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electro's horse

The rebuild is here. It's time.

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This season is 2009 all over again. If we keep cam and Ron next year will be 2010. Hire a new coach, blow this poo up and reload for 2020 and beyond.

Edited by Sean Payton's Vicodin

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The panther have a lot going for them, the biggest being an owner who hopefully doesn’t drag poo out like JR did.

Hopefully Tepper sees what needs to change and changes it vs. changing some of it while ignoring most of it.

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3 minutes ago, imminent rogaine said:

Step 1: Bruce Arians 

Step 2: Super Bowl

Not happening. The only team he's interested in coaching is the one that beat us today.

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15 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

The Panthers had a good run under Ron. A landscape that was already shifting towards favoring the offensive side of the ball culminated in an avalanche of new rules favoring the QB, WRs, and offensive playcallers. Ron, together with a very talented core of players, resisted change for most of his run. They even managed to come close to winning a super bowl.

But much like the sand castle resisting the tide, inevitability in inevitable. In the words of the mad titan..

 

 

In 2009, the Panthers lied to themselves and believed their window was still open. They doubled down on several key players who were past their primes, completely checked out, or both. The following season was a disaster, and directly led to the 2010 season which was damn near winless. It's that time again. 

We're going to quickly run through this. I will start with the less controversial 

Skill Position on offense

I'm lumping TE, WR, RB, etc into this because right now the Panthers are probably the most talented and promising they've been since 2003. What's more, they're all young. The NFL is hammer down on offense, and the Panthers have an embarrassment of riches at the positions that matter. With competent coaching they're more than fine here. All they need are depth signings here and there, but the hard part is done. 

the less said about devin the better.

status = just fine

d line

woof. The Panthers are old and average across it. They're likely tied to KK for the foreseeable future due to his contract, and mario addison is a...nice player, but everyone else can go. Addison would be best served as a rotational guy, peppers needs to retire, poe is a dude, and everyone else is just fluff. There's a tendency among fans to always think their young guys are HOFers being held back by coaches, and this is not the case for Odaba. He's a dude. 

this is where the Panthers need to focus their draft. They don't just need starters, they need YOUNG ones. the Panthers are old as heck on defense, and offenses are just getting faster. You don't get younger by finding hungry vets. 

Defense in the nfl now is predicated upon disrupting the QB immediately. The days of keeping things in front of you and hoping the QB makes a bad decision are over. All the QBs are too good now, the rules too favorable. You have to be able to attack the QB up front and fast. Carolina either needs that all world DE, or that all world DT that can disrupt. 

Vernon Butler is just useless.

So yeah. It's dire. At least 2 new starters, and that's being favorable to Addison who I don't think very highly of. 

status = primary focus of the draft

offensive line

I don't think we're in bad shape here, honestly. I think the Panthers need to get healthy. if you resign williams, you've got your tackles, you have trai, larsen has an inside track to start at center, draft another couple lineman and find a good free agent. offensive lines are very dependent on scheme, and flow, and chemistry etc. There's going to be a tearful retirement (enjoy the studio, Ryan) and a certain left tackle needs to have....an accident...but there's a lot here to like. 

Secondary

I don't think the Panthers are as bad here as they appear. The Panthers secondary is suffering from mismatched players and an outdated scheme. However, I've seen several things that make me think the actual talent is there. I've stated in other threads that Eric Reid has shown himself to be a good player, just out of position. It's just that the Panthers have him paired with Mike Adams and Captain Munnerlyn, who are both slower than him. For the entirety of the Rivera run, he has devalued the safety position, and it's coming into glaring focus this season the game has passed this mindset by. It's too easy for offenses to take advantage of your run stopping nickel back, and it's too easy for them to go over the top against hard hitting free safeties. 

donte Jackson looks good, and I actually like Bradberry a lot, but arguing about him is a thread into itself so let's all just agree to disagree there.

status = legit free safety, legit nickel, legit scheme. not hopeless.

linebackers

The Panthers have had good linebackers since time immemorial. I want to move on from Davis, but my god the guy just doesn't stop. He's still consistently the hardest hitting player out there. However, Luke is older and the new administration can't depend on him being a defensive mvp anymore. The brunt of the defense needs to shift into the line. I don't think this affects luke at all, since if we improve the D line it'll boost his game up. But what we're seeing now is how vulnerable the linebacker position is weaknesses in other parts of the defense. Unlike on the d line, where they can get to the qb no matter what, the LBs can be negated by poor d line play. The Panthers have overinvested in the LB corps over the year, and we're seeing that now. 

