Jump to content
  • Hey There!

    Please register to see fewer ads and a better viewing experience:100_Emoji_42x42:

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Matthias

For those who said slavery ended in 1865

Recommended Posts

There are, however, a lot of people that, if you don't monitor where your money goes, will immediately spend it on things that are not going to help them out of whatever predicament they are in. Your money is then doing the exact opposite of what you intended and not helpful. There's considerate, then there is foolish and counter productive. Learned from first hand experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


It's a complicated topic.    I feel morally something should be done, but I'm not sure how to handle it, or how much should be given, or what.     I also know that almost half of America (or more) would never be OK with it.

I think as a country we need to just institute UBI to at least put everyone on equal footing (I get transfer of wealth wouldn't apply here, etc).     But I'm just a dreamer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, cookinwithgas said:

There are, however, a lot of people that, if you don't monitor where your money goes, will immediately spend it on things that are not going to help them out of whatever predicament they are in. Your money is then doing the exact opposite of what you intended and not helpful. There's considerate, then there is foolish and counter productive. Learned from first hand experience.

waste is waste. people are more concerned about poor people buying a bag of weed than they are a wealthy person filling their 10 car garage with luxury cars and that goes to show that it's not about waste at all. it's about imposing your own inconsistent personal morality on others. oh, poor people don't need beer? do they need it less than, say, jamie dimon needs a private jet? how many lives could we change by seizing "his" wealth? oh, he would flee the country? what exactly would we lose by losing jamie dimon?

our society is extremely wasteful, particularly from the (white) middle up. we have created countless management jobs that don't "need" to exist but continue to exist because the alternative for the wealthy would be to eliminate those jobs thereby introducing tens of millions angry entitled formerly middle class people to their new lives of poverty, formenting revolution. management bloat is hush money. our standing army is hush money (among other things). so many resources are spent creating make-work jobs to keep the people in line. 

capitalists bleed dry the people who actually make things and perform actual labor. for what? a yacht? a vacation mansion? if you actually care about the plight of the poor then, from a societal perspective, it's clear that waste of that nature is far more "foolish and counterproductive" than however poor people choose to self medicate. and to be clear, raising taxes won't fix that. this is ingrained in the very foundation of our economy and would necessitate a dramatic, revolutionary restructuring of our society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, rodeo said:

it's not my money, as soon as i hand it over it's their money. i'm not going to leverage myself as an authority over them to make sure they're spending their money in a way i see fit. i decided to help them, not to help them "on the condition that..."

It is your money, they did nothing to earn it.  You are helping a friend in a hard place. 

When you give them money, yes it becomes there’s. But, you have a right to know you aren’t getting fuged over. 

I don’t know the situation nor your friend. And you seem like a pretty sane rational person here. So I doubt you would put yourself in a place you would have to doubt. 

But, as you must see the point lies deeper. It’s not about as on condition. It’s about you are doing the right thing, and if they aren’t. That is not fair to you or your friendship. 

If there is even an inclining of doubt which you voiced. You have the right to follow your feelings and divine the truth. As you said. You can only control what you do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Matthias said:

It would be an investment over time.  How I see it, it wouldn't be a monetary payment solely, but debt cancellation of current student loans, full tuition for the descendants of slaves the next 20 years or so, no interest home and business loans, etc.  I want a full mobilization of government resources to go into this.  As for the payment part, a figure around $20,000-$40,000 each would be a good negotiated start.

Where is the money going to come from because the government is going to do it. And neither are private corporate entities. I ask you this every time you bring this subject up and you still fail to provide any credible answer. 

Also please show where the median black household only nets 1-2K~ income.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What would be the dollar amount?  Or would this be a payment in perpetuity?

What have other western countries paid out?

Is there a common plan that exists?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Harbingers said:

Where is the money going to come from because the government is going to do it. And neither are private corporate entities. I ask you this every time you bring this subject up and you still fail to provide any credible answer. 

Also please show where the median black household only nets 1-2K~ income.

 


I assume you are talking about this:

6 hours ago, Matthias said:

The median net worth of black families in this country is $1,400-$1,700 without the family car and other depreciating assets.

 

im not sure where the figure for w/o depreciating assets comes from but median net worth is shocking less for black families.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/06/27/1-demographic-trends-and-economic-well-being/

Whites have significantly higher levels of wealth than blacks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Harbingers said:

So where does the other 20-70 grand go?

Are you talking from income?

Net worth is the accumulated value of the person - real estate, cars, stocks, cd's, cash, etc...Most income is offset by long term and short term debt.   Net Worth tends to be generational accumulations as real estate and investment assets get passed down.

 

Even in the lower and middle class brackets the gap is very apparent:

 

Wealth by income and race

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is some careful tip toeing going on here but it still basically amounts to the same tired crowing about black people spending money on Cadillac's and jewelry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TheRed said:

There is some careful tip toeing going on here but it still basically amounts to the same tired crowing about black people spending money on Cadillac's and jewelry.

Coupled with not understanding what net worth is an how its accumulated throughout generational history. 

