Coker shined at practice today!!

[frankw]

1 minute ago, CPcavedweller said:

I think that largely depends on play calling, and Theilen being available. The Panthers need a guy who can carve up a defense and it showed last year when Adam was in versus when he was out. I still think we should have taken Matthew Golden instead of King Tet but we're here now. Gotta make lemonade. 

Put it this way. If our ability to compete hinges on 35 year old Thielen's availability after drafting WR in the first two years in a row then someone needs to be fired.

[CPcavedweller]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

A good WR is infinitely more valuable than a JAG MLB. Even if they were of equal skill, positional value has WR exceptionally ahead.

Positional value of a 3rd receiver is higher than a starting MLB? You build defenses inside out and front to back. A good defensive line can make good linebackers look like great linebackers. Good linebackers can make good secondary players look like great secondary players.

Look at Kurt Coleman as an example. Luke Kuechly and Co. made it possible for Coleman to have an All-Pro like season. Same thing for Josh Norman. 

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

Positional value of a 3rd receiver is higher than a starting MLB? You build defenses inside out and front to back. A good defensive line can make good linebackers look like great linebackers. Good linebackers can make good secondary players look like great secondary players.

Look at Kurt Coleman as an example. Luke Kuechly and Co. made it possible for Coleman to have an All-Pro like season. Same thing for Josh Norman. 

If you have paid attention to the NFL recently, the league is telling you this. Follow the money.

[CPcavedweller]

3 minutes ago, frankw said:

Put it this way. If our ability to compete hinges on 35 year old Thielen's availability after drafting WR in the first two years in a row then someone needs to be fired.

I agree with you. The difference between Adam being on the field and not being on the field is tangible. I don't think Tet is going to change that dynamic. That's why I wanted Golden. Give him a year or two behind Adam to learn the ins and outs of the NFL game and man, he would be dangerous. He's already going to be dangerous on his own but let him play behind one of the best route runners this generation of receivers and let him go. 

Given Bryce's game, I didn't like the Tet pick. So whether our success hinges on Adam really depends on how comfortable Bryce is throwing to covered receivers, because Tet has issues getting off of coverage. That was known from Arizona and doesn't seem to be any different here. 

[CPcavedweller]

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

If you have paid attention to the NFL recently, the league is telling you this. Follow the money.

You're not going to change my mind on this. Defenses are worse today than they were. Positional value is irrelevant because relative defensive performance still wins championships. Even if defenses are not as good as they once were, it simply means teams are thinking that offensive spending leads to more wins and the Bengals and Eagles proved that isn't the case, on opposite ends of the spectrum. Give me a 2015 Panthers set-up with a better offensive coordinator and more consistent QB play over what the Bengel's are trying to do. 

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, CPcavedweller said:

You're not going to change my mind on this. Defenses are worse today than they were. Positional value is irrelevant because relative defensive performance still wins championships. Even if defenses are not as good as they once were, it simply means teams are thinking that offensive spending leads to more wins and the Bengals and Eagles proved that isn't the case, on opposite ends of the spectrum. Give me a 2015 Panthers set-up with a better offensive coordinator and more consistent QB play over what the Bengel's are trying to do. 

Buddy, you can wish all you want for an elite defense but that isn't happening whether we got this ho-hum MLB on the roster or not. That takes a lot more time and investment than one transaction or one offseason.

This is Matt Rhule/Scott Fitterer era thinking. We are always one move away.

[frankw]

5 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

I agree with you. The difference between Adam being on the field and not being on the field is tangible. I don't think Tet is going to change that dynamic. That's why I wanted Golden. Give him a year or two behind Adam to learn the ins and outs of the NFL game and man, he would be dangerous. He's already going to be dangerous on his own but let him play behind one of the best route runners this generation of receivers and let him go. 

Given Bryce's game, I didn't like the Tet pick. So whether our success hinges on Adam really depends on how comfortable Bryce is throwing to covered receivers, because Tet has issues getting off of coverage. That was known from Arizona and doesn't seem to be any different here. 

I liked Golden as a prospect too. But I think you are selling TMac short on what he brings to the field. The kid is going to be a problem for defenses. I think both of them will have good careers. Ultimately if Bryce can't succeed with a talent like TMac then I just don't think it's going to happen. At that point you shoot your shot again on QB in the next draft.

[CPcavedweller]

1 minute ago, frankw said:

I liked Golden as a prospect too. But I think you are selling TMac short on what he brings to the field. The kid is going to be a problem for defenses. I think both of them will have good careers. Ultimately if Bryce can't succeed with a talent like TMac then I just don't think it's going to happen. At that point you shoot your shot again on QB in the next draft.

