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Testing Huddle Consensus pt2

jfra78

By jfra78,
in Carolina Panthers

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Huddle Consensus Pt2  

137 members have voted

  1. 1. Player Available At 8, Who Do You Choose?

    • Tetairoa McMillan WR
      8
    • Will Cambell OT
      1
    • Ashton Jeanty RB
      1
    • Mike Green Edge
      7
    • Jalon Walker LB
      50
    • Will Johnson CB
      2
    • Malaki Starks S
      3
    • Mykel Williams Edge
      3
    • James Pearce Edge
      0
    • Tyler Warren TE
      16
    • Other player
      3
    • Trade back
      43

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SmokinwithWilly Grand Master

SmokinwithWilly

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, UnluckyforSome said:

The problem with trading down is that it needs a team willing to pay some sort of premium to move up for a player they feel is worth the spend. If we are sitting at 8 and every player available is an unworthy garbage reach, what team is dumb enough to move up? 

 

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SmokinwithWilly Grand Master

SmokinwithWilly

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Trade back would still be the best option. Getting an additional 2nd would be really welcome. It's not a non answer, it's beyond the best option if possible at this point. Grabbing a WR, FS and an edge or DL before the 3rd would be way better than anything those guys bring IMO. So many of those guys at 8 are solid but getting an additional solid guy would be so much more of a win given the state of the team and how this draft lines up.

Agreed. I don't think there's a true elite going to be there at 8. This draft just doesn't have that feel to me. If we can move down a few spots, pick up an extra 2nd and possibly a 3rd, we could try to fill in the holes we have on D or grab a guy that slid out of the 1st for whatever reason. No guys with raw potential. Don't get fancy. 

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UnluckyforSome Veteran

UnluckyforSome

Posted
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, La Pantera said:

You hope Jeanty is there and the Cowboys or Bears want him. 

Or one of the QB needy teams make a move for Sanders or Dart.

a team in need of a OT could move up for Will Campbell.

I am not sure of where Sanders will go. I would be surprised if he is there at 8. 

Dart would be a Panthers/Browns/Jets level of stupid at 8.

A tackle at 8 I could see. Of course, a tackle would not be terrible choice for us. Move Ikey and his pass block deficient self to right after next year and put our 2nd year left tackle, that can hopefully pass block in his spot on the line.

Edited by UnluckyforSome
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Cuttinedge Rising Star

Cuttinedge

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, jfra78 said:

I'm warming up to the idea of Will Johnson if Walker and Graham are off the table

I’d rather have Johnson than a TE or a DE that has questionable athleticism or lack luster stats in college

Between him and horn pass rush won’t have to be elite to get more shots at the QB 

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Panthero Mentor

Panthero

Posted
Posted

Either Johnson (cb) or walker (olb/de). The need and the draft value is right for both. A pass catcher should be considered as well. If we hit big on a WR/TR, then the corp is set for four years. The old PFF guys have showed how important pass catching is in the modern NFL. Sets everything else up. 

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rebelrouser Mentor

rebelrouser

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, UnluckyforSome said:

The problem with trading down is that it needs a team willing to pay some sort of premium to move up for a player they feel is worth the spend. If we are sitting at 8 and every player available is an unworthy garbage reach, what team is dumb enough to move up? 

Every team has different evaluations and needs.  I think Sanders falling is a real possibility and the two OT's, TE, and top WR and RB might actually be at 8 too.   It is no guarantee though and a plan needs to be in place in case we don't get any offer to trade back. 

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Tr3ach Grand Master

Tr3ach

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Agreed. I don't think there's a true elite going to be there at 8. This draft just doesn't have that feel to me. If we can move down a few spots, pick up an extra 2nd and possibly a 3rd, we could try to fill in the holes we have on D or grab a guy that slid out of the 1st for whatever reason. No guys with raw potential. Don't get fancy. 

I agree.  If you look at that list there are a lot of players that i would say we would probably have ranked really close to the same, and on that list who are you 100% sure won't make it to pick 14 or so?  Not many.

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rodeo Veteran

rodeo

Posted
Posted

Every single year with the trading down fans. Ask the Patriots how they feel about trading down with the Chargers, who took McKonkey, to take two WRs who combined for like 1 half of a game worth of McKonkey's production.

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Panthercougar68 Grand Master

Panthercougar68

Posted
Posted

I want Graham but according to the Athletic intel article today the first round is sounding like it’s gonna play out this way

1.Ward

2.Carter

3.Sanders

4.Hunter

5.Graham 

6.Walker

7.Membou

8.Mykel Williams which makes sense with Walker going earlier than people think.

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jfra78 Grand Master

jfra78

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 minute ago, Panthercougar68 said:

I want Graham but according to the Athletic intel article today the first round is sounding like it’s gonna play out this way

1.Ward

2.Carter

3.Sanders

4.Hunter

5.Graham 

6.Walker

7.Membou

8.Mykel Williams which makes sense with Walker going earlier than people think.

In that scenario try like hell to trade back.  If you can't, pick Johnson and get your edge in the second

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    • CPantherKing
      So, just what is it that makes a QB "elite"?

