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pennywise

Here’s what I see MJ doing

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5 hours ago, Stoney said:

The truth is they lost $34 million prior to food stamps and $12 million after.  This information directly from inside NBA documents.

The Forbes estimates aren't even close and cannot be relied upon, they have no idea what they are talking about.

"The Hornets and Pistons would be dead without revenue sharing, and they’re expected to end up in the red even with it. Charlotte is projected to lose nearly $34 million in basketball operations, and its monster estimated $22 million revenue-sharing check can’t make up for that."

https://grantland.com/the-triangle/grantland-exclusive-the-jason-kidd-mess-has-a-144-million-pricetag/

 

Dude, that article is five years old.

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On 6/30/2019 at 1:54 PM, pennywise said:

Said it before, Jordan will never be content on having an empty arena. 

He's well on his way to having one because he is a dunce at running this franchise.

  • Pie 1

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4 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Dude, that article is five years old.

Yeah I'm fully aware of that.

If you read our discussion the year in question was the 2013-2014 season, which just so happens to be 5-years ago.

Forbes said the team made money that season...internal NBA documents showed the reality is they lost a bunch.  The point here is that Forbes cannot be relied upon for accurate information.

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9 hours ago, Stoney said:

Yeah I'm fully aware of that.

If you read our discussion the year in question was the 2013-2014 season, which just so happens to be 5-years ago.

Forbes said the team made money that season...internal NBA documents showed the reality is they lost a bunch.  The point here is that Forbes cannot be relied upon for accurate information.

Read that quote again and pay attention to it more closely. "Expected." "Projected." Do these seem like definitive statements or someone making a quote based on incomplete information? While Forbes is doing estimates based on publicly available information, that Grantland article is quoting a source with obviously incomplete information, as well.

Even with that dire outlook, would be so hard to believe that year they turned a modest profit at $1.2 mil? 

It doesn't matter, it's a relatively pointless argument. The "money" the owners really make is from the franchise valuation. In that regard, Jordan has made out like a bandit. The Hornets are worth far more now than when he purchased them for $175 million. Make no mistake, he has already made his money.

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Michael Jordan is profiting off the Hornets brand to support his gambling addition. He has never cared about fielding a competitive basketball team as evidenced by literally every move the team has made under his ownership. A 12 year old playing NBA franchise mode could do a better job and that's not even a joke.

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2 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Read that quote again and pay attention to it more closely. "Expected." "Projected." Do these seem like definitive statements or someone making a quote based on incomplete information? While Forbes is doing estimates based on publicly available information, that Grantland article is quoting a source with obviously incomplete information, as well.

Even with that dire outlook, would be so hard to believe that year they turned a modest profit at $1.2 mil? 

It doesn't matter, it's a relatively pointless argument. The "money" the owners really make is from the franchise valuation. In that regard, Jordan has made out like a bandit. The Hornets are worth far more now than when he purchased them for $175 million. Make no mistake, he has already made his money.

I'd be willing to delve into the issue of profitability as deeply as you'd like, just let me know what you prefer.

If & when Jordan sells the team he has a chance to make some money....

....but until a sale is consummated the team has been a money loser for him & the small handful of partners who have stuck it out the whole time (most couldn't take the pain and bailed out).

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31 minutes ago, Stoney said:

I'd be willing to delve into the issue of profitability as deeply as you'd like, just let me know what you prefer.

 If & when Jordan sells the team he has a chance to make some money....

 ....but until a sale is consummated the team has been a money loser for him & the small handful of partners who have stuck it out the whole time (most couldn't take the pain and bailed out).

A couple of things, we will never know what the books truly look like for the Hornets. Most of the estimates that Forbes or any news source comes up with are from publicly available data, mined information or leaks from the organization/NBA. So, as far as a real basis to argue successfully, we aren't going to make much headway because we simply don't have the raw data to dig into. You can question the validity of the source and that is fine but you also are giving a much more suspect source as the basis of your argument. Regardless, by most of the publicly available estimates, we are profitable although most likely because of the revenue sharing alone. 

Secondly, why is it that important to argue over a modest loss or a modest profit in 2013-2014? To dispute someone's claim of 6 straight seasons in the black? Why? What the fug does it even matter if it was 5 or 6? The point he made is still valid. Until we are able to be a more profitable(which means successful) franchise, then we should not expect that the ownership is going to be willing to eschew the revenue sharing benefits nor pay a luxury tax. For all the shade being throw at MJ, that is not exactly a decision that should be that hard to understand. 

