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Gettleman is getting absolutely destroyed by national media... STILL

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34 minutes ago, Moo Daeng said:

He shined when being cheap was a requirement. He never transitioned out of that. He kept being cheap for the sake of being cheap.

couldn’t disagree more

we saw him invest a ton of money in newton, kuechly, short, and extend oher, coleman, addison, davis, olsen, and well, sigh, but he did invest a ton into matt kalil.

you can’t re-sign every single player that hits free agency and we had hot players hitting the market at a rate that we didn’t see before gettleman was around. that’s pretty much the point of a salary cap. it’s designed to level out the amount of funds each team has to invest in their roster.

Edited by frash.exe

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1 hour ago, Cracka McNasty said:

And they were such a powerhouse doing that all those years they went 7-9 weren't they?

NO does it because they have an aging all time great QB and are screwed the moment he hangs it up anyway. Might as well kick that can down the road as long as possible until Breesus can't suit up any more. We had a prime career QB to pay for, a potential GOAT LB, and -17 million to do it with when Gettleman took over back in 2013. Had we kicked the can down the road, we wouldn't have made the super bowl in 2015.  Say what you want about Gettleman's demeanor, but he set the team up nice financially for the future while still maintaining a competitive team each year. 

Asking a couple of bum tackles to protect your “Prime career QB” could be considered even more dangerous to the success of your franchise than kicking the can down the road on your cap. Cam WAS our franchise. At what point are you okay with stepping in and manipulating the cap, if not to protect your franchise QB?

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@frash.exe is 100% spot on in regards to Olsen. I've been saying it since at least December. Even if Greg thinks he can go again, we should have at least looked into a backup plan.

Right now, we're looking at Thomas having to start again, which okay might not be so bad, but then you've still got Manhertz and a bunch of guys that nobody knows what they can do, and who likely won't get a legit look until we're in a dire situation.

I'd rather have forced Olsen into retirement/injury settlement w/e and moved on when we could rather than put all our eggs in one basket. I love the dude and everything he's done for us, but that leg scares me. He's younger than me, and an athlete, so I can't really say much. But, father time doesn't make healing any easier.

Throw him a party, put him in the ring of honor, and add him to our own commentary team or whatever, but I feel like he's in a ticking time bomb situation. I hope I'm wrong, and I will be glad I am and eat the crow. But, one could have a solid argument that Marty didn't make the move he should have made in regards to Olsen this offseason.

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2 hours ago, Cracka McNasty said:

In Gettleman's defense, that offseason we were completely hamstrung by Hurney's horrible contracts and Bell and Chandler were being paid what they were worth, which was next to nothing. They were, financially speaking, our only options at the time. 

He forced Gross into retirement.. That was the problem..

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1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

Asking a couple of bum tackles to protect your “Prime career QB” could be considered even more dangerous to the success of your franchise than kicking the can down the road on your cap. Cam WAS our franchise. At what point are you okay with stepping in and manipulating the cap, if not to protect your franchise QB?

https://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/10/5396156/where-every-nfl-team-stands-cap-wise-at-this-point

When that blog entry went up on February 2nd, 2014, the Carolina Panthers had only $15M in cap space after the team had gone 12-4 with Gross and Bell. Gross had another year on his contract but retired, saying that he felt that the team was in good enough hands. The team would have marched out with the same two OTs that they had just gone 12-4 with (something they then tried to do in 2016 after going 15-1, but Michael Oher's concussion happened and well... that led to Matt Kalil being signed...).

