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RumHam

Tepper if you do snoop this board, your thoughts on hurney are wrong

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12 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Anyone stumping for Hurney to remain with full GM control either has amnesia or simply hasn't been a Panthers fan for long.

Not really for him staying or going, just trying to reset expectations for drafts. Everyone here has way too high of expectations for drafts based on league history

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24 minutes ago, carpanfan96 said:

Not really, here's a shocker for you. If the average draft produces two starters then 4 drafts would be 8 players. 53% of first round picks have career av over 5 and 60% are starters. 2nd round is around 30% Av of 5 and 40% starters. After 2nd round we are in the 20% or lower for av and roughly 25% and lower for starters of one season. 

Do the math. He had a 21% hit rate in those drafts. Atrocious.

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21 minutes ago, carpanfan96 said:

Not really for him staying or going, just trying to reset expectations for drafts. Everyone here has way too high of expectations for drafts based on league history

I'm not just talking about starters. Quality depth has to be drafted too. Look at those drafts. There was none of that. A few hits and the rest complete and utter whiffs.

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5 hours ago, RumHam said:

While you may argue that ron couldn't accomplish hurneys vision from his personnel choices, he isn't a great evaluator like you think he is. Just remember those were gettleman players when we peaked this decade. Our secondary shows flashes, and thats about it. Both ol and dl are atrocious. The wr got better, but samuel was a gettleman guy. Just because he agrees with everything you say doesn't mean hes good. Theres a reason no other team signed him over the course of four years.

I happen to think his thoughts on Hurney are pretty good. poo on me if you want but I think Hurney is a good GM.

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6 hours ago, bobowilson said:

 

No matter how many great draft picks he produces, they can't get past their confirmation bias, and will continue to cling to the fact he drafted Armanti Edwards (at the 89th pick late in the third round).  Never mind the fact Armanti Edwards actually played 41 games in the NFL, which is about the exact median length of someone chosen 89th.

Edwards was drafted with the 33rd pick of the 2011 draft. That's what he actually cost, regardless of where he was drafted. 

The reason this pick is so heavily criticized is it was for a player who was going to be transitioning to a new position he had never played. He was also coming from a lesser level of college competition. He was considered a late round to udfa at the time. It was absolutely a reach pick that never even came close to panning out. The only reason he wasnt cut sooner is because of how much was spent to draft him.

Edited by SmokinwithWilly

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If Tepper reads too much of this board he would be inclined to move the team or sell it. 
 

 

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57 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Edwards was drafted with the 33rd pick of the 2011 draft. That's what he actually cost, regardless of where he was drafted. 

The reason this pick is so heavily criticized is it was for a player who was going to be transitioning to a new position he had never played. He was also coming from a lesser level of college competition. He was considered a late round to udfa at the time. It was absolutely a reach pick that never even came close to panning out. The only reason he wasnt cut sooner is because of how much was spent to draft him.

You know who we traded with for that pick.

The Patriots selected Ras-I Dowling with the 33rd pick in the draft we gave them in the Armani trade.  Dowling had even a worse career than Edwards, only playing 2 and 7 games for the Patriots over 2 years before getting cut.  Played 12 games in total over his entire NFL career (compared to 41 games for Armanti Edwards).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DowlRa00.htm

Are the Patriots incompetent for selecting Ras-I Dowling with the 2nd rounder we gave them for Armanti Edwards, or perhaps, is the draft a crapshoot after round 1?

Here are two consecutive drafts for the Patriots in which they got absolutely nothing other than 2 players in 19 picks.  Yes, out of 19 picks, only 2 were every even serviceable.  Even in Hurney's worst drafts cherrypicked over 13 years, he still picked Hall of Famers.  The Patriots only got 1 starter and 1 kicker over 10 picks (note, Mincey never played a down for the Pats).

2007 1 Brandon Meriweather 24 DB 2015 0 2 6 33 112                       17 6.0 Miami (FL)
2007 4 Kareem Brown 127 DT 2007 0 0 0 0 1                           Miami (FL)
2007 5 Clint Oldenburg 171 T 2007 0 0 0 0 2                           Colorado St.
2007 6 Justin Rogers 180 LB 2009 0 0 0 2 32                           SMU
2007 6 Mike Richardson 202 DB 2010 0 0 0 2 22                           Notre Dame
2007 6 Justise Hairston 208 RB   0 0 0                               Central Connecticut St.
2007 6 Corey Hilliard 209 T 2014 0 0 0 9 47                           Oklahoma St.
2007 7 Oscar Lua 211 LB   0 0 0                               USC
2007 7 Mike Elgin 247 G   0 0 0                               Iowa
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2006 1 Laurence Maroney 21 RB 2010 0 0 0 26 49           618 2504 21 44 459 1     Minnesota
2006 2 Chad Jackson 36 WR 2008 0 0 0 2 18           4 22 0 14 171 3     Florida
2006 3 David Thomas 86 TE 2012 0 0 2 9 80                 102 938 8     Texas
2006 4 Garrett Mills 106 FB 2010 0 0 0 1 16                 9 110 0     Tulsa
2006 4 Stephen Gostkowski 118 K 2019 2 4 14 36 204                           Memphis
2006 5 Ryan O'Callaghan 136 T 2010 0 0 1 12 51                           California
2006 6 Jeremy Mincey 191 DE 2015 0 0 4 30 96                       1 26.0 Florida
2006 6 Dan Stevenson 205 G   0 0 0                               Notre Dame
2006 6 Le Kevin Smith 206 DT 2010 0 0 0 2 45                         1.0 Nebraska
2006 7 Willie Andrews 229 DB 2007 0 0 0 3 30                           Baylor

 

 
Edited by bobowilson

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I disagree, I do think hurney is a good college talent evaluator, that also doesnt mean hes a good gm, because he has sucked at financials for a while.  Fwiw, I think little will be alright, burns is a stud, daley has been more than expected and christian miller still has a lot of upside.

