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Carolina Panthers Training Camp - Sunday Thread


Zod
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3 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

That is another rather concerning thing about BC. The staff seems to have a less than clear idea about what they want to do with him. I know they seem very attached to the idea of versatility, which I don't disagree with for depth OL, but I would like to think they had SOME idea of what he was before they drafted him. It seems more like they just like him as an athlete and expected to plug him in wherever they could.

 

You are conflating our guesses at what's going on with them not having "SOME idea" of where he'll play.   The 1s have been Erving, Elflein, Paradis, Miller, Moton for a while now.  BC has been taking his reps mostly at RT.   Don't confuse us not knowing what their plan is, or liking the plan, with them not having a plan. 
 

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That isn't a strategy that will works as easily in the NFL as it does college(where it is rather common). 

Ignoring versatility in the NFL is the mistake.  You can have MANY more players on a college team.  There are 5 linemen, ~10 oline roster spots.  If everyone one can play only one position, what happens when 2 linemen go down in the same position?  Versatility on the oline is FAR more important in the NFL than in college.  

   

Edited by SBBlue
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16 hours ago, stbugs said:

This is not true at all. That’s what we heard about Little as well and I posted all of the day 2 picks that year that got significant starts their rookie years. Saying that rookie OL that excel is the exception isn’t correct. There were tons of starters in the 2019 day 2 picks. In 2020, there were 7 day two picks (I ignored comp picks and the guy who opted out for COVID) since BC was an early 3rd. 3 of the 7 were drafted before BC’s slot and 4 of the 7 after.

5 of the 7 were considered starters and started a minimum of 9 games. One non-starter was a raw T and the other was drafted as a backup on Atlanta whose OL starters were already set. Considering BC has below average OL in front of him, he’s got a great chance to start if he’s really good. Again, it’s not rare for OL rookie starters unless you are talking about day 4/UDFA players.

I said rookies, not 2nd day picks, but out of curiosity who are the 2nd day picks in 2020 you are referring to?

I see 5 listed as OT, of which only 2 played more than half the games.

Also just because you are started doesn't' mean you are good.

 

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3 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

That is another rather concerning thing about BC. The staff seems to have a less than clear idea about what they want to do with him. I know they seem very attached to the idea of versatility, which I don't disagree with for depth OL, but I would like to think they had SOME idea of what he was before they drafted him. It seems more like they just like him as an athlete and expected to plug him in wherever they could.

That isn't a strategy that will works as easily in the NFL as it does college(where it is rather common). 

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he getting most of his snaps at RT?

 

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42 minutes ago, SBBlue said:

You are conflating our guesses at what's going on with them not having "SOME idea" of where he'll play. 

This happens frequently around here. People make statements and suddenly that's what the coaches/FO are thinking. It would be funny if people didn't actually take it so seriously.

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37 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

I said rookies, not 2nd day picks, but out of curiosity who are the 2nd day picks in 2020 you are referring to?

I see 5 listed as OT, of which only 2 played more than half the games.

Also just because you are started doesn't' mean you are good.

 

I said day 2 because of course BC was taken at 70, right smack in the middle of day 2. Saying all rookies is silly because most day 3 rookies and undrafted players don’t even start. Day 1 and day 2 (lowers dramatically once you are late round 3/comp picks/early 4th). Not sure why you are only looking at tackles (you also probably missed that Niang opted out), since the team literally said they had him graded as a 2nd round guard (3rd round tackle) during the draft. I used all OL.

Here’s a quick list of the 5 starters I mentioned in the 2020 draft:

Hunt (37) started 11 games (at RT)

Cleveland (58) started 9 games (at RG even though listed as T for draft)

Lewis (69 one pick before BC) started 16 games

Jackson (75) started 16 games

Cushenberry (83) started 16 games

So, within 13 picks before and after BC’s slot there were 6 OL. Half of them started all 16 games. Also, in day 1, 6 of 7 drafted OL started at least 9 games and 5 of 7 started at least 12 games. The only one that didn’t start was Isaiah Wynn who basically didn’t even want to play football.