From that $15M, they had to account for the following free agent losses prior to Gross retiring:
S Mike Mitchell
CB Captain Munnerlyn
WR Steve Smith
WR Ted Ginn Jr
WR Brandon LaFell
DB Charles Godfrey
DB Drayton Florence
LB Jordan Senn
TE Ben Hartsock

So a new FS, SS, LT, Nickel, CB, ST LB, TE2, WR1, WR2, and WR3. Team goes out and signs Cotchery, Avant, and Underwood before drafting Benjamin (and signing Philly as a UDFA). They bring in Thomas DeCoud and Roman Harper to replace the safeties. Ed Dickson and Kyle Love are both signed. Joe Webb is signed and DA is retained to back up Cam (which ended up being the right move, since Cam would later fracture his vertebra in a car crash). You're looking at nearly $10.65M in contracts trying to restock the team with less than $5M to go out and sign an OT. Michael Oher got paid that season and he brought in $6M which the team couldn't afford. Donald Penn got $5M. Nevermind that this less than $5M remaining from the cap now needed to also be stretched to include the incoming rookie draft class.

It's important to not misrepresent history by over generalizing, as well as to not assume that the "obvious answer" was even available. Those bad contracts that Hurney gave out had over $100M locked up between 5 players. 19 players accounted for over $100M of the 2015 salary cap. https://www.derp/2013/3/18/4118964/reasons-not-to-sweat-the-panthers-2015-salary-cap

Team still went 15-1 and to the Super Bowl despite all of that handicapping.

Edited by Icege
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15 hours ago, frash.exe said:

the beason extension had one of the worst payoffs in team history and you can prove that mathematically. two seasons on IR and a whole lot of dead money. for unforeseen injuries? for JR trying to make a point about not being cheap after being so cheap that it completely ruined the 2010 campaign? maybe mostly the former and a little bit but quite certainly the latter as well? up to your own judgment. but the guaranteed money was gone the minute beason signed his name and he ended up as one of our highest paid players while spending most of his time dealing with injuries.

it’s also worth stating that marty pretty much drafted his replacement in the top 10 in the draft less than a year from the outset of the contract. we all knew that luke’s true position was in the middle from the minute he was drafted and that’s where beason was lining up and neither of them were going to be playing as good shifted to the side. beason’s achilles recovery went from being his primary concern to the icing on the cake. he was being pushed out of his role here way before gettleman was brought in. all he really did as you said was expedite the process so that beason maybe could seize a better opportunity to start somewhere. naturally he caught flack for it.

and on that note, a word about mike minter bc the only time @TheRed seems to even care to mention him is when he’s referencing this one time where i made an off the cuff remark about his retirement. the story goes like this...

mike minter, a reliable and solid player for a good amount of years. but in 2006, it was clear that his best days were behind him. i distinctly remember his age really showing in the MNF dallas game...anyway, the whole offseason marty does nothing to bolster the FS spot bc everybody expects minter to come back and play another year based on him just telling the team he wants to return i guess.

he shows up to camp in july, realizes his knees are shot, decides to retire a week later. not a dry eye in the press conference. a very sentimental send off. but what did it cost? nothing really except for the fact that where we thought we had stable positional depth there was now a huge hole. and of course there’s nothing hurney could do at this point bc it’s august, so deke cooper becomes the incumbent starter and hurney picks up marquand manuel off waivers. 

deke cooper

marquand manuel

we now know that delhomme was lost by the end of september and it was going to be a rough season anyway, but in either case, i mean anybody can say what they want about gettleman but he would’ve prevented that. minter probably wouldn’t have gone out on his own terms, but therein lies the conundrum where i prompt the huddle that it’s a simple order of priority. 

do you prefer it that the organization focuses primarily on being a consistent contender and maybe have some your press conferences and retirement parties if they don’t interfere, or do you really need your walt disney fantasy endings so bad that it shouldn’t matter that the overall performance on the field suffers? they both can’t be equal. 

i see a similar situation possibly playing out with olsen. he’s been a fantastic player, but at the risk of sounding like a douchebag who hates players (wink wink) he’s 34 and has been plagued by foot injuries for the last two seasons. olsen has flirted around with the idea of joining gameday broadcast booths, but with the way free agency and the draft played out, and virtually no viable TEs left on the market, it’s clear that hurney is leaving the fate of the TE position in 2019 up to olsen and his own physical well being (i hope i’m not being too insensitive here). 

like my gut instinct is to be very skeptical about how this is set up but that must mean i need to check to see if i still have a soul bc i don’t want to question the players or say i told you so if they let us down. i was told in no uncertain terms that i was a monster for thinking like that. @TheRed please advise.