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40 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

A couple of things, we will never know what the books truly look like for the Hornets. Most of the estimates that Forbes or any news source comes up with are from publicly available data, mined information or leaks from the organization/NBA. So, as far as a real basis to argue successfully, we aren't going to make much headway because we simply don't have the raw data to dig into. You can question the validity of the source and that is fine but you also are giving a much more suspect source as the basis of your argument. Regardless, by most of the publicly available estimates, we are profitable although most likely because of the revenue sharing alone. 

Secondly, why is it that important to argue over a modest loss or a modest profit in 2013-2014? To dispute someone's claim of 6 straight seasons in the black? Why? What the fug does it even matter if it was 5 or 6? The point he made is still valid. Until we are able to be a more profitable(which means successful) franchise, then we should not expect that the ownership is going to be willing to eschew the revenue sharing benefits nor pay a luxury tax. For all the shade being throw at MJ, that is not exactly a decision that should be that hard to understand. 

$34 million isn't a modest loss.

There's is tons of publicly available info from comments made by folks like (mostly former) co-owners (Howard Levine, Nelson Schwab, Skipper Beck RIP) and employees (Fred Whitfield) and when tracked over time it's pretty easy to see a path to something in the neighborhood of $250,000,000 in operating losses between 2006 and 2014.

(Forbes probably saying they made money every year, lol.)

The economics changed when the new TV deal came in and the team probably is scratching out a profit the last few years but a quarter-billion dollar hole takes a loooong time to dig out of.

Until the team is sold operating losses/profits are the only funds Jordan has lost/captured for his own benefit....I believe he is still waaay into the red.

A couple of questions for you...what % of the team do you think MJ currently owns?  How has that changed since he bought the team?  Why do you think it changed?  How does this compare to the ownership changes/trends in Milwaukee?

PS....agree on your observation that it's illogical to think Jordan will make any move that will deprive him of his revenue sharing food-stamps and/or require him to pay luxury taxes, he and the team cannot afford that.  They also can't afford to tank.  Tough spot.

Edited by Stoney

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This topic requires a lot of time & thought to truly understand, this article (published in Fall of 2017) is a good place to start:  https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20747413/a-confidential-report-shows-nearly-half-nba-lost-money-last-season-now-what

Here's an interesting passage from the article: 

" Meanwhile, some profitable teams have bristled at the notion they should share more, and even suggested that teams that lose money every season -- and depend on revenue-sharing to stay afloat -- should consider relocating to stronger markets, sources say."

Joe Lacob, owner of the Warriors is on record on that topic in other articles.

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23 minutes ago, Stoney said:

$34 million isn't a modest loss.

There's is tons of publicly available info from comments made by folks like (mostly former) co-owners (Howard Levine, Nelson Schwab, Skipper Beck RIP) and employees (Fred Whitfield) and when tracked over time it's pretty easy to see a path to something in the neighborhood of $250,000,000 in operating losses between 2006 and 2014.

(Forbes probably saying they made money every year, lol.)

The economics changed when the new TV deal came in and the team probably is scratching out a profit the last few years but a quarter-billion dollar hole takes a loooong time to dig out of.

 Until the team is sold operating losses/profits are the only funds Jordan has lost/captured for his own benefit....I believe he is still waaay into the red.

A couple of questions for you...what % of the team do you think MJ currently owns?  How has that changed since he bought the team?  Why do you think it changed?  How does this compare to the ownership changes/trends in Milwaukee?

PS....agree on your observation that it's illogical to think Jordan will make any move that will deprive him of his revenue sharing food-stamps and/or require him to pay luxury taxes, he and the team cannot afford that.  They also can't afford to tank.  Tough spot.

That $34 million number is extremely suspect, as we have basically already established. It has not more credibility(less, considering simply the language they even use) than the Forbes estimates. 

You are quoting that quarter of a billion in losses but I am not seeing any source material for that. I would be glad to see that if you can find it.

The most logical way out of the purgatory they are in is to acquire talent through the draft. Unfortunately, Michael Jordan and his parade of yes men, are extremely ill suited to evaluate basketball prospects. All of our attempts to buy a better team have been hilariously bad, as well. 

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Wait till they trot out Rozier, Batum, MKG, Marv and Biz (yeah Zeller will get hurt again) and let all the young dudes play in Greensboro or waste on the pine.

