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Jeremy Igo

Pro Life

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The second trimester marks the onset of other critical reflexes: continuous breathing movements (that is, rhythmic contractions of the diaphragm and chest muscles) and coordinated sucking and swallowing reflexes. These abilities are controlled by the brainstem, which sits above the spinal cord but below the higher, more recently-evolved cerebral cortex. The brainstem is responsible for many of our body’s most vital functions–heart rate, breathing, and blood pressure. It is largely mature by the end of the second trimester, which is when babies first become able to survive outside the womb.

Last of all to mature is the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for most of what we think of as mental life–conscious experience, voluntary actions, thinking, remembering, and feeling. It has only begun to function around the time gestation comes to an end. Premature babies show very basic electrical activity in the primary sensory regions of the cerebral cortex–those areas that perceive touch, vision, and hearing–as well as in primary motor regions of the cerebral cortex. In the last trimester, fetuses are capable of simple forms of learning, like habituating (decreasing their startle response) to a repeated auditory stimulus, such as a loud clap just outside the mother’s abdomen. Late-term fetuses also seem to learn about the sensory qualities of the womb, since several studies have shown that newborn babies respond to familiar odors (such as their own amniotic fluid) and sounds (such as a maternal heartbeat or their own mother’s voice). 

 

https://www.zerotothree.org/resources/1375-when-does-the-fetus-s-brain-begin-to-work

sentient

Having a faculty, or faculties, of sensation and perception. Specif.

 

perception

(Science: psychology) The conscious mental registration of a sensory stimulus.

 

https://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Perception

Edited by Fryfan

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17 hours ago, Jeremy Igo said:

Being pro life means...

Against abortion

Against death penalty

Against needless wars 

For higher minimum wage 

For universal healthcare 

For stricter gun laws

And vegan

 

Anything short of that you aren't pro life. You are for whatever amount of death you are comfortable with.

 

Don't @ me 

it was never about that for conservatives. it’s always been about controlling women’s bodies and what they do with them. it’s just a pretext given how little of a poo they give about other pressing issues of humanity.

  • Pie 1

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1 hour ago, Khyber53 said:

It is completely possible to make an argument for Pro-Life based purely on science and ethics, without religion entering the discussion.

No one ever wants to go there, though, as it deviates from both sides' well-worn arguments.

First, we have to all agree, and it's pretty basic on this, that our understanding of fetal development has improved greatly since Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. 

Next is the question of when a fetus becomes a viable life on its own. Once the fetus can survive outside of the womb (with medical assistance), I think it would be reasonable to assume that the fetus is now what we would call a baby and entitled to  the rights of a full human being, including the protection of its life from outside threats. The most premature babies to be born and survive (in this case to full adulthood) are 21 weeks and five days (James Elgin Gill, born on May 20, 1987) and at 21 weeks even (Lyla Stensrud in 2014). Gill weighed in at 1 pound, 6 ounces and Lyla was just under 1 pound in weight. Both survived and are leading healthy lives. 

Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that we should put the brakes on elective abortion (for non-medical, rape or incest issues) at this point? Scientifically, we've moved from a point where the child can not just survive but develop from here. In legal terms, you could make a serious case that you are selectively killing a life at this point. There's just not much of a way to back out of it from here. The child is medically viable at this point using not just today's technology but that available back in 1987. 

One should, however, look not just at survival outside the womb, to be honest. Ethicists and scientists have made cases that actual sentient human life in fetuses begins much earlier than that and anyone who has been involved in a pregnancy knows, fetuses begin reacting to outside stimuli before 21 weeks. Fetuses react to touch beginning in the eighth week and react to noise by the ninth. While both of those are lower end developmental responses, it doesn't take much reasoning to see that somewhere between eight weeks and 21 weeks that you have the development of sentience and a human life.

At what point? I don't know. I don't think science has yet to pin point it and I am not sure that it can as there can be any number of factors involved, from developmental issues to questions of actual conception dates to even nutritional factors and outside stimuli. There's a big gray area in there that constitutes about three months of development wherein an abortion could either be removing a developing protoplasm or could be ending a human life.

I'm not comfortable, nor qualified to say where that fine line should be drawn, but I'd be more comfortable if we had biologists, physicians and ethicists drawing that line rather than lawyers, judges, rights advocates and religious zealots doing so. 

