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California to ban use of facial recognition on police body cameras

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and I just saying the mentality of our policing is all wrong.

How about the thought process of trying to cover your ass - what if I have to fight someone?  what if I have to shoot someone? How do I get cover on this?

 

How about policing is going about as peace officers with explicit techniques or deescalation in the forefront and NOT I am going to fight or shoot someone in the forefront.  Ones that welcome a type of accountability with very strict standards that cares with in the hefty responsibility  that job requires.

 

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Just now, Fryfan said:

and I just saying the mentality of our policing is all wrong.

How about the thought process of trying to cover your ass - what if I have to fight someone?  what if I have to shoot someone? How do I get cover on this?

 

How about policing is going about as peace officers with explicit techniques or deescalation in the forefront and NOT I am going to fight or shoot someone in the forefront.  Ones that welcome a type of accountability with very strict standards that cares with in the hefty responsibility  that job requires.

 

 

Because the reality is different than you think. It's not about covering the ass of officers at all. It's about us needing police (we do, like it or not), it's about it being a job that is hard to find willing, well qualified candidates for due to the risks associated, and now you're saying "if at any point the camera is not able to capture their every action, even at no fault of their own, they're fired"? That's unreasonable and you can't fire somebody for something they're not responsible for in any way.

 

The reality is cops are the enemy to criminals and criminals can and will initiate a physical fight sometimes to avoid going to jail. De-escalate all you want, but it's not some guaranteed tactic to work.

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11 minutes ago, lightsout said:

 

Because the reality is different than you think. It's not about covering the ass of officers at all. It's about us needing police (we do, like it or not), it's about it being a job that is hard to find willing, well qualified candidates for due to the risks associated, and now you're saying "if at any point the camera is not able to capture their every action, even at no fault of their own, they're fired"? That's unreasonable and you can't fire somebody for something they're not responsible for in any way.

 

The reality is cops are the enemy to criminals and criminals can and will initiate a physical fight sometimes to avoid going to jail. De-escalate all you want, but it's not some guaranteed tactic to work.

Perhaps we need to examine our jailing system also.  Perhaps people are sick of having authoritarian presences in the community that are aggressive towards them.  Cops have brought on the mistrust themselves by their actions.  You wanting to pre explain away more accountability measures tells me all I need about policing in our society.

 

Do you know the history of the police force in this country?  Do you understand what the "anglo American heritage of law enforcement" as sessions put it is all about?

 

 

 

Edited by Fryfan

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7 minutes ago, lightsout said:

 

Because the reality is different than you think. It's not about covering the ass of officers at all. It's about us needing police (we do, like it or not), it's about it being a job that is hard to find willing, well qualified candidates for due to the risks associated, and now you're saying "if at any point the camera is not able to capture their every action, even at no fault of their own, they're fired"? That's unreasonable and you can't fire somebody for something they're not responsible for in any way.

 

The reality is cops are the enemy to criminals and criminals can and will initiate a physical fight sometimes to avoid going to jail. De-escalate all you want, but it's not some guaranteed tactic to work.

And cops have a bad habit of treating everyone like criminals. You left that part out.

These body cameras sure do have an interesting habit of "malfunctioning" in cases where cops are being accused of wrongdoing.

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5 minutes ago, Fryfan said:

Perhaps we need to examine our jailing system also.  Perhaps people are sick of having authoritarian presences in the community that are agressive towards them.  Cops have brought on the mistrust themselves by their actions.  You wanting to pre explain away more accountability measures tells me all I need about policing in our society.

 

 

We absolutely do. I have absolutely no idea how private prisons ever got approved and why there isn't a constant uproar against it. We literally have private, for profit businesses running prisons with very real financial incentives for seeing more of our populace behind bars and deep pockets to lobby for "tough on crime" laws. That's a massive fuging problem.

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Lights out? - when you are encountering someone involved in a illegal act is your thought of this person needs to be taken off our streets and locked away OR what help does this person need - is it a substance problem, is it a poverty issue, is it a mental health issue?

As pointed out above our jailing system is a profitable one - deeper structural issues is not.  Do you think this flows into our policing?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Fryfan said:

Lights out? - when you are encountering someone involved in a illegal act is your thought of this person needs to be taken off our streets and locked away OR what help does this person need - is it a substance problem, is it a poverty issue, is it a mental health issue?

As pointed out above our jailing system is a profitable one - deeper structural issues is not.  Do you think this flows into our policing?

 

 

 

I do not think police care about sending people to prison so that the private prisons can profit if that's what you're getting at.

And the vast majority of cops that I know (save for a few who like to think they're super cops) have straight out told me they've not arrested when they could have because they found a better way to help somebody than costing them money (what an arrest ultimately does). Most cops are out there doing an honest days work, trying to help people, arresting who they have to and helping all they can. Which you would know if you knew some cops, or went on some ride alongs, or looked into being a cop.

 

I don't always say "go be a cop" just to shut people down. I legitimately want people to go do it. People like you with your ideas and thoughts on how policing should be done, you could do some good. Go do it. If you won't, why? It's something I'm curious about because the loudest "police are all corrupt" types are always the ones who then say "I would never do it because it's too dangerous, not worth the risk, I like my current job too much, etc". I think we all can agree that law enforcement is a very important job in society and needs to be done by good people who are willing and capable. So, why are there no willing takers for the job with all this idealism?