You just know it’s coming

Edited by Shocker

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5 minutes ago, Stoney said:

This topic requires a lot of time & thought to truly understand, this article (published in Fall of 2017) is a good place to start:  https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20747413/a-confidential-report-shows-nearly-half-nba-lost-money-last-season-now-what

Here's an interesting passage from the article: 

" Meanwhile, some profitable teams have bristled at the notion they should share more, and even suggested that teams that lose money every season -- and depend on revenue-sharing to stay afloat -- should consider relocating to stronger markets, sources say."

Joe Lacob, owner of the Warriors is on record on that topic in other articles.

Yeah but that friction exists in most of the leagues that have profit sharing. The owners in the biggest markets are always going to bristle at having to "bail out" the less profitable or not profitable small market teams but that is just a bunch of rich people whining. None of their big city teams would have anywhere near the value nor be able to get the kind of TV deals they are if the leagues were reduced to 8-10 big market teams. You'd have those population centers that would be interested but the rest of the country would simply tune out. Now you lose from a bunch of revenue streams(including the TV deals). 

It's obviously a problem that so many teams are not profitable on their own, something that needs to be remedied, however not enough big markets exist to the other half of the league in. So the thought that you can just "relocate" and fix the issue is a gross oversimplification. Don't get caught up in the ownership sour grapes.

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9 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

That $34 million number is extremely suspect, as we have basically already established. It has not more credibility(less, considering simply the language they even use) than the Forbes estimates. 

You are quoting that quarter of a billion in losses but I am not seeing any source material for that. I would be glad to see that if you can find it.

The most logical way out of the purgatory they are in is to acquire talent through the draft. Unfortunately, Michael Jordan and his parade of yes men, are extremely ill suited to evaluate basketball prospects. All of our attempts to buy a better team have been hilariously bad, as well. 

The $34 million is not at all suspect, in fact, it's extremely solid information from leaked internal NBA documents, documents which were verified as authentic by multiple sources.

Sure, I can document it all, no problem. 

First I want you to revisit these questions: 

What % of the team do you think MJ currently owns?  How has that changed since he bought the team?  Why do you think it changed?  How does this compare to the ownership changes/trends in Milwaukee?

Second:

The 2017 ESPN article discusses how many NBA teams lost money the prior year, what are 4 or 5 key takeaways from that article as it relates to the Bobnets?  Your thoughts?

Edited by Stoney

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8 hours ago, Stoney said:

The $34 million is not at all suspect, in fact, it's extremely solid information from leaked internal NBA documents, documents which were verified as authentic by multiple sources.

Sure, I can document it all, no problem. 

First I want you to revisit these questions: 

What % of the team do you think MJ currently owns?  How has that changed since he bought the team?  Why do you think it changed?  How does this compare to the ownership changes/trends in Milwaukee?

Second:

The 2017 ESPN article discusses how many NBA teams lost money the prior year, what are 4 or 5 key takeaways from that article as it relates to the Bobnets?  Your thoughts?

Sure, but you continue to miss that those were projections from a memo and not final figures. Regardless, I am not sure why you are so fixated on this anyway. The revenue sharing specifically exists BECAUSE these small market teams are at an inherent market disadvantage, especially those without star players. 

And, no, I am not going revisit the questions. You don't need a prompt to make a point. If you have something to add, then just post it. It doesn't require that I play some game to get to the point that you want to make. I am all ears, so break down what you are eager to add to the debate.

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2 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Sure, but you continue to miss that those were projections from a memo and not final figures. Regardless, I am not sure why you are so fixated on this anyway. The revenue sharing specifically exists BECAUSE these small market teams are at an inherent market disadvantage, especially those without star players. 

And, no, I am not going revisit the questions. You don't need a prompt to make a point. If you have something to add, then just post it. It doesn't require that I play some game to get to the point that you want to make. I am all ears, so break down what you are eager to add to the debate.

I am not "missing" anything.  Everything is a projection until the books are formally closed but big businesses are experts at "projecting" earnings down to the penny on a quarterly basis.  The NBA are a sophisticated big business and know exactly what is going on with the league and within each team, in the past, and in the future.   

In order for this exercise to work we need to know that you understand the mechanics of how a partnership like NBA ownership works.  Without that building block you will not be able to follow along.

So, again...

What % of the team do you think MJ currently owns?  How has that changed since he bought the team?  Why do you think it changed?  How does this compare to the ownership changes/trends in Milwaukee?

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