Why are we talking about 2010?

I think the biggest issue is you don't treat discussions like Hurney's horrific drafts with the same kind of kids gloves that you do with Gettleman's. If you want the gut punching truth, both GM's have held this franchise back as much as they pushed it forward.

As far as Olsen and Davis, if that's truly how you feel then we don't have much to argue about with that. But let's be clear. You have pulled a 180 here on that from a few years ago when DG was fired. You went overboard. If you want me to dig up the posts I will. But I don't want to interrupt your little pie party with your south park gif pals.

As far as where things are now with the TE position, there's really no way you can't acknowledge that we've neglected adding youth to learn from Olsen the last several years. The man was practically teflon as far as health. Remember that scare we had in what was it 2015? We got really lucky with him. But we took it for granted, now we're facing a bleak reality.

Beyond all that, the Walt Disney press conference stuff you're going on about isn't anything I've ever argued for. I've supported players past and present, but when they are let go respectfully I accept it. TD being the most recent example. It will be the same for Olsen.

Edited by TheRed
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1 hour ago, Icege said:

https://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/10/5396156/where-every-nfl-team-stands-cap-wise-at-this-point

When that blog entry went up on February 2nd, 2014, the Carolina Panthers had only $15M in cap space after the team had gone 12-4 with Gross and Bell. Gross had another year on his contract but retired, saying that he felt that the team was in good enough hands. The team would have marched out with the same two OTs that they had just gone 12-4 with (something they then tried to do in 2016 after going 15-1, but Michael Oher's concussion happened and well... that led to Matt Kalil being signed...).

From that $15M, they had to account for the following free agent losses prior to Gross retiring:
S Mike Mitchell
CB Captain Munnerlyn
WR Steve Smith
WR Ted Ginn Jr
WR Brandon LaFell
DB Charles Godfrey
DB Drayton Florence
LB Jordan Senn
TE Ben Hartsock

So a new FS, SS, LT, Nickel, CB, ST LB, TE2, WR1, WR2, and WR3. Team goes out and signs Cotchery, Avant, and Underwood before drafting Benjamin (and signing Philly as a UDFA). They bring in Thomas DeCoud and Roman Harper to replace the safeties. Ed Dickson and Kyle Love are both signed. Joe Webb is signed and DA is retained to back up Cam (which ended up being the right move, since Cam would later fracture his vertebra in a car crash). You're looking at nearly $10.65M in contracts trying to restock the team with less than $5M to go out and sign an OT. Michael Oher got paid that season and he brought in $6M which the team couldn't afford. Donald Penn got $5M. Nevermind that this less than $5M remaining from the cap now needed to also be stretched to include the incoming rookie draft class.

It's important to not misrepresent history by over generalizing, as well as to not assume that the "obvious answer" was even available. Those bad contracts that Hurney gave out had over $100M locked up between 5 players. 19 players accounted for over $100M of the 2015 salary cap. https://www.derp/2013/3/18/4118964/reasons-not-to-sweat-the-panthers-2015-salary-cap

Team still went 15-1 and to the Super Bowl despite all of that handicapping.

None of that is relevant to the topic I was discussing though. I’m not saying we had the available cash to sign an OT, I’m asking when is it okay to restructure contracts to free up cap space, if not to protect your franchise QB? The guy I was responding to was essentially saying that restructuring contracts would kick the can down the road, potentially mortgaging our future. I’m asking, is starting two terrible OTs to protect our franchise superstar QB not considered potentially mortgaging our future? Should we have addressed a very real, present danger to the franchise, even if it meant potentially creating a later problem to address in the future?

If the wiring in your house is bad and you’re looking at potentially starting a house fire if this goes unfixed in the next year, but you don’t have the money to fix it...do you just do nothing and hope for the best? Or do you take out a loan to fix it, even if it means you’re gonna be spending the next several years trying to pay it back with interest?

