The Athletic FS - Bryce Conversation

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, *FreeFua* said:

Compared him to Andy Dalton. Said It would’ve been fine to draft Bryce late 1st/early 2nd and then take advantage of his rookie contract 

Like a few of us have mentioned they then go on to say the problem with these types is when it comes time to paying them

Once that Tua cap hit starts coming into play I think Miami will be toast. The problem is you build these super teams around some of these guys and they look good enough that teams are afraid to move on from them. How do you sell a fan base on moving on from a QB while you’re going to the playoffs. 

If Bryce’s ceiling is somewhere between Purdy/Tua is it possible to win a SB with him? I personally don’t see it

 

15 minutes ago, KSpan said:

Your last paragraph sums it up. It can happen, sure, but the odds are very slim and it will require a load of talent and perfect injury conditions to even be above zero chance.

I still don't see why Bryce's ceiling can't be a Drew Brees.  We're talking about ceiling...i.e. the absolute best case scenario (not what he is likely to become).  So he's miles away from that comparison, but I think they have similar strengths (brain, poise, anticipation) and similar weaknesses (physical limitations in size and arm strength).  I think the biggest obstacles to Bryce being in remotely the same league as Brees are his accuracy (particularly with his deep ball) and his sloppy footwork.  But Canales is making it a point of emphasis to coach up his footwork, and footwork is inextricably tied to a QB's accuracy.

[jayboogieman]

1 hour ago, *FreeFua* said:

If Bryce’s ceiling is somewhere between Purdy/Tua is it possible to win a SB with him? I personally don’t see it

For most fans, just having a few winning seasons with him will be enough.

[KSpan]

18 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

 

I still don't see why Bryce's ceiling can't be a Drew Brees.  We're talking about ceiling...i.e. the absolute best case scenario (not what he is likely to become).  So he's miles away from that comparison, but I think they have similar strengths (brain, poise, anticipation) and similar weaknesses (physical limitations in size and arm strength).  I think the biggest obstacles to Bryce being in remotely the same league as Brees are his accuracy (particularly with his deep ball) and his sloppy footwork.  But Canales is making it a point of emphasis to coach up his footwork, and footwork is inextricably tied to a QB's accuracy.

I'll continue to die on this hill, but Drew Brees in the back half of his career was the ultimate dink and dunk QB (I hesitate to say game manager, but that's the term commonly used for that), and that's not good enough to win a Super Bowl in today's NFL outside of the perfect conditions that I mentioned. Every SB-winning team has injury fortune and good luck of course, but they also have to create some luck on their own, and NO's lack of downfield threat due to Brees' arm was a reason they were never able to get back over the hump. Not the only reason of course, but a notable one.

Other people may be fully happy with being an annual also-ran, and if the stars align then that type of QB may win another Super Bowl sometime soon. I don't see the point in that but while only time will tell where Bryce falls, signs aren't overly positive IMO. If I'm wrong though then everyone wins.

Edited August 1 by KSpan

[Bear Hands]

1 hour ago, *FreeFua* said:

Compared him to Andy Dalton. Said It would’ve been fine to draft Bryce late 1st/early 2nd and then take advantage of his rookie contract 

Like a few of us have mentioned they then go on to say the problem with these types is when it comes time to paying them

Once that Tua cap hit starts coming into play I think Miami will be toast. The problem is you build these super teams around some of these guys and they look good enough that teams are afraid to move on from them. How do you sell a fan base on moving on from a QB while you’re going to the playoffs. 

If Bryce’s ceiling is somewhere between Purdy/Tua is it possible to win a SB with him? I personally don’t see it

Yeah that’s always the trick. Honestly, unless you win a conference with that type of QB, which will mean you would have built a great squad, the second contract becomes a huge deal.

Do you take the risk of investing in him again at the risk the overall team’s quality may drop with the reallocation to the QB room? Or do you reserve that bag for a real top-10 QB? The Derek Carr/Cousins 10-15 ranked range is what I don’t want to find ourselves locked into unless Canales and Morgan really construct a winner here.