Acting like it’s rare that someone picked near him starts over vets is incorrect. Taking out the COVID opt-out (Niang) who had no chance to start, 12 of 16 OL taken in day 1/day 2 (including 2 comp picks) started at least half the year and most started a full year. It’s not rare for OL like BC to start, in fact most do.

Same discussion happened with Little and I went through the 2019 draft of OL around him and almost all of them started the entire year of at least half.

Edited by stbugs
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1 hour ago, SBBlue said:

You are conflating our guesses at what's going on with them not having "SOME idea" of where he'll play.   The 1s have been Erving, Elflein, Paradis, Miller, Moton for a while now.  BC has been taking his reps mostly at RT.   Don't confuse us not knowing what their plan is, or liking the plan, with them not having a plan. 
 

Ignoring versatility in the NFL is the mistake.  You can have MANY more players on a college team.  There are 5 linemen, ~10 oline roster spots.  If everyone one can play only one position, what happens when 2 linemen go down in the same position?  Versatility on the oline is FAR more important in the NFL than in college.  

   

Their own words and actions seem pretty indicative of them not really having a clear plan for him. It seems like they just saw the athleticism and ability then had the idea to try him a few different areas to see the best fit. I don't even necessarily disagree with that thought process had we been in a stronger position along the line in general. So, for us he was a 3rd round project player. Not the best use of a 3rd rounder, IMO.

I don't disagree with the idea of having versatile offensive lineman. But you also need to be good at something. Good example being Erving. Has been used at just about every position along the line. Also happened to be pretty bad at most of them. Again, not a bad IDEA but you need to be at least of average quality at some of those positions. 

I am not giving up on BC yet, I am just have concerns to see him buried so deep on the depth chart when we all know how poor some of the players are ahead of him. It's definitely not what I was expecting. We have to hope the light comes on sooner rather than later because he is one of the few guys on the roster that has a high ceiling.

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18 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

That seems to be the case from the reports.

Yep and an unfortunate part because our team graded him as a better G than T. The only glimmer of hope is that Erving being dinged again and BC being limited to RT might be a sign that Moton may go LT and BC may start at RT. Scott playing RT today does dent that theory but maybe it’ll take a wee bit longer for BC to learn the nuances of RT and they don’t want to throw him to wolves yet.

That glimmer is just my own opinion which is lower in my probability that he should have gotten G reps with all the injuries today as that’s an easier path to contributing and makes a big assumption that Moton is LT. 

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30 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I am not giving up on BC yet, I am just have concerns to see him buried so deep on the depth chart when we all know how poor some of the players are ahead of him. It's definitely not what I was expecting. We have to hope the light comes on sooner rather than later because he is one of the few guys on the roster that has a high ceiling.

Williams didn't play much his first year and became a 2nd team all pro.  Moton didn't play much his first year and we franchised him.  If you're concerned about BC you must have worried about Williams in the 2015 preseason and Moton in the 2017 preseason.  

We don't even know how much BC is going to play this year.  

You must be constantly "concerned".  
 

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35 minutes ago, SBBlue said:

Williams didn't play much his first year and became a 2nd team all pro.  Moton didn't play much his first year and we franchised him.  If you're concerned about BC you must have worried about Williams in the 2015 preseason and Moton in the 2017 preseason.  

We don't even know how much BC is going to play this year.  

You must be constantly "concerned".  
 

This is a far worse OL than either of those two units. Hence the concern. This is easily a bottom 5 unit in franchise history.

Calm down. Once again, you are getting emotional about a discussion. This message board thing just may not be for you.

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44 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Yep and an unfortunate part because our team graded him as a better G than T. The only glimmer of hope is that Erving being dinged again and BC being limited to RT might be a sign that Moton may go LT and BC may start at RT. Scott playing RT today does dent that theory but maybe it’ll take a wee bit longer for BC to learn the nuances of RT and they don’t want to throw him to wolves yet.

That glimmer is just my own opinion which is lower in my probability that he should have gotten G reps with all the injuries today as that’s an easier path to contributing and makes a big assumption that Moton is LT. 

Yeah, it was strange to see the guys they rolled through. Not much of BC or Brown. They seem to be on the "Greg Little" part of the OL unit. 

Well, Daley at least appears to have ascended the ranks, once again. If we can get him to stay healthy maybe he could be an upgrade. 

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