There are the arguments about the rights of a woman to choose what is done with her body and yes, they are important ones, without a doubt, but ethically there is also an argument to be made as to when a developing fetus develops to the point of having certain rights of their own. I don't think any but the cruelest would put that line somewhere along the birth canal. We do, as a people, consider it a crime if a woman gives birth to a child and immediately kills it (and those cases roll through our news feeds a few times each year) and it is right that we do consider that murder of the worst degree. How far, we have to ask, is it proper to roll back the clock on that act to the point at which it is no longer murder but a viable medical procedure?

This is a tough one to argue and tackle, and a downright uncomfortable one if we shed the protective arguments we've couched this in for 45 years now. It's complex and complicated, painful and one where we have to look at not just what is legal but what we, as a people, can provide as an alternative. Simply eliminating abortion without providing post-natal care (perhaps for as much as a lifetime in some cases) would be even more problematic and vile.

 

Frankly, at this point in this stupid debacle true blue states should be inacting laws that state a fetus is not a sentient creature until it is born. It has no will of its own. It’s fuging living off its mother, literally. 

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Another GOP argument from Harbi.  Liberals want to abort up to 40 weeks!

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Not sure where you are getting your numbers from here and your last statement doesn't make a lot of sense.

And yes, plants do react to stimuli, that doesn't change the argument I was making in the least. In this case, reacting to outside stimuli is considered by the National Institute of Health to be a sign of nervous system and brain development. Like I said, it is just a sign that the potential for sentience is developing, creating that gray area.

Which is why the heartbeat bills have gained traction as it is quite easily verifiable.  

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ABORTION IS IMMORAL, EXCEPT WHEN IT COMES TO MY MISTRESSES

 

TendencyTop18of18smalll.png?1545795472
This is our 9th most-read article of 2018.
Originally published July 11.

- - -

TIM: Life begins at conception. Pregnancy is a gift from God, which is why I’m cosponsoring this anti-abortion legislation after asking my lover to have an abortion. I’m 65 and she’s 32, but you probably figured that out already.

55_bundle.png?1556136542

SCOTT: When you’re a pro-life, pro-family values Republican doctor running for Congress, you understand the value of human life. I had an affair with a patient and then pressured her to have an abortion. I also fired a gun outside my wife’s bedroom. Who better than me to forcibly take the choice away from American women? I had to send my girlfriend out of state to get her abortion. Liberals are hedonistic monsters and it just makes me so angry!

ERIC: Being pro-life means that every human life is treasured. As a proud husband and father, I had an affair with my hairdresser, tied her up, took photographs of her while she was naked and then threatened to release the images if she didn’t keep silent about our affair. I also sexually assaulted her. Abortion is immoral, which is why I signed this legislation further restricting it in my already oppressive Family Values state. Women like the hairdresser I abused should not be trusted to make this decision.

DENNIS: I have never paid for an abortion. My pro-life voting record speaks for itself. We want to live in a society where every child has a chance at life. I sexually abused teenagers while I was their coach and paid them $3.5 million to stay silent. Babies are precious!

MARKThat totally reminds me of the time I texted sexual images to an underage page. There’s no way to get a teenage boy pregnant, so no hypocrisy on my anti-abortion stance.

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TED: The most effective way to reduce abortion rates is to increase access to birth control. That’s why me and my twelve male colleagues who love life so gosh darn much want to restrict access to birth control. Women should be allowed to perform in porn videos for our pleasure but they should not be trusted to make their own choices.

STEVE: Being the finance chairman of the pro-life Republican Party has been the greatest honor of my life as I raped and sexually abused multiple women and threatened them with attack dogs. Women should not be trusted to make their own choices.

ROY: 14-year-old girls are sexy and women should not be trusted to make their own choices.

JIM: I was named Pro-Life Legislator of the Year and won the Defender of Life award. Everyone deserves an advocate. Except for teenage athletes sexually abused by their coach.

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ROBCOREYSTEVEANDREWNo one values women like this wife-beating administration. Women should not be trusted to make their own choices.

ELLIOT: The reason I work for the Republican National Committee and raise money for the Republican Party is because the GOP is the pro-life party. What is more sacred than life? What is more urgent than paying my Playboy Playmate mistress $1.6 million in eight quarterly installments to buy her silence about our affair and her abortion? And why did Donald Trump’s lawyer Michael Cohen arrange the non-disclosure agreement for me? 1.6 million dollars says you’ll never find out.

DONALD: Did I pay for multiple abortions? It’s such an interesting question. The important thing is that rich Republican men will always be able to abuse and assault women and also pay for their mistresses’ abortions, even as we take the decision away from women who shouldn’t be trusted to decide for themselves. Only then will America be great again, mostly for Republican men.