 

Ive posted this before but I think it needs to be in this thread.  This I believe to be the most important study of our generation:


 

Quote

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

 

The study, based on anonymous earnings and demographic data for virtually all Americans now in their late 30s, debunks a number of other widely held hypotheses about income inequality. Gaps persisted even when black and white boys grew up in families with the same income, similar family structures, similar education levels and even similar levels of accumulated wealth.


 

It shows that structural racism mainly against black men is keeping this gap as big as it is.  There is incredible amount of bias that happened historically and continues that keeps black families from achieving accumulated wealth like other races have achieved.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i'm perfectly fine cutting a few F-35s out of the budget and paying more in taxes for a few years to level the playing field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Harbingers said:

It is your money, they did nothing to earn it.  You are helping a friend in a hard place. 

When you give them money, yes it becomes there’s. But, you have a right to know you aren’t getting fuged over. 

I don’t know the situation nor your friend. And you seem like a pretty sane rational person here. So I doubt you would put yourself in a place you would have to doubt. 

But, as you must see the point lies deeper. It’s not about as on condition. It’s about you are doing the right thing, and if they aren’t. That is not fair to you or your friendship. 

If there is even an inclining of doubt which you voiced. You have the right to follow your feelings and divine the truth. As you said. You can only control what you do.

Why would you need to worry about getting “fugged over” if your intentions were to help someone else out. I would think it’s not supposed to be about you. It’s about the person who’s in need of help. When I give money to help someone out, thats it. I’m no longer concerned about where it’s going or what it’s being spent on. I say all this respectfully, of course.

46 minutes ago, Harbingers said:

Where is the money going to come from because the government is going to do it. And neither are private corporate entities. I ask you this every time you bring this subject up and you still fail to provide any credible answer. 

Also please show where the median black household only nets 1-2K~ income.

 

This topic seems to upset you, as you come with this same demeaning, attacking attitude every time reparations are brought up. He’s not attacking you. He’s also provided you with plenty of information, as no one is going to have all the answers at this time. That’s why it’s being brought up, because the discussion needs to be had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Fryfan said:

Are you talking from income?

Net worth is the accumulated value of the person - real estate, cars, stocks, cd's, cash, etc...Most income is offset by long term and short term debt.   Net Worth tends to be generational accumulations as real estate and investment assets get passed down.

 

 

No, I’m talking about net worth. We have had the income discussion plenty of times before. As it’s stated African Americans make between 30~ and 80~ as a household. If they only retain 11~ as net worth. Where does the other go to? 

Let me give you a little help, 

a) They do not OWN property. Thus anything that could be considered an asset in that department is being pushed to rent. However, in fairness I’d say that’s still probably 80% of Americans? 

b) They put almost nothing into retirement.

As seen by the graph that only accounts for 401K and IRA’s not anything actively traded, pensions, government pensions, personal savings in cash. Which pushes that number a lot lower than it should be. Which is a closely tied number to the arguement that’s trying to be made. 

c) Properties(items that are not land) devalue over time for everyone. There is obviously a systemic differencial for African Americans. Since their income falls well below every other ethnicity in America.

Personally I would argue Hispanics are actually the lowest income due to their nature to work under the table and illegally cross into this country, without a means to track their statistics. They don’t have to pay taxes. So there cannot really be a set median or even average. But for this discussion that is a minuscule point. 

d) debt, everyone but the top 1% has debt of some fashion or another. Short term, Long term. Your fuging mortgage is a debt. That dime bag you from your brother is a debt. Your god damn taxes are a debt. But the key with debt, is don’t put yourself into debt to begin with. 

So where does the rest of it go? Happiness.

Prove me wrong.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Harbingers said:

No, I’m talking about net worth. We have had the income discussion plenty of times before. As it’s stated African Americans make between 30~ and 80~ as a household. If they only retain 11~ as net worth. Where does the other go to? 

Let me give you a little help, 

a) They do not OWN property. Thus anything that could be considered an asset in that department is being pushed to rent. However, in fairness I’d say that’s still probably 80% of Americans? 

b) They put almost nothing into retirement.

 

As seen by the graph that only accounts for 401K and IRA’s not anything actively traded, pensions, government pensions, personal savings in cash. Which pushes that number a lot lower than it should be. Which is a closely tied number to the arguement that’s trying to be made. 

c) Properties(items that are not land) devalue over time for everyone. There is obviously a systemic differencial for African Americans. Since their income falls well below every other ethnicity in America.

Personally I would argue Hispanics are actually the lowest income due to their nature to work under the table and illegally cross into this country, without a means to track their statistics. They don’t have to pay taxes. So there cannot really be a set median or even average. But for this discussion that is a minuscule point. 

d) debt, everyone but the top 1% has debt of some fashion or another. Short term, Long term. Your fuging mortgage is a debt. That dime bag you from your brother is a debt. Your god damn taxes are a debt. But the key with debt, is don’t put yourself into debt to begin with. 

So where does the rest of it go? Happiness.

Prove me wrong.

 

I can unpack a lot of this later but just on real estate - there is a historical aspect and the long exclusion of blacks builds to this.  Also if you own property but your debt is close to, equal or above the worth of that property it gets very little to erased from your net worth.  If you own property and dont have debt on it or little debt its a HUGE asset in terms of net worth.  There is a lot to unpack on this alone about property values and affects due to white flight in the 60's -80s.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



×