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I actually think one of the biggest problems with our police forces is that starting cop pay is trash and the hours suck. When that's the case, it's not like you're likely to get a field of great candidates to choose from. Maybe if starting pay was better all these HS hall monitor types on a power Trip wouldn't get hired. One of the other huge problems is this "brothership of the badge" bullshit. "Good cops" protecting bad cops because they're fellow cops ARE bad cops. I also think that ex-military by and large aren't well suited to be cops and I think it's the root cause behind a lot of this "us against them" mentality that seems pervasive in a lot of LEO departments. 

Edited by LinvilleGorge
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Let's look at drugs, as an example.

 

It is not illegal to be high on anything. The simple act of being high on meth, in your front yard, no crime. It is illegal to be high and walking on the road, or driving, etc. Why? Because you're a danger to yourself and others. Say you're high and walking down the street. An officer stops you and detects that you're high on something (or drunk). That officer can then say "hey, call a ride to come get you or I'm taking you to jail until you're either sober or a sober person picks you up". There is no charge associated with that, just that solution to keep people safe.

 

Would you believe me if I told you that people will fight you for trying to help them? Is there a charge associated with walking down the street high/drunk? In some places, yes. It's a criminal offense. So foregoing that charge for a helping hand approach, people don't like the idea of being told what they can and can't do, even if it's for their own good.

 

This is not some cut and dry thing and until you guys realize that, no ground can be made.

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2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I actually think one of the biggest problems with our police forces is that starting cop pay is trash and the hours suck. When that's the case, it's not like you're likely to get a field of great candidates to choose from. Maybe if starting pay was better all these HS hall monitor types on a power Trip wouldn't get hired. One of the other huge problems is this "brothership of the badge" bullshit. "Good cops" protecting bad cops because they're fellow cops ARE bad cops.

 

100% agree with all of this.

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One of my cop FB friends shared this. This is exactly the type of militaristic mindset bullshit I'm talking about. End of "tour"? WTF? You're not a soldier doing a tour of duty. You're a fuging cop going to work.

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police work is not even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the country. literally that Apple Roofing guy who used to post on the huddle 6 years ago puts himself at more risk and does a better service to the public

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18 hours ago, lightsout said:

 

I do not think police care about sending people to prison so that the private prisons can profit if that's what you're getting at.

And the vast majority of cops that I know (save for a few who like to think they're super cops) have straight out told me they've not arrested when they could have because they found a better way to help somebody than costing them money (what an arrest ultimately does). Most cops are out there doing an honest days work, trying to help people, arresting who they have to and helping all they can. Which you would know if you knew some cops, or went on some ride alongs, or looked into being a cop.

 

I don't always say "go be a cop" just to shut people down. I legitimately want people to go do it. People like you with your ideas and thoughts on how policing should be done, you could do some good. Go do it. If you won't, why? It's something I'm curious about because the loudest "police are all corrupt" types are always the ones who then say "I would never do it because it's too dangerous, not worth the risk, I like my current job too much, etc". I think we all can agree that law enforcement is a very important job in society and needs to be done by good people who are willing and capable. So, why are there no willing takers for the job with all this idealist

18 hours ago, lightsout said:

Let's look at drugs, as an example.

 

It is not illegal to be high on anything. The simple act of being high on meth, in your front yard, no crime. It is illegal to be high and walking on the road, or driving, etc. Why? Because you're a danger to yourself and others. Say you're high and walking down the street. An officer stops you and detects that you're high on something (or drunk). That officer can then say "hey, call a ride to come get you or I'm taking you to jail until you're either sober or a sober person picks you up". There is no charge associated with that, just that solution to keep people safe.

 

Would you believe me if I told you that people will fight you for trying to help them? Is there a charge associated with walking down the street high/drunk? In some places, yes. It's a criminal offense. So foregoing that charge for a helping hand approach, people don't like the idea of being told what they can and can't do, even if it's for their own good.

 

This is not some cut and dry thing and until you guys realize that, no ground can be made.

 

I understand its not cut and dry.  We absolutely need a way of order to deal with public safety be it making sure drunks arent on the road or the college frat guy isnt getting women plastered to fug them without consent.  Although cops always seem to have their priorities not quite tuned correct.

 

 

Cops letting you go with a warning or having you call a ride is fine but nothing addresses structural issues when our money goes to prisons at much greater rates then substance abuse clinics.  Even when a cop lets you off with a warning its like they are doing you a giant favor - hey bud I am going to let you go but straighten it up, the mindset is still if you keep this up I will have to drag you in.  What is needed is this structural change, the warning is if you need help here is where to seek it, if it seems beyond what can be just a warning when and they are taken you in it needs to be with the thought of directing you to substance, mental health, job training, etc.  Seek what the core issue is and deal with it not just cleaning up the streets.  Other countries dont just lock people up because they dont want to deal with them, we do.  Its at the core of our policing from the start of it.

 

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