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4 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

Asking a couple of bum tackles to protect your “Prime career QB” could be considered even more dangerous to the success of your franchise than kicking the can down the road on your cap. Cam WAS our franchise. At what point are you okay with stepping in and manipulating the cap, if not to protect your franchise QB?

Exactly. 

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47 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

None of that is relevant to the topic I was discussing though. I’m not saying we had the available cash to sign an OT, I’m asking when is it okay to restructure contracts to free up cap space, if not to protect your franchise QB? The guy I was responding to was essentially saying that restructuring contracts would kick the can down the road, potentially mortgaging our future. I’m asking, is starting two terrible OTs to protect our franchise superstar QB not considered potentially mortgaging our future? Should we have addressed a very real, present danger to the franchise, even if it meant potentially creating a later problem to address in the future?

If the wiring in your house is bad and you’re looking at potentially starting a house fire if this goes unfixed in the next year, but you don’t have the money to fix it...do you just do nothing and hope for the best? Or do you take out a loan to fix it, even if it means you’re gonna be spending the next several years trying to pay it back with interest?

All of it is relevant to the topic you are discussing because you are asking "Why couldn't we just make salary cap room like the Saints do?" That question cannot be answered without looking at available cap space as well as future contract values. It's literally what got Hurney fired, because he fuged up the wiring in the metaphorical house you mentioned due to awful contracts and pushing the buck upon future Panthers squads. Gettleman spent almost his entire time getting the team's salary cap back in order, hence the bargain basement free agents.

Was starting two terrible OTs bad for Cam? Yea. Was that the plan? No. Gross leaving suddenly caused Bell to slide over to LT and Chandler, who had just converted from DT, converted over to RT, started because Garry Williams also broke his ankle. Chandler ended up being IR'd for the last 7 games and Mike Remmers took over at RT. Remmers, while not great and got destroyed by Von Miller, also started the entire season on the right side when we went 15-1 so he had to be at the very least a decent stop-gap.

Looking at the market place for OTs and taking into account the availability and prices, what you are adamant about being possible simply wasn't.

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There's only one reality about this in 2019. That is there are a handful of staunch Gettleman supporters left here who will pity pie each other in threads where his name is mentioned as they gorge themselves on a gallon of ice cream and reminisce about what once was.

The rest of the fans know what's up.

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2 hours ago, TheRed said:

Why are we talking about 2010?

I think the biggest issue is you don't treat discussions like Hurney's horrific drafts with the same kind of kids gloves that you do with Gettleman's. If you want the gut punching truth, both GM's have held this franchise back as much as they pushed it forward.

As far as Olsen and Davis, if that's truly how you feel then we don't have much to argue about with that. But let's be clear. You have pulled a 180 here on that from a few years ago when DG was fired. You went overboard. If you want me to dig up the posts I will. But I don't want to interrupt your little pie party with your south park gif pals.

As far as where things are now with the TE position, there's really no way you can't acknowledge that we've neglected adding youth to learn from Olsen the last several years. The man was practically teflon as far as health. Remember that scare we had in what was it 2015? We got really lucky with him. But we took it for granted, now we're facing a bleak reality.

Beyond all that, the Walt Disney press conference stuff you're going on about isn't anything I've ever argued for. I've supported players past and present, but when they are let go respectfully I accept it. TD being the most recent example. It will be the same for Olsen.

i’m talking about 2010 bc ppl want to talk about history on here. bc things that used to be considered ancient history are now relevant again when you bring an executive’s dead career back to life. if you have a problem with longtime players getting mistreated on the way out, you might want to go back to the 2010 offseason when brad hoover basically found out he was cut while on a team charity cruise. i don’t think gettleman handled a release as bad as that. then again, brad didn’t go off on a tirade into every live mic he could find after he was let go. this was also when twitter was basically new and you didn’t have every player and their families on there with a blue tick. 