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There is a common thread among the pro-lifers expressing their uninformed opinions in this thread. That is, the Roe v Wade decision had absolutely nothing to do with determining the viability point of a fetus, when life starts or anything remotely resembling such questions until 1992, when the original ruling was amended in another case, Planned Parenthood v Casey.

"With its historical survey as background, the Court centered its opinion around the notion of a constitutional "right to privacy" that was intimated in earlier cases involving family relationships and reproductive autonomy.[50] After reviewing these cases, the Court proceeded, "with virtually no further explanation of the privacy value",[5] to rule that regardless of exactly which provisions were involved, the U.S. Constitution's guarantees of liberty covered a right to privacy that generally protected a pregnant woman's decision whether or not to abort a pregnancy.[3]"

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or ... in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy.

— Roe, 410 U.S. at 153.[51]

We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, in this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.

— Roe, 410 U.S. at 159.[55]
  • Pie 2

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9 minutes ago, g5jamz said:

Which is why the heartbeat bills have gained traction as it is quite easily verifiable.  

But has nothing to do with the human brain and ignores scientific understanding on development.  You claimed to have reasons beyond religous ones.  Heartbeat bill does not rely on science, it relies on emotion and frankly control of women.

 

Might as well go for conception bill as they make as much scientific sense as "heartbeat" bills.

 

Edited by Fryfan

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I’m just going to say it because this has been bothering me for a while.

Its fuging 2019. We are passed all this stupidity and idiocracy that controlling fugs want to use. We have passed from slavery, from theocracy, from the industrial revolution into the information era. The intelligence curve of humanity in the past 150 years has gone from a flat line to a huge curve. But no idiot fugs like this refuse to move forward. We are so far past these bullshit concepts I really hope that we pass laws that make this poo impossible to do.

Social issues have always been the point of contention in the US, from slavery to slavery*. Because telling a women what she can and can’t do with her body, telling a man what they can and can’t do with their body. Telling anyone this fuging BS. Is beyond sickening. 

@g5jamz you are a fuging sociopath. Anyone that tells a mother what they can and can’t do, is the same thing as Hitler saying all the Jews must die. As a cop shooting a black person. 

All over your “god given right” this is fuging nonsense. 

You idiot fugers, just like you @g5jamz, @retired, @E CaT PanTHer 2 and so forth. Have your fists so far up your own fat ass to get a prolithic erection over telling human beings what they can and can’t do because you kneel before a fake entity in the sky. Should be erased. 

You should face that own medicine you pathetic whimpering fugs think you have any right. 

Let me put this to you bluntly. 

A random drugged up hippy walks up to you and says “I see a magical creature in the sky. He tells me I should rule everyone.” So you believe him? No. That’s what your fuging idiot religion is. That’s what all religions are. 

So go take a long hard look at yourselves in the mirror and get over this fiefdom bullshit that you idiots think is right and get with the program. Because in this day in age wether you like it or not. Everyone is equal. 

Edit: *for those that don’t understand it is slavery for these fugs in Alabama to use women as tools. 

Edited by Harbingers

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1 hour ago, Fryfan said:

I am stating it is not a grey area its marked at 24-26.  The 21 week old born does not have that capacity.  In the very very very rare cases in which machines keep the baby alive for 2-3 weeks mimicing a lot of what the womb does they then have the capacity for sentience.

 

If you are using sentience which requires brain development/function capable of achieving it its clearly at 24 weeks and beyond.  This is not a scientific debate.

How about we refer to that time as the approach to sentience. Awareness working toward an inevitable self awareness?

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55 minutes ago, Harbingers said:

Frankly, at this point in this stupid debacle true blue states should be inacting laws that state a fetus is not a sentient creature until it is born. It has no will of its own. It’s fuging living off its mother, literally. 

There are many beyond the point of birth that are that way, some well into their 20s and 30s, separated by just a basement door and a set of stairs. We can do better than living off its mother as a dividing point.

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52 minutes ago, g5jamz said:

Which is why the heartbeat bills have gained traction as it is quite easily verifiable.  

It is verifiable, and it is someone trying to make a sensible distinction. I'm not sure that's the right time, but I can say that I think that ethically they are moving in the right direction.

 

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4 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

There are many beyond the point of birth that are that way, some well into their 20s and 30s, separated by just a basement door and a set of stairs. We can do better than living off its mother as a dividing point.

Clearly, you do not understand biology. I used the word literally. Or do you not understand language as well?

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pro-life is the greatest lie ever told, it has convinced people that anyone that is not 100 pro-life is pro-death. no one likes abortions I want people to have options. 

  • Pie 1

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15 hours ago, retired said:

the truth

Your life must suck

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