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ARSEN

Game of Thrones - Season 8

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my biggest gripes about the writing involve things like:

Why include the young Cersei prophecy scene in the show at all, if you're going to make that prophecy worthless?

Why bring back THE protagonist from absolute death once, and near-certain death at least twice, if you're going to have him be the equivalent of an extra here at the end of the series?

Why have the most powerful warg in the history of wargs do pretty much nothing with his warging powers when the going gets tough?

Why forget complete sections/characters like Dorne, Daario, The Faceless Men, Edmure Tully, The Iron Bank, Yara Greyjoy, etc. that the show has clearly included in the past? If it is because you feel rushed, then maybe you should have stuck with the 10 episodes HBO reportedly offered you to tie up the ending.

Arya just kills the biggest threat known to mankind, and she lets the Hound be a good daddy and talk her out of killing Cersei? I mean, I appreciate the scenes and actually liked them, the way they are acted, but it doesn't follow the groundwork you've laid.

Stuff like that is what I am talking about when I gripe about the writing.

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29 minutes ago, Moorgan said:

OK loved the episode. Really can't get my head around people hating the writing because it didn't go the way they wanted. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it bad? Nope. But everyone is majestic screenwriter now I guess.

Anyways, the 2 characters that I've seen the most complaints about are Dany and Jaimie. I have no issue with either character. I do think the Euron v Jaimie death match seemed a bit out of place and a little forced but it wasn't egregious or anything that I absolutely hated.

Jaimie's arc is a perfect example of how hard it is to actually change and while you can get mostly there, in the critical moment where the hard change is needed, most revert to what we know, the familiar us, the safe us and possibly the true us. It's not that we CAN'T change...but that it's damn hard to do so and Jaimie's arc isn't ruined because he failed to change. It's still a nice character arc even in his ultimate failure. He has consistently shown that would be his arc and then...boom...he did it. Again, it's hard as hell for us to fundamentally change.

As for Dany, she didn't turn out to be the hero everyone WANTED her to be (to include the actress apparently). She has been itching to burn her enemies since season 2 and has told us every chance she had. She reluctantly didn't burn King's Landing several times after the begging of her advisors. Well, now her advisors are either dead or have betrayed her...she burns KL and everyone is surprised? Why? She's been resisting being the heel for several SEASONS. Her final turn was neither abrupt nor a surprise. BUT it's not what people wanted for her. They wanted the breaker of chains to break the wheel and be a "benevolent ruler". That has a TON more to do with what people wanted than any poor writing. The people didn't get what they wanted so now the writing is terrible. Sounds more like children throwing a tantrum than any objective critique of writing ability by the writers. Lol.

I've also seen some nonsense about Tyrion. To me, his steadfast belief in Dany shows precisely how many of us have a blind spots when it comes to fatal flaws in our relationships. We see what we want to see and hope for the best because we were convinced this was the one. We saw someone at their best and believed that they could be that all the time. Turns out we were blind to who they really were and our expectations replaced what was there to see in plain sight.

Loved the rest. Varys was definitely trying to poison Dany's food. Was disturbing how carelessly and casually Dany ordered his execution. Drogon was bad ass and powerful. How I like all my dragons. War was awful. Innocent people died. Loved and hated that they made me feel pity for Cersei's humanity at the end. I wanted the more satisfying Ramsey Bolton treatment for her but it's not about what I wanted. Clegane Bowl was great and satisfying. Qyburn going quick at the hands of his monster was nice. Arya being helpless was nice too.

Great episode.

I don't really care how the story goes.  I mean we all guess things.  Would like to to see things.  Generally, my favorite shows go in ways I don't think it will go. 

I don't think you can dismiss the criticism of the show as, you just wanted Jon Snow to do X. 