if you wanna go back and dig up posts i can save you a little bit of the trouble. do i remember making mean comments about olsen and davis specifically? no, not really.  i used to make jokes about dwill eating pizza rolls, some of the comments i’ve made regarding players’ egos and it’s p obvious i think steve smith is an asshole, which he p much is. but i don’t think i ever called a player a “retarded dick licker” if you want to go there. i think you coined that one a few years back.

about greg, it’s not like 1000 yard TEs are falling off trees but you kinda have to know a player’s mind is starting to look at what’s beyond football when he starts musing about the possibility of sportscasting. i don’t think you need to make a 3 year developmental project out of it either. you might be able to get a few hundred yards out of a rookie, and unless they’re clueless and barely know where to line up, or a very average athlete, that’s probably what they’re going to get whether or not they have a veteran to bounce off of. 

about gettleman drafts, i’ve said it a million times how he misses like everybody else does. most of my issues with what ppl say don’t have anything to do with gettleman directly, like the thousands upon thousands of personal attacks made against him. i rly don’t care about that part. it has everything to do with the flourishing of delusional posters on here that are constantly rewriting history to make themselves feel better about having a bad GM... like how the huddle somehow considers the otah trade justified even though it triggered a shitstorm of bad personnel moves... or as someone said to me a page or two back how a 3rd string safety starting for an entire season paid off really well. bc they don’t want to think that we downgraded to a lesser GM. maybe this doesn’t have much to do with gettleman. maybe they’re trying to convince themselves that the fate of the team is in good hands. maybe that’s the reason his drafts are constantly compared with dave’s. not like dave bats 1.000, but nothing he did ever did in the draft was as bad as marty’s track record in the draft during the four years of abysmal seasons we were put through between 2008 and 2012.

Edited by frash.exe

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Look man. I like Brad Hoover, but he wasn't even in the same stratosphere as a player like Steve Smith. Who's gonna flip out over cutting a fullback? 

I'm not even gonna go down the comparing failures rabbit hole anymore. There are no draft picks or acquisitions from 2010 affecting the Panthers roster for 2019. It has no relevance.

Gettleman's name is still relevant here because Matt Kalil's dead cap hit around our neck and the failure of a number of his 1st and 2nd not so long ago draft picks are affecting our abilities to field an effective roster this season. I don't think that's unreasonable, it goes with the territory of being an executive.

I won't argue at all that Greg Olsen needs to make a long term decision this season, and be done with it once and for all. He's an intelligent charismatic guy, he has a number of quality options post football. But you can only delay the inevitable for so long.

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44 minutes ago, Icege said:

All of it is relevant to the topic you are discussing because you are asking "Why couldn't we just make salary cap room like the Saints do?" That question cannot be answered without looking at available cap space as well as future contract values. It's literally what got Hurney fired, because he fuged up the wiring in the metaphorical house you mentioned due to awful contracts and pushing the buck upon future Panthers squads. Gettleman spent almost his entire time getting the team's salary cap back in order, hence the bargain basement free agents.

Was starting two terrible OTs bad for Cam? Yea. Was that the plan? No. Gross leaving suddenly caused Bell to slide over to LT and Chandler, who had just converted from DT, converted over to RT, started because Garry Williams also broke his ankle. Chandler ended up being IR'd for the last 7 games and Mike Remmers took over at RT. Remmers, while not great and got destroyed by Von Miller, also started the entire season on the right side when we went 15-1 so he had to be at the very least a decent stop-gap.

Looking at the market place for OTs and taking into account the availability and prices, what you are adamant about being possible simply wasn't.

It’s really not relevant...again, my question was: given the circumstances at the time (i.e. us being cash-strapped with little to no cap space), would it not have been better/more responsible to restructure contracts to clear up cap space so we could sign some NFL-caliber offensive tackles to protect Cam? How is diving into the history behind why we were cash-strapped relevant in answering that? My question already incorporates the reality that we had no money. Obviously we didn’t have cap space, which is why I’m talking about restructuring contracts and kicking the can down the road. Saying we had $100M tied up in 19 players in 2015 indicates to me that we had several contracts with the potential for restructuring to clear up space in the short-term.