Obviously I have no qualms about Luke or Davis in this regard, but I don't feel great about shaq. He's an...okay player, just not one I think the team should commit to long term. The light has never fully come on for him. otoh, he's young and under team control. Who knows, he's a complicated player.

status: you can't rebuild everything at once, and if you're going to roll the dice somewhere, you do it here. 

coaching

I don't know how controversial this is, and I think it deserves its own thread, but I'll give an abridged version. Things change. Ron didn't. The coach that can constantly reinvent himself is rare. Belichick has had a bottom tier defense for years, but has constantly reinvented himself to stay ahead of the trend set by the league. When Bill Polian got butt sad and had the rules changed to favor his QB, belichick lost in the playoffs then put together the best offense the nfl had ever seen. 

Ron is not that person. If he is coach next season, he will go in to it trying to win games 24 - 20, with an offense calling plays with one second left on the playclock that vanishes in the third quarter. He'll try to run out the clock in the second half, and give up every lead he has. 

there's a billion reasons to fire ron, they've been stated a million times, it doesn't need to be rehashed. 

It's time for the pasture. The only thing protecting him to this point has been an owner stuck in the same era as him. Now though? 

status: promote him to a FO position, don't humiliate him, give him a bullshit title. But everyone is gone. 

cam

i dunno guys. 

cam hasn't really aged the way i hope he would. I knew that the "use cam as lead runner" shula offense was short lived, and the panthers stuck with it for a year longer than they should have. but he hasn't really turned into that roethlisberger statue i was hoping for. 

Cam has always had his drawbacks and positive. This year was very hopeful, as he's cut down on the running and picked up the passing, but the shoulder injury is troubling. 

I'm not saying he's done. but it is worth considering if he's never going to fully heal. 

Cam right now is not an nfl QB, I'm sorry to say. The lack of deep ball makes things too easy for the defenses, and no matter how many rules the NFL is giving for the QB, you can't overcome that. 11 people guarding a space 20 yards long are going to do it.

Much of this is going to depend on how Cam approaches his impending offseason surgery. If he again opts for the less invasive procedure, so he can go on his birthday trips to some tropical destination, we'll be in this same position next year; a qb with inconsistent mechanics who can't throw deep and no one wants to run anymore. 

Cam was never going to be a Drew Brees, but he made up for that with other attributes. But those attributes don't really mesh with the modern NFL, or with a player you want playing long term. 

status: eeeeeeeeesh

conclusion

Panthers window closed on a thursday night against Pittsburgh. But windows open pretty easily, and things can change quickly in the NFL. sean mcvay was a 31 year old joke hire until he was the hottest name in coaching. 

Who do you want trying to reopen that window? certainly not ron, on that we can all agree. 

i dunno man. I think the Panthers have more going for them than most. But the next coach will come in with cam, strengths/weaknesses/injuries included. 

Promote Rivera?

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Interestingly enough, La Canfora says that numerous sources close to McCarthy and Browns GM John Dorsey that they view this pairing as “far less than a slam dunk or sure thing” despite their prior experience working together.

La Canfora’s sources believe it’s “more likely” McCarthy does not end up with the Browns -->and the Panthers and Ravens’ jobs would have more appeal to him if they’re available.

--> Panthers and Ravens jobs would actually have the highest appeal to the coach, if they were to open up, and they do not discount the prospects of him sitting out a year if he doesn't feel the right connection with a franchise and its ownership.

"Mike is not going to take a job just to take a job," said one of his close friends.

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3 minutes ago, NcPsa10 said:

Interestingly enough, La Canfora says that numerous sources close to McCarthy and Browns GM John Dorsey that they view this pairing as “far less than a slam dunk or sure thing” despite their prior experience working together.

La Canfora’s sources believe it’s “more likely” McCarthy does not end up with the Browns -->and the Panthers and Ravens’ jobs would have more appeal to him if they’re available.

--> Panthers and Ravens jobs would actually have the highest appeal to the coach, if they were to open up, and they do not discount the prospects of him sitting out a year if he doesn't feel the right connection with a franchise and its ownership.