[bythenbrs]

4 hours ago, Navy_football said:

Wait, wasn't that John Keynes? My undergrad was Economics. 

Definitive statements that won't change shouldn't be made if you want to leave room to change your stance. Bryce won't get taller so saying he's too short to ever be an effective QB is not a statement you'd want to make. Same with arm strength being the worst in the NFL, etc.

There is debate on that.  Some sources reference Keynes but Samuelson actually said that and it was captured in a transcript of the interview.  Perhaps Samuelson was paraphrasing  or quoting Keynes?

[*FreeFua*]

59 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

 

I still don't see why Bryce's ceiling can't be a Drew Brees.  We're talking about ceiling...i.e. the absolute best case scenario (not what he is likely to become).  So he's miles away from that comparison, but I think they have similar strengths (brain, poise, anticipation) and similar weaknesses (physical limitations in size and arm strength).  I think the biggest obstacles to Bryce being in remotely the same league as Brees are his accuracy (particularly with his deep ball) and his sloppy footwork.  But Canales is making it a point of emphasis to coach up his footwork, and footwork is inextricably tied to a QB's accuracy.

They do mention Brees but said he’s 1 of 1. Said it would take awhile for Bryce to get there. Which is fair. Brees became Brees due to understanding coverages and throwing to spots. If Bryce were to ever reach that ceiling would it still be with the Panthers? I don’t know if Tepper is patient enough. I personally think this season is a big one for Bryce. If the Panthers were banking on him becoming Drew Brees while acknowledging anything short of that probably results in him being a bottom third(?) QB in the league then that’s a crazy bet to make when deciding whether or not to draft a kid 1st overall. 

like you said, it’s his deep ball that MUST improve. It would open up so much for him. It’s why I’m wanting to see him throw deep in camp so badly. Seems like Canales is going to try and get Bryce out of the pocket more. Which will open things up. He’s good at keeping his eyes downfield. He’s capable of running. If he added a deep ball that defenses had to respect on top of those two things… we’d have something 
 

41 minutes ago, KSpan said:

I'll continue to die on this hill, but Drew Brees in the back half of his career was the ultimate dink and dunk QB (I hesitate to say game manager, but that's the term commonly used for that), and that's not good enough to win a Super Bowl in today's NFL outside of the perfect conditions that I mentioned. Every SB-winning team has injury fortune and good luck of course, but they also have to create some luck on their own, and NO's lack of downfield threat due to Brees' arm was a reason they were never able to get back over the hump. Not the only reason of course, but a notable one.

I agree. The Saints had such a well rounded roster. They had talent everywhere and should’ve won another SB. It was Brees arm that held that team back from winning another SB

[mrcompletely11]

5 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

They do mention Brees but said he’s 1 of 1. Said it would take awhile for Bryce to get there. Which is fair. Brees became Brees due to understanding coverages and throwing to spots. If Bryce were to ever reach that ceiling would it still be with the Panthers? I don’t know if Tepper is patient enough. I personally think this season is a big one for Bryce. If the Panthers were banking on him becoming Drew Brees while acknowledging anything short of that probably results in him being a bottom third(?) QB in the league then that’s a crazy bet to make when deciding whether or not to draft a kid 1st overall. 

like you said, it’s his deep ball that MUST improve. It would open up so much for him. It’s why I’m wanting to see him throw deep in camp so badly. Seems like Canales is going to try and get Bryce out of the pocket more. Which will open things up. He’s good at keeping his eyes downfield. He’s capable of running. If he added a deep ball that defenses had to respect on top of those two things… we’d have something 
 

I agree. The Saints had such a well rounded roster. They had talent everywhere and should’ve won another SB. It was Brees arm that held that team back from winning another SB

It wasn't brees arm it was a dirty ref

[Panthercougar68]

5 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

It wasn't brees arm it was a dirty ref

Yeah for real lol

[*FreeFua*]

Go to 2:24

Bryce deep ball to Mingo in 1 v 1’s

I just don’t know how you miss like that in 1v1’s as an NFL QB

[KSpan]

28 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

It wasn't brees arm it was a dirty ref

 

22 minutes ago, Panthercougar68 said:

Yeah for real lol

Yup, it was the ref that threw the inexplicable interception in overtime and who prevented the Saints from having the lead in the first place at the end of regulation when they kicked two red zone field goals.

