Jump to content
Carolina Huddle
  • Hey There!

    Please register to see fewer ads and a better viewing experience:100_Emoji_42x42:

micnificent28

Bigger gamble Allen's ascension or Cams ability to stay healthy?

Recommended Posts

Because this is all the comes down to. Yes this is another Cam vs Allen thread. Because this is the most important thing to happen in the franchise's history in my opinion. It seems most are willing to bet Allen can improve his game to levels of starter like success vs Cam staying on the field. To me it seem the easier and more likely scenario is Newton staying healthy. Before the last season or 2 had had been built up as this god who couldnt get hurt now because of the shoulder and the foot injury his body is breaking down. Who is the expert that declares when a person body is simply getting hurt from bad luck vs oh it's over his body is breaking down?

My thoughts on the two are these are 2 completely different injuries that have nothing what so ever to do with each other. Just because your shoulder got hurt and yes that is a huge one and was suppose to take multiple season to get back to sustainable levels doesn't mean your whole body is just giving out. The foot injury as far as I'm concerned is a random freak accident that could have happened to anyone. More bad luck than anything.  Keep him clean and you know what you have with newton on the field.

The bigger gamble is believing allen can win you football games. Yes you can win with him limiting mistakes but so far I haven't seen any evidence he can march you down the field vs good teams and will a team to victory. Yes he has moxy and guts throws a accurate mid range ball,but it lacks zip and deep range accuracy. That isn't the end all be all tho.. my thoughts is that can we be sure this guy can develop into a player worthy of letting a guy whom we know if healthy can will a team to victories is worth keeping over a guy who hasn't shown that ability for.

Seems the common consensus is we know cam cant stay healthy and is more likely to get hurt than allen is likely to throw 3-4 touchdowns and win the big games. I just feel this is a grave mistake one that because were afraid cam will get hurt again we are just going with the lesser talent who hasn't gotten hurt yet. And yes that could happen as well but we lose the bonus of haven a proven winner and generation talent. A true hall of fame game breaker.I feel we are more likely to get from Grier what we get from allen than to assume Allen is a competitor and leader who can will us to victory in the same vein as Newton. Have we been spoiled by the Newton era so much that we think we can win with anybody or have we forgot what it's like to be the browns or dolphins who have been searching for a decade talent for...well decades?  It also feels th media is creating the perfect storm to drive the narrative to get cam out of carolina and onto a bigger market franchise.

Edited by micnificent28
  • Pie 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I feel like management is most concerned about extending Cam to a large contract based on past injuries and all of the hits he has taken. It’s the last year of his current contract and his agent has to be asking for a extension not wanting to play risking injury (behind our line) without some sort of security. I believe Allen is a capable starter at this point, this might be his peak or it might not. If a new coach comes in, they may want to draft their QB and let Allen play until they are ready. I don’t see it as a Cam vs Allen as much as a Cam vs other options and salary cap ramifications. Cam is my favorite player, but giving him a large deal is risky right now...

  • Pie 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

Both are gambles, However in nfl history, There’s only a handful of successful undrafted qbs.

I stand firmly by what I’ve been stating, smartest decision barring cam wanting out, ect is to let cam get 100% healthy, sit down with him and let him know due to his recent injury history we are not looking to extend him yet, but he still is the panthers franchise qb when healthy.

in the meantime you develop both Grier and Allen in preparation that cam maybe breaking down or that one of them has the potential to replace cam down the road. 
 

unless you can sell me on what we drastic changes 19.1 mil will do for this team I don’t see the benefits in cutting or trading cam unless you’re 1000% sure he’s done 

This is the right answer any logical person should come 2. What exactly are you gonna do with 19.1 million anyway? Might be enough for 2 players. U make that difference up from say McCoy contract and addision

  • Pie 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

This is the right answer any logical person should come 2. What exactly are you gonna do with 19.1 million anyway? Might be enough for 2 players. U make that difference up from say McCoy contract and addision

I’ve been saying this from jump street, no one is selling me yet or attempted to on what better use the 19.1 mil will go to.

im convinced if it’s not towards another qb in the same tier as cam it is only keeping us enough talented to put us out of top qb range when drafting, not to mention wasting seasons of a prime cmc and luke while we fiddle around trying to find a franchise qb or waiting for Allen to become one when history is stacked heavily against him 

Edited by Cpt slay a ho
  • Pie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

I’ve been saying this for jump street, no one is selling me yet or attempted to on what better use the 19.1 mil will go to.

im convinced if it’s not towards another qb in the same tier as cam it is only keeping us enough talented to put us out of top qb range when drafting, not to mention wasting seasons of a prime cmc and luke while we fiddle around trying to find a franchise qb or waiting for Allen to become one when history is stacked heavily against him 

It would actually be a lot more than $19M if you decide to go with Allen. Not saying which way I'd go although I'm not as optimistic that Cam will ever be close to MVP levels again. That said, you have Allen really cheap for 3 years before he'd get true starter money. With extensions, you are talking a total of $70M or so. That might make people think a bit more than $19M.

  • Beer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hate to say it but I think Cams best days are behind him. Allen’s best days may be ahead of him but that still doesn’t mean he has what it takes to be a franchise QB. 
 

Odds are neither one of them are the answer for the long term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

Both are gambles, However in nfl history, There’s only a handful of successful undrafted qbs.