Also, why do you keep mentioning Gross retiring? I don’t know if your timeline is off since you seem to be implying that Gross’s retirement blindsided us and impacted our ability to sign an OT, when he retired before Free Agency even started...therefore we knew his position needed to be filled back when all FA OTs were available. We just chose to fill his position with Byron “left-handed” Bell and then fill Bell’s position with Nate “where the hell do we play this guy” Chandler. Garry Williams was injured, but let’s not pretend like he would have been some significant upgrade from Chandler...he was a career journeyman who was in competition with Chandler for that RT spot before getting injured.

You even mentioned yourself 2 of the available OTs at the time (Oher and Penn) but then say we “couldn’t afford” them...which had me scratching my head and thinking you’re not understanding my question. Are you arguing that it was legitimately impossible to restructure any contracts and clear any cap space?

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None of us expected 2015. Cam needed tackles to protect but lets not forget a big part of this was Shula and RR. Part of an OCs job is to hide the weaknesses of your players. Shula's blocking schemes were ridiculously complex, and he would never change a game plan no matter how bad the Oline was performing. Denver's D laughing at Shula's ineptitude after the SB still rings in my head. He was RR's OC, and RR should have been on his ass for not doing his job. Gettleman was by no means the savior GM of this franchise, but he tried to correct the catastrophic mistakes with the cap that Hurney had made and part of that requires sucking it up and having to take what you have in front of you and not kick the can down the road any further. 

I'm not defending Gettleman, he was in a shitty situation and tried to make something out of chicken poo. He made colossal mistakes in the draft (Butler, Shaq, Funchess, KB looked good until the injury) and he did some really good things to. The Kalil contract is the albatross of his time here. The man had his flaws as GM and had his strengths. So does Hurney. If he builds a winner in NY then all of the offseason craziness will be forgotten. Winning tends to do that. 

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4 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

snip

Because if we do not understand history then folks are doomed to repeat its failures in the future. By understanding the contracts that had been signed and how they affect future cap situations (ie: $100M+ locked up in 19 players going into one season, only having $15M going into the next one) we can better understand the available options to the team. You also have to look at the OTs that were available then and the contracts they ultimately signed. When you look at all of that, then the question of "Shouldnt we have kicked the can down the road and signed two OTs for the sake of Cam's career?" isn't even a question because you see that just wasnt in the cards, no matter how much one might wax poetic on it later.

Gross' retirement is being mentioned because while it did occur before the start of free agency it also did not seem to be expected. Looking at his contract, aside from the added years to push a couple mil down the line (that whole can kicking business), he still had another year where he was getting paid to play. The team only had $15M in cap space, and if they had any idea it was Gross' last season then we might have seen more than David Foucault and Bruce Campbell being brought in. Break the bank on two OTs passed their 30s and then have nothing to show for it later? Or hold fast after warning everybody that this was a multi-year plan that we were only in year 2 of so that we then go 15-1 and to the Super Bowl in year 3.

Garry Williams was slated to be the starting RT before the ankle break and wasnt converting from DT. Let's not be foolish and act like he wouldn't have been an upgrade over Chandler.

You're scratching your head because you dont understand how the team's salary cap for the following season was already in dire straits due to those previously mentioned poor contracts. I addressed this in the first paragraph regarding understanding the history behind the contracts that were signed so that the team could see where its resources were allocated in the future.

At this point I'm just repeating myself. It's one of the primary reasons why topics like these never go anywhere and I opt to just not participate, because there is no point in having a discussion when facts are refuted in favor of beliefs.

It is hard for me to avoid that pity pie tho, especially when it makes some antagonistic (albeit well-meaning) folks salty af that they arent able to gaslight via politics and instead have to stick to the discussion at hand. :P

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