I get the sentiment overall and it was a particularly egregious call, but no game ever really comes down to a single play. The Saints kicked 3 field goals of 37, 31, and 29 yard field goals while scoring 23 points. Not a good enough margin in the playoffs and it bit them.

Edited August 1 by KSpan

[ForJimmy]

12 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

Go to 2:24

Bryce deep ball to Mingo in 1 v 1’s

I just don’t know how you miss like that in 1v1’s as an NFL QB

There are plenty of examples of him missing, but I'm not sure this is a good one.  Mingo turns around and is running backwards to locate the ball?  Maybe he thought it was going to be a spot throw for a jump ball.  To me it looks like if he just kept facing the right direction running his route the ball would have been pretty close.  It's hard to tell without see what the actual play call was.  Pause it on 2:26 and you will see Mingo facing the wrong direction, engaging with the CB with the ball still in the air before it falls 3-4 yards beside him.  Regardless, I'm not sure whose fault it is (Young or Mingo), but I would chalk this up to a miscommunication.  

[mrcompletely11]

26 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

Go to 2:24

Bryce deep ball to Mingo in 1 v 1’s

I just don’t know how you miss like that in 1v1’s as an NFL QB

the lack of zip and the way his passes simply float is fuging wild

 

the 2 passes at 118 is holy fug.  At least try and hit them in stride

Edited August 1 by mrcompletely11

[*FreeFua*]

20 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

There are plenty of examples of him missing, but I'm not sure this is a good one.  Mingo turns around and is running backwards to locate the ball?  Maybe he thought it was going to be a spot throw for a jump ball.  To me it looks like if he just kept facing the right direction running his route the ball would have been pretty close.  It's hard to tell without see what the actual play call was.  Pause it on 2:26 and you will see Mingo facing the wrong direction, engaging with the CB with the ball still in the air before it falls 3-4 yards beside him.  Regardless, I'm not sure whose fault it is (Young or Mingo), but I would chalk this up to a miscommunication.  

He turns around to try and locate the ball because it’s underthrown and off to the side. There’s no other reason for Mingo to fully spin around like that

these are 1v1’s… it is damn near impossible to have a miscommunication. I’m sure it was a simply go and Mingo had position inside and Bryce threw outside for whatever reason 

This was what we saw last year where he didn’t even give his guys a chance. The ball would land a few yards out of bounds 

Edited August 1 by *FreeFua*

[ForJimmy]

1 hour ago, *FreeFua* said:

He turns around to try and locate the ball because it’s underthrown and off to the side. There’s no other reason for Mingo to fully spin around like that

these are 1v1’s… it is damn near impossible to have a miscommunication. I’m sure it was a simply go and Mingo had position inside and Bryce threw outside for whatever reason 

This was what we saw last year where he didn’t even give his guys a chance. The ball would land a few yards out of bounds 

Again we don’t know the route or where he was suppose to be. If they were on the same page the timing looks right. He stops and turns around to find the ball and its several yards off. Had he ran to that spot the timing would be right. You would need to know the play design before we can critique a 2 second frame of a WR trying to catch a pass. 

Either way it’s a timing/communication thing as most deep passes are. We know he is capable of throwing it accurately 55 yards as he did yesterday. They just need to work on timing/communication. If you want to ruing timing/communication you pressure the QB. That’s what we saw last year. 
 

Honestly Bryce with his feet set isn’t that much of a concern for me. Bryce holding the ball too long, being hesitant, and his power throwing longer passes on the run are my main concerns.