I stand firmly by what I’ve been stating, smartest decision barring cam wanting out, ect is to let cam get 100% healthy, sit down with him and let him know due to his recent injury history we are not looking to extend him yet, but he still is the panthers franchise qb when healthy.

in the meantime you develop both Grier and Allen in preparation that cam maybe breaking down or that one of them has the potential to replace cam down the road. 
 

unless you can sell me on what drastic changes 19.1 mil will do for this team I don’t see the benefits in cutting or trading cam unless you’re 1000% sure he’s done 

I mostly agree with you, but in fairness, there are only a relative handful of successful qb's period.  Most of them, even the drafted ones, don't even look as good as Allen has.  Even fewer get to the level Cam did.  But I am glad its a decision I don't have to make.  

  • Pie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, stbugs said:

It would actually be a lot more than $19M if you decide to go with Allen. Not saying which way I'd go although I'm not as optimistic that Cam will ever be close to MVP levels again. That said, you have Allen really cheap for 3 years before he'd get true starter money. With extensions, you are talking a total of $70M or so. That might make people think a bit more than $19M.

That’s speaking long term wise, as far as next year you’re only saving 19.1 mil, I never been in the camp that we NEED mvp cam again, I’ll take the 11 weeks of cam we got in 2018 all day everyday. 
 

also don’t think it would happen but I’m not sure Allen is going to play for peanuts knowing we’ve cut cam and he’s our starter going forward. 
 

to answer op’s question I’d take the 19.1 mil gamble on cam before being for certain Allen can turn into the Kurt Warner’s or warren moons of the world, no knock on him, just big shoes to fill 

Edited by Cpt slay a ho
  • Pie 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you think Allen can succeed when surrounded by talent (as he has shown thus far), then you have to account for his dirt-cheap salary which would presumably allow us to build a better team around him. That’s another thing to factor, despite the odd sentiment that $19 million is nothing.

  • Pie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Davidson Deac II said:

I mostly agree with you, but in fairness, there are only a relative handful of successful qb's period.  Most of them, even the drafted ones, don't even look as good as Allen has.  Even fewer get to the level Cam did.  But I am glad its a decision I don't have to make.  

I agree hence why I’d exhaust all options before going down that avenue again 

  • Pie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

Because this is all the comes down to.

I don't really think this the case, though.  The "Cam healthy or Allen ascending, those are your options" is a false dichotomy.    This is because Allen will most likely be on this team either way (cost/contract related), and even if the Panthers do not think he is the "long term future", it does not mean Cam is back, nor does it mean Allen has no value to the team. 

As an example... Let's say the Panthers move on from Cam.  They can do any number of things... including the following:

1) Draft a QB in the 1st round hoping for him to become the franchise guy,

2) Decide to stick with Allen as the starter (whether that means they think about him as a franchise guy or not) without a competition of any kind.

3) Bring in a veteran QB to challenge for the starter job in camp, expressly demoting Allen back to backup.

Only 1 of those 3 involves the Panthers believing Allen is "ascending."  Some of these things will eat some of the money that would have been spent on a year of Cam (and note, Cam will def. want an extension), but unlikely all of it (unless #3 is actually bringing in a veteran, high priced starter).  And so, the team do not need to bet on Allen if they let Cam go.

At the same time, they actually do not need to 'give up on' Allen ascending if they decide to bet on Cam's health.  It is completely possible that the team will think Allen is a future franchise QB, but he would be better served backing Cam up for another 2-3 years.  

Now in the world of betting TODAY that Cam will be healthy or Allen is going to turn into a franchise player, and in the total, complete bubble of those things, I would bet on Cam.  We know Cam's ceiling.  We know what he can do and bring to this team - and so, IMO, do ownership/management.  But I would bet almost nothing.  That is because neither, to me, is likely - and also because I hate betting anything, hahaha.  An interesting thought experiment anyway.  One I am glad I don't need to consider in reality.

edit: FWIW I mostly agree with you RE: Allen being the bigger gamble, but I think he has shown a bit more than you do.  And I am more worried about Cam's injuries since I think that while the foot and shoulder aren't related, I think the shoulder is not something that is really better.  Just a difference in opinions.  I'm more than a bit of a pessimist :P 

Edited by mav1234
  • Pie 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

Now in the world of betting TODAY that Cam will be healthy or Allen is going to turn into a franchise player, and in the total, complete bubble of those things, I would bet on Cam. 

Me too.

I don't think Cam will ever get back to where he was 5-years ago in terms of physical prowess but if he can get healthy, throw without pain, and learn to slide (!!)....

....I think he will have a big year in 2020 and earn himself a whopping contract from Tepper starting in 2021.

One thing I am certain of, if Cam plays NFL football in the 2020 season it will be in a Carolina Panthers uniform.

  • Pie 2
  • Beer 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, micnificent28 said:

This is the right answer any logical person should come 2. What exactly are you gonna do with 19.1 million anyway? Might be enough for 2 players. U make that difference up from say McCoy contract and addision

It’s not the $19m next year, it’s the$200m for the next contract that’s the risk

  • Pie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, bull123 said:

It’s not the $19m next year, it’s the$200m for the next contract that’s the risk

The $200M is contingent on Cam balling out next year and proving he is healthy.

Every big NFL contract comes with risks.

You can be assured that of all of the thousands of people in the NFL who have ever had some responsibility to assess and manage risk...

...David Tepper is the, single, best, risk, manager, the, NFL, has, ever, seen. 

Edited by SBiii
  • Pie 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...