Storytelling has just been bad.  That is the biggest thing.  Lot of that seems to be not just because they lack the source material but they seem to want to be done and get away from this project since they don't have it.    They shouldn't of thrown all this into one season.  For example, I got no real problem w/ them going "mad queen" w/ Dany.  But they didn't tell the story so it is believable. They just wanted to snap their fingers and have her make that transition in literally 2 episodes.   Just lazy and bad.   Jamie another example of them doing disservice to a character because they want to wrap up quick.  Not actually having beef w/ the actual story line they want to take....but they did a horrific job telling it.  How they went from Jamie from at Winterfell to the dude who was at KL last night? Just lazy and crappy storytelling. Got no problem w/ them wanting his story to go back there.  But they told it so bad it just looks like bad storytelling...not that they told us a story we didn't want to hear. 

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2 minutes ago, Bronn said:

Arya just kills the biggest threat known to mankind, and she lets the Hound be a good daddy and talk her out of killing Cersei? I mean, I appreciate the scenes and actually liked them, the way they are acted, but it doesn't follow the groundwork you've laid.

When Arya and the Hound first rode into KL on horse back she said she was there to kill the Queen. She wasn't specific in regards to which Queen.

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Yeah it has nothing to do with the books or things not ended how we thought it would.  It has everything to do with bad storytelling.  Everything is just ending abruptly with so sense of satisfaction.  I've heard writers use the term 'did we earn this moment?'  D&D didn't earned many moments this season or last.

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a perfect example of hating this pooptastic storytelling.

Jamie Lannister:  I never cared about anything of them.  Innocent or otherwise. 

Yeah, let's just forget about the whole Kingslayer thing.  And of course let's forget how he literally just said peace out to go north and fight the Night King and company.   I mean they have turned the Chewbacca Defense into their storytelling driver. 

 

 

 

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Hell Arya's whole arc has been about figuring out who she is.  It's emphasized more in the books with all the different names she takes but it's certainly in the show as well.  "My name is Arya Stark of Winterfell and I'm going home."  “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives”  "She'll never be one of us, we can't trust her"  Then she just heads off with the Hound who says "I'm not coming back" Arya replies "me neither".  WTF she does does a complete turnaround?  It's fine if she has a change of heart but we, the audience, need to be shown that.

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And we literally see the Dothraki get wiped out.  All of em.  They even say in the commentary that we just saw them get wiped out.  Now I guess they respawned and started charging into Kings Landing?

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33 minutes ago, CRA said:

I don't really care how the story goes.  I mean we all guess things.  Would like to to see things.  Generally, my favorite shows go in ways I don't think it will go. 

I don't think you can dismiss the criticism of the show as, you just wanted Jon Snow to do X. 

Storytelling has just been bad.  That is the biggest thing.  Lot of that seems to be not just because they lack the source material but they seem to want to be done and get away from this project since they don't have it.    They shouldn't of thrown all this into one season.  For example, I got no real problem w/ them going "mad queen" w/ Dany.  But they didn't tell the story so it is believable. They just wanted to snap their fingers and have her make that transition in literally 2 episodes.   Just lazy and bad.   Jamie another example of them doing disservice to a character because they want to wrap up quick.  Not actually having beef w/ the actual story line they want to take....but they did a horrific job telling it.  How they went from Jamie from at Winterfell to the dude who was at KL last night? Just lazy and crappy storytelling. Got no problem w/ them wanting his story to go back there.  But they told it so bad it just looks like bad storytelling...not that they told us a story we didn't want to hear. 

This is the take I'm referring to. They literally did the opposite of this. They've been telling you from the beginning where she was going and it feels this way TO YOU so therefore it's lazy and bad writing. I disagree.

And as for Jaimie, he's been telling you for years that he wants to be better but he will always come back to Cersei. His last lines are echoes from his lines after Tommen dies. But again it's lazy and crappy storytelling because why?

I also disagree with the whole rushed thing. From my perspective they're doing a great job ending this show. It's not going how I wanted or even predicted but I'm enjoying the ride. But you guys are perfectly allowed to have your opinions about it. As am I. I just disagree. But it's been a long emotional ride for all of us, so I get all of us getting deep, being disappointed, excited, sad, all of it.