"Mike is not going to take a job just to take a job," said one of his close friends.

Only thing that worries me with McCarthy is he also seemed slow to adjust over his tenure in GB.  And he completely neglected the defense pretty much every year.

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10 minutes ago, Ace_Aladdin said:

I rather have Lane Kiffen

Seriously?

Also, if the Ravens let Haurbaugh go I hope we go get him.

Edited by Shocker
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Right thinking but wayyyyy off and a lot of misdirected QB haterade.

the DB are terrible,.. need a whole new secondary. 

Edge— this is where we are weakest. Many blame Poe and Short for the extreme outside weakness we have. 

QB has to get healthy. And like Phily we need a quality backup that can win games if cam goes out.

this is too much hate— Aaron Rodgers just went through surgery— Andrew luck was out forever ever with surgery and so have others.

cams tough and will be back. Jeez how fast fans flip— or how the lurking haters that didn’t want him in the first place in 2010 are surfacing with their chance— wastes of sperm

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And for the most part, I agree with fiz.  I hope Cam goes to whatever lengths he needs to, no matter how invasive or the projected recovery time, to get his shoulder back 100%.  He has to be able to throw deep again, AND be able to run when needed (and I suspect his shoulder is why he has run a lot less this season as well).  I know it looks and feels bad right now, but with modern medicine, even with how complex the shoulder is, I don't see why he can't get back to 100%... BUT, i anticipate he may miss all, if not most of next season recovering.  And that's fine with me as i just want him healthy.

In terms of the roster, i agree WR, TE, and HB are an embarrassment of riches.  What needs to be addressed, in order, imo:

Coach

DL (pass rushers.  Hello Okwara from ND)

CB (Munnerlyn, Bradberry, depth)

A FS with RANGE (keep Reid as SS)

OLB

Guards, Tackle depth

A stop-gap QB that can start and play in case Cam is still recovering from surgery.

 

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The problem is that this team was a few plays away from having 8-10 wins right now.  And if Cam wasn't injured he probably saves Ron's ass and makes those plays.

This team right now is all too similar to a John Fox team that relies on it's stars to carry a backwards scheme and philosophy. The failure of 3rd and longs on offense and defense have always haunted us since the Delhomme days.  What upsets me is that this team far too talented in the right areas to be like that.

We really need an offensive minded head coach. One that has a feel for the game in the moment because Ron obviously doesn't and he can't challenge calls for poo. He's known Gano is a crap kicker for 3 years and didn't do anything about, wait no he cut the guy he drafted to replace him that's right. 

I still believe in Cam. He's not playing well I can acknowledge that right now. But the playcalling is also horrible and our passing game is so repetitive. We either PA, run a convoluted screen pass to CMC, or call shotgun. We get too tricky at the wrong times.

Funchess has been a complete disappointment as well. Just a crap year for the team and I think its mostly on Rivera, his blame shifting and attitude, and players not buying it or pressing too hard to make things happen. Also promoting of Eric Washington was a bonehead move.

Edited by OneBadCat
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6 minutes ago, JARROD said:

Right thinking but wayyyyy off and a lot of misdirected QB haterade.

the DB are terrible,.. need a whole new secondary. 

Edge— this is where we are weakest. Many blame Poe and Short for the extreme outside weakness we have. 

QB has to get healthy. And like Phily we need a quality backup that can win games if cam goes out.

this is too much hate— Aaron Rodgers just went through surgery— Andrew luck was out forever ever with surgery and so have others.

cams tough and will be back. Jeez how fast fans flip— or how the lurking haters that didn’t want him in the first place in 2010 are surfacing with their chance— wastes of sperm

Agree about Cam, and yes, i suspect a lot of the trolls were anti-cam guys from pre-2011.

As far as the DL man, idk...  certainly, we need edge rushers, but the lack of push up the middle has little to do with that...  even in one on ones, the DTs are getting nothing going.  Short is looking like a bad investment and Poe is kind of inconsequential without dominant pieces around him.

 

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This team is not in rebuild mode. Draft or trade for an elite pass rusher and maybe a LT and this is a playoff team next year. 

Cam is not done, but the end is nearer than many of us thought. 

People that blame RR for Cams injuries need to stop. RR tried Cam the pocket passer to preserve his health and we all saw that this didn’t work. Even Cam publicly said that he needed to be Cam and run the ball. 

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