  • Pie 1

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19 minutes ago, bobowilson said:

You know who we traded with for that pick.

The Patriots selected Ras-I Dowling with the 33rd pick in the draft we gave them in the Armani trade.  Dowling had even a worse career than Edwards, only playing 2 and 7 games for the Patriots over 2 years before getting cut.  Played 12 games in total over his entire NFL career (compared to 41 games for Armanti Edwards).

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DowlRa00.htm

Are the Patriots incompetent for selecting Ras-I Dowling with the 2nd rounder we gave them for Armanti Edwards, or perhaps, is the draft a crapshoot after round 1?

 

The Dowling pick absolutely sucked. But the difference between the Panthers and the Patriots is 6 Super Bowl wins with 9 appearances and 17 10+ win seasons in a row. The Panthers haven't even won back to back seasons no matter how many HoFs he drafted. 

And if you are saying that everything after round 1 is a crap shoot, then you are also saying that Hurney has no drafting skill at all after the 1st and its random luck. You cant have it both ways.

Hurney has had success drafting, That alone does not make him a great gm. He has many other areas where he has demonstrated mediocrity (free agent pickups) to straight up trainwreck (cap management).

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16 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

 

And if you are saying that everything after round 1 is a crap shoot, then you are also saying that Hurney has no drafting skill at all after the 1st and its random luck. You cant have it both ways.

Hurney has had success drafting, That alone does not make him a great gm. He has many other areas where he has demonstrated mediocrity (free agent pickups) to straight up trainwreck (cap management).

No, I'm not saying that.  I've cited numerous times in this thread the tremendous success he's had in rounds 2-7, picking numerous Hall of Famers and Pro Bowlers, far better than almost any other manager in the mid rounds.

People counter that by citing the Armanti Edwards and Jimmy Clausens, and I'm dismissing the foolish notion that somewhere exists a mythical general manager who doesn't have dozens of busts in the mid rounds equally as bad as those guys.

And I agree he's mediocre to bad with free agency and cap management.  But if you have a guy who is possibly the best drafter in the NFL as your GM (now that Ozzie Newsome retired) who happens to be bad at other areas of management, you don't get rid of him.  You get him some assistants to help him focus on what he's good at.  Which is precisely what we're doing.

 

 

Edited by bobowilson
  • Pie 2

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15 hours ago, RumHam said:

While you may argue that ron couldn't accomplish hurneys vision from his personnel choices, he isn't a great evaluator like you think he is. Just remember those were gettleman players when we peaked this decade. Our secondary shows flashes, and thats about it. Both ol and dl are atrocious. The wr got better, but samuel was a gettleman guy. Just because he agrees with everything you say doesn't mean hes good. Theres a reason no other team signed him over the course of four years.

they werent gettleman players lol what the fug are you talking about dude

cam newton - hurney

steve smith - hurney

greg olsen - a trade by hurney

jordan gross - hurney

luke kuechly - hurney

thomas davis - hurney

mario addison - hurney

dj moore - hurney 2.0

jonathan stewart - yeah you guessed it, hurney

 

that might be one of the most retarded things ive ever read on this board

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7 hours ago, bobowilson said:

No, I'm not saying that.  I've cited numerous times in this thread the tremendous success he's had in rounds 2-7, picking numerous Hall of Famers and Pro Bowlers, far better than almost any other manager in the mid rounds.

People counter that by citing the Armanti Edwards and Jimmy Clausens, and I'm dismissing the foolish notion that somewhere exists a mythical general manager who doesn't have dozens of busts in the mid rounds equally as bad as those guys.

And I agree he's mediocre to bad with free agency and cap management.  But if you have a guy who is possibly the best drafter in the NFL as your GM (now that Ozzie Newsome retired) who happens to be bad at other areas of management, you don't get rid of him.  You get him some assistants to help him focus on what he's good at.  Which is precisely what we're doing.

 

 

but m-muh anecdotal examples that were almost certainly forced upon hurney by JR's senile ass!!!

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48 minutes ago, beo said:

they werent gettleman players lol what the fug are you talking about dude

cam newton - hurney

steve smith - hurney

greg olsen - a trade by hurney

jordan gross - hurney

luke kuechly - hurney

thomas davis - hurney

mario addison - hurney

dj moore - hurney 2.0

jonathan stewart - yeah you guessed it, hurney

 

that might be one of the most retarded things ive ever read on this board

Let’s see. Addison has nothing to do with Hurney. That was Beane. 
 

Hurney didn’t draft Smith. 
 

And if Hurney is such a “savant” with college talent, why did he never go to Auburn to scout Cam. Shula had more to do with picking Cam than Hurney. 

Edited by Toomers

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