but when you know in either case you are going to be rich beyond what you can easily spend, there are other considerations.  



#45 DeeJay

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:59 PM

If the raiders started getting a better front office and better management they will be a force.

 

Until then they could get Hardy,Ware and still have enough for many a franchise qb... Scary Stuff

 

What really pisses me off is once a player get a huge contract they really don't want to play the game anymore cause they are afraid to get hit...




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