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6 minutes ago, Moorgan said:

This is the take I'm referring to. They literally did the opposite of this. They've been telling you from the beginning where she was going and it feels this way TO YOU so therefore it's lazy and bad writing. I disagree.

And as for Jaimie, he's been telling you for years that he wants to be better but he will always come back to Cersei. His last lines are echoes from his lines after Tommen dies. But again it's lazy and crappy storytelling because why?

I also disagree with the whole rushed thing. From my perspective they're doing a great job ending this show. It's not going how I wanted or even predicted but I'm enjoying the ride. But you guys are perfectly allowed to have your opinions about it. As am I. I just disagree. But it's been a long emotional ride for all of us, so I get all of us getting deep, being disappointed, excited, sad, all of it.

maybe I am dumb.  I fail to see how your explanation makes sense. 

They didn't tell the story in a way that Dany flipping the switch sells.  They could of told that story well.  They didn't.   They made the transition to mad queen in essentially 2 episodes.   That isn't good storytelling.   Yes, the potential for her becoming the mad queen was always a predictable plot.  That is fine if they went there.   Calling the play doesn't then mean the storytelling isn't needed. 

They didn't tell Jamie's story well.  They literally poo all over 8 seasons worth of storytelling on Jamie.  There was more to Jamie than just the Cersei relationship.  Again, I got no beef if they want Cersei to be the drug he just can never quit.  They told that part of the story horribly.  

all just feels rushed.  Feels like they needed probably 2 more seasons in order for the conclusion of this story to be on par w/ what the series as a whole was.   Basically feels like a bunch of highlights thrown together.   All the real storytelling is to be assumed. 

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To reiterate. Lets analyze both times the scorpions were used before.

The first time the scorpion was a surprise tactic that almost took out Drogon at the Lannister army caravan.  That really doesn't need anymore explaining.

The second time the ships were waiting in a bay behind cover where they were not seen at had time to make their shots as an ambush tatic.

The third time, the everyone is complaining about, Dany rode Drogon ABOVE the clouds and dropped straight down giving very little chance for all of the scorpions to fire.  Drogon only had to dodge  2 bolts before he was on the ships and too close for them to swivel/ aim.  I dragon flying roughing however many fuggin miles per hour left to right and this way and that...yeah heavy scorpions will not  have a chance to turn and fire and honestly when she charged the ambush in scenario 2 she only had to make it past the first wave to get the same results but she chickened out.

 

As for the walls she went around the main assortment of defenses and flew into the city and hit the gates from behind.... I really dont know how to explain it much better.  Without rewatching  I don't believe they covered 100% of the cities walls the way its laid out there is only one area to attack from land.  ALL of the defenses were aimed there.  Tactical error on Cersi and the Golden Companys part because they relied on the Iron fleet to keep the harbor safe....I mean the show is not going to explain all of this to you.   You have to make some observations yourself.  It would have been suicide for Drogon to take the main gate head on with all those scorpions up there.  The book would probably explain this scenario to the reader but a movie/show would not.  

 

ps sorry for typos and whatnot @work can't be round here too long.

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not sure if it's been posted yet or not but I saw somewhere where George R.R. Martin was basically saying the show should be at least three more seasons to do the characters any justice. He talked about how each character would have chapter upon chapter devoted to their story, but in the show they are extremely limited to development with such a rushed final season. He also said he understands certain things are beyond the show creators control, such as actors contracts and HBOs demands.

All that said I can't help but feel like the entire series is ending with a thud. What made the show so fantastic the first 5-6 seasons has pretty much gone away. Maybe it will hold up when taken as one body of work and we are being greedy, only time will tell.