Eh. The Dolphins doubled down on what Tua does well, which is similar to what Bryce does well, and went out and got world class route runners with world class speed. The Dolphin's have lost because Tua has a concussion problem. 

You help your quarterback and I think Bryce can be an All-Pro caliber player, based on what we saw last season, particularly when Adam got back. So rather than forcing the issue and taking guys who are very talented, but don't fit, I think you go get guys that fit what your QB does well. Golden would have been the perfect player for what Bryce does well.

As for Tet, he is a talent to be sure, but he has trouble creating separation. He had issues in Arizona with this, and he's had issues in camp. Nearly every ball against man coverage is contested, and that's not a good thing no matter who your QB is. 

[ncsfinest21]

15 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

Positional value of a 3rd receiver is higher than a starting MLB? You build defenses inside out and front to back. A good defensive line can make good linebackers look like great linebackers. Good linebackers can make good secondary players look like great secondary players.

Look at Kurt Coleman as an example. Luke Kuechly and Co. made it possible for Coleman to have an All-Pro like season. Same thing for Josh Norman. 

This right here. I wish people understood this. Defensive line initiates everything. Pressure from the front 4 will dictate your defense. No pressure a avg QB will carve you up. Pressure will cause any QB to either take a sack or throw early leading to ints. Then when it comes to run, the front 4 makes gaps to where LBs can shoot gaps easily. Same thing on offense. Good online gives QB time to throw or scramble and makes holes for the RB.

[CPcavedweller]

5 minutes ago, ncsfinest21 said:

This right here. I wish people understood this. Defensive line initiates everything. Pressure from the front 4 will dictate your defense. No pressure a avg QB will carve you up. Pressure will cause any QB to either take a sack or throw early leading to ints. Then when it comes to run, the front 4 makes gaps to where LBs can shoot gaps easily. Same thing on offense. Good online gives QB time to throw or scramble and makes holes for the RB.

A good offensive line can make an average running back look like an All-Pro, and can at least make a QB look competent. 

People get it to a point but man, receivers and corners good enough to get the job done are a dime a dozen. They sell jerseys though. 

[LinvilleGorge]

22 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

You're not going to change my mind on this. Defenses are worse today than they were. Positional value is irrelevant because relative defensive performance still wins championships. Even if defenses are not as good as they once were, it simply means teams are thinking that offensive spending leads to more wins and the Bengals and Eagles proved that isn't the case, on opposite ends of the spectrum. Give me a 2015 Panthers set-up with a better offensive coordinator and more consistent QB play over what the Bengel's are trying to do. 

How many SBs did we win with our history of great LB play? Positional value tells you everything. An elite talent at any position is certainly a nice asset to have, but teams aren't spending high end draft picks and paying top tier money for off the ball LBs for a reason. They've determined those assets are better spent elsewhere and that there's less drop off from great to good or good to serviceable at LB than most other positions when it comes to the overall performance of the unit.

[frankw]

5 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

Eh. The Dolphins doubled down on what Tua does well, which is similar to what Bryce does well, and went out and got world class route runners with world class speed. The Dolphin's have lost because Tua has a concussion problem. 

You help your quarterback and I think Bryce can be an All-Pro caliber player, based on what we saw last season, particularly when Adam got back. So rather than forcing the issue and taking guys who are very talented, but don't fit, I think you go get guys that fit what your QB does well. Golden would have been the perfect player for what Bryce does well.

As for Tet, he is a talent to be sure, but he has trouble creating separation. He had issues in Arizona with this, and he's had issues in camp. Nearly every ball against man coverage is contested, and that's not a good thing no matter who your QB is. 

I don't really want to get into the weeds about Tua again. If he's a comp to Bryce then we're already cooked. He is mediocre.

Between the OL Legette Coker TMac our young TE's and our backfield it's a sink or swim season.

[PNW_PantherMan]

9 minutes ago, CPcavedweller said:

People get it to a point but man, receivers and corners good enough to get the job done are a dime a dozen. They sell jerseys though. 

Certainly hasn't been the case for this team.  Ever.

[Basbear]

1 hour ago, Mr Mojo Risin said:

Panthers made Horn the highest paid DB...can't really use that as a comparison

Parsons was on the 2nd highest point total allowed defense, so he sucks too..... He's also on a one year deal. 

Fact and point of that comment was to point out there are good/great/and even elite players on bad/30th rank units. 

Lloyd has been great from his first snap and only missed 4 or so games in 3 years. He is not a reason for jags defense suckage.