      By CPantherKing · Posted

      I've explained this in more detail before. Briefly, there's a process to quickly evaluate a QB. Also, there's a type of QB that excels at a higher rate than others at the pro level. After that, it's about keeping the QBs flowing through the system. 1st round QBs are not superior, they just get more reps and game time. You can find just as many competitive QBs that are 3rd day or undrafted if you give them the same reps and game time. Now, to dive deeper for fun. To understand this further, there are rare 1st round QB exceptions, but they must come with a pro pedigree and proven success in college. There's only 1 to 3 of these QBs every decade (John Elway 1983, Peyton Manning 1998, Eli Manning 2004, Andrew Luck 2012, Jared Goff 2016, Patrick Mahomes 2017, and Joe Burrow 2020. That's 1 of every 20 1st round QBs (5% of historical 1st round QBs in modern draft era). When you look at 1st rd QB success, eliminate these rare ones from your samples because they are trained to be championship QBs. 100% of them have taken their team to a championship. Also, the Bill Walsh tree knows the formula for building an offense and finding a QB QUICKLY. The question is why haven't others figured it out & continue to waste draft capital on QBs? Based on my QB evaluation system, here's the QBs I had slotted for the Panthers over the past 10 drafts. Patrick Mahomes, Brad Kaaya, Cooper Rush, Lamar Jackson, Brett Rypien, Tyler Huntley, Jalen Hurts, Shane Buechele, Desmond Ridder, Brock Purdy, Aqeel Glass, Jack Coan, Aidan O'Connell, Tanner McKee, Spencer Rattler, Devin Leary, Sam Hartman, Quinn Ewers. The ones in bold were the ones that rated the highest for pro championship qualities (probable franchise QBs). Obviously,  we didn't need them all, but it's about flow of pro championship qualities shown in college and not the most physically gifted. Also, there are a few QBs every decade who have the qualities, but never get a chance. If you're talent evaluation/QB system is good enough, you can go get 2 to 3 of them tomorrow to show what they can do when their name is called. I expect 1 of every 6 QBs to be worthy of being a franchise QB. There's strict rules to the depth chart qualifications, rotation, minimum KPIs and cuts/trades for me. Panthers have had Collins, Beuerlein, Weinke, Delhomme, Clausen, Newton, Bridgewater, Darnold, and Young. If you include Lewis, Peete, Allen and Mayfield, the Panthers have had 3 of 13 championship level franchise QBs. 1 of 5 (1 of 6 if you don't count Collins). It's the same for every franchise. The difference is a certain coaching tree knows how to move them through quicker than all the others while building defense with the most valuable draft picks. For Walsh, Montana(3rd rd) was his 3rd QB and Young(trade) was his 12th (9 yrs). He had a process allowing him to move through them rapidly. For Holmgren, Favre(trade) was his 4th QB and Hasselbeck(6th rd/trade) was his 15th QB (10 yrs). Neither of them settled on or tried to solve the problems of their 1st QB. For Andy Reid, McNabb(1st rd) was his 2nd QB and Mahomes(1st rd) was his 15th QB (19yrs). For John Harbaugh, Flacco(1st rd) was his 1st and Jackson(1st rd) was his 8th (11 yrs). For Sean McVay, Goff(1st rd) was his 1st and Stafford(trade) was his 5th (5yrs). Reid was the slow and stubborn one who wouldn't move on from his QB & had to wait nearly 2 decades to grab a QB that is the rare exception. I present this to show how 1st round picks are wasted on QBs, and it's the process fitting the QB to the system that generates success. Championship leader qualities and a process to move through QBs for a single coach's offense until you find a winner is the formula. The ages of these QBs from the Walsh tree when they won their first SB: Montana(25), Young(33), Favre(27), Mahomes(24), Flacco(27), and Stafford (33). Mahomes is the only sports pedigree QB exception on this list. QBs selected in the top 20 picks that weren't a pedigree QB were discarded by the team that drafted them. It will continue to be the same for the QB position as the dynamics of an offense from coach to field to team to clutch moments are not going to change. The combines/draft is just a media show that will only highlight the rare pedigree exceptions at QB for the NFL. You can line up ANY 12 QBs demonstrating success in college with the pro championship level qualities right now & you'll find a couple franchise QBs. Overrated arm strength & athleticism mean absolutely nothing for success at the pro level (that's a bonus). If they had enough of the tangibles to consistently succeed in college, it will translate to the pros. Currently, the Panthers are on QB #1 being shoved into Canales' system. Hooker is Canales' 4th QB (5th if you count Bryce Perkins). The Panthers only need to get Young out of the way and start giving these QBs a shot. If a GM can't fit a QB with the offensive coach in 6 QBs, then it's time to move to a new GM. For Canales' system, I'd go with Cooper Rush(trade), Tyler Huntley(available/ps), Desmond Ridder(available), Jack Coan(available), Aqeel Glass(available), Tanner McKee(trade), Sam Hartman(available/ps), Devin Leary(available), Hendon Hooker(on roster), Clayton Tune(available/ps), Chris Oladokun(available/ps), DJ Uiagalelei(available/ps) and Shane Buechele(available/ps). No particular order. This just demonstrates the winning process at QB to build a winning team. 7 of these QBs have been chosen by SB winning coaches. The point is to line them up and have one head coach with one offensive system move through them as quickly as possible until one of them holds on to the starting position with success and claims the franchise QB title. I expect the top 20 1st round picks for a franchise QB is the only way crowd to attack this and the Bill Walsh tree. Likely going to tell you that 6th round & later QBs as well as the Walsh tree are the sole outliers. We can count more 6th round and later championship QBs(13) than we can the 1st round pedigree QBs(7). As for the other 47 SB QBs, only 15 QBs have been drafted in the top 20 and led their first team to the SB. The best return is the pedigree 1st round QB, but this is rare. As for top 20 pick QBs that aren't pedigree, you're better off running 6th round and later QBs through the offensive system as quick as possible while spending that top 20 1st round pick on core defense or the rare dual threat skill position player. I don't expect the typical media driven fan to agree. I know SB winning coaches keep signing my college QB targets.
    • Jay Roosevelt
      MNF double header

      By Jay Roosevelt · Posted

      Best QB I've seen this year so far, with all due respect to Allen and Jackson.
    • PNW_PantherMan
      MNF double header

      By PNW_PantherMan · Posted

      What’s with the chargers run game?  They were good last year 
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