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12 minutes ago, CRA said:

They didn't tell the story in a way that Dany flipping the switch sells.  They could of told that story well.  They didn't.   They made the transition to mad queen in essentially 2 episodes.   That isn't good storytelling.   Yes, the potential for her becoming the mad queen was always a predictable plot.  That is fine if they went there.   Calling the play doesn't then mean the storytelling isn't needed.

All of this is true.

I can't help but think TPTB wanted everyone to be shocked at Dany's sudden heel turn. Another Red Wedding moment, if you will. So we didn't get to see her slowly turn. At least not as well as we should have.

Part of the problem with GOT is that it's always moved slowly. The last 2 seasons' "sprint to the finish" feels off from what has come before.

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10 minutes ago, CRA said:

maybe I am dumb.  I fail to see how your explanation makes sense. 

They didn't tell the story in a way that Dany flipping the switch sells.  They could of told that story well.  They didn't.   They made the transition to mad queen in essentially 2 episodes.   That isn't good storytelling.   Yes, the potential for her becoming the mad queen was always a predictable plot.  That is fine if they went there.   Calling the play doesn't then mean the storytelling isn't needed. 

They didn't tell Jamie's story well.  They literally poo all over 8 seasons worth of storytelling on Jamie.  There was more to Jamie than just the Cersei relationship.  Again, I got no beef if they want Cersei to be the drug he just can never quit.  They told that part of the story horribly.  

all just feels rushed.  Feels like they needed probably 2 more seasons in order for the conclusion of this story to be on par w/ what the series as a whole was.   Basically feels like a bunch of highlights thrown together.   All the real storytelling is to be assumed. 

Maybe that's the difference. They've been telling her story about becoming the heel for years. I don't know what you thought of her 3 episodes ago but I always thought she was turning heel. Not because I'm smart but because she's always threatening burning everyone since season 2. She actually does it quite often. She wasn't mother Theresa and became Satan 2 episodes ago. They've been telling her story of falling from potential since the beginning. I don't see any dramatic shift in her character in the last 2 episodes. Traumatic events happened in the last 2 episodes (dragon dying, friend dying, armies getting decimated, lost Jon, lost claim to the throne, all of her advisors and lover have betrayed her). Yeah that's a lot to go through but those are just the final catalysts for what has always been coming and they've been telling that story for years.

And what about Jaimie's story is horribly written? You said it. She's the drug he can't quit. What is so bad about his story that you understand it but don't like how it was done? How does it get done better? No. Not better. How is it that it is told so that it's horrible? I just think that everyone is overly harsh because it's ending and we're all emotional. He went back to Cersei time after time saying he can't quit her. He tries one last hand at having a normal life and fails and goes back to the drug. How is that horrible writing?

I'm not prepared to call the show the GOAT but I feel like it's getting an unfair amount of criticism. That's all I'm saying.

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1 hour ago, Darth Biscuit said:

I'm not sure I follow...  There have been a ton of things that have felt rushed and glossed over and I don't buy the "explanation" as given earlier, it's flimsy at best...  

I don't. I thought while watching how it was fairly obvious that Dany and her dragon had made obvious tactical changes to neutralize the scorpions.

 

Also, I laugh at people upset with Jamie. Anyone hoping for some realized redemption arc for an emotionally dominated, subservient sister fuger haven't been paying attention. Jamie has never changed, he's been the same character since season one.

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5 minutes ago, Floppin said:

I don't. I thought while watch how it was fairly obvious that Dany and her dragon had made obvious tactical changes to neutralize the scorpions.

 

Also I laugh at people upset with Jamie. Anyone hoping for some realized redemption arc for an emotionally dominated, subservient sister fuger haven't been paying attention. Jamie has never changed, he's been the same character since season one.

...but she really didn't tho.

Sure, she flew out of the sun at first... but after that, she just flew around fast and blew them up.

I'm glad y'all thought it was great, and like I said, it was the best ep of the season imo as well, but that part really baffled me.  It seemed like a lazy way to just feed Dany's decent into madness.

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