Coach asked about Coker!!

[Navy_football]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

it's not even about a better QB.  It's about fit, offensive scheme and what you are asking and expecting out of folks.  That how you get success. 

where you land matters in the NFL.  It's one of the most important aspects of success.  We all knew XL wouldn't fit a BY offense.  He fit the classic Canales one.  And we simply do not throw those balls.  And those balls are not about being a polished WR.  The ones BY throws are. 

 

Yeah, but what's a classic Canales offense? We can't go by the one year as a playcaller in Tampa, as the way he develops an offense. I recall him saying he mostly creates an offense to fit his players. 

I think he saw XL as a player he could use as a chess piece. Unfortunately injuries and Diontae crashing out last year changed that. XL is best at crossers (deep or shallow) that allow him to run away from defenders and catch the ball in stride. Timing routes that require goods hands and reaction is not his forte. 

[ForJimmy]

30 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

The biggest difference is the McConkey was a consistent producer and XL literally never produced anything his entire career minus his 5th year. He had 32 starts in 53 career games to the 22 starts in 39 games for McConkey. 

It's never going to be a true apples to apples comparison because XL was thought to be a #1 WR and McConkey was always going to be a slot guy. 

The arguments(of which I made myself) largely came down to taking a hail mary on a project/high ceiling #1 WR versus taking an extremely high floor but higher injury risk slot WR. This obviously came with the caveat that we had an effective AT and it was somewhat of a redundant take.

I fell on the side of taking the clear football player over the guy that might one day become a football player.

Ladd's other two years were 500 total scrimmage yards one with 3 TDs and one with 6.  This issue he had was battling some injuries which again is another risk with his size playing at the next level.  People want to pretend like Ladd was a sure thing to dunk on XL, but there was a reason Ladd fell to the 2nd round.  

[Navy_football]

18 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

If you can't be where you are supposed to be, when you are supposed to be there, you have a limited timeframe as an NFL WR. 

Almost any decent WR should be able to get open in the scenario of an insane athlete scrambling to allow guys time to work on a DB. 

We need him to get better across the board. He needs to not just be a freak athlete out there running around but become proficient at his craft. Guys like Devante Adams and Justin Jefferson aren't just great athletes, they are insane tacticians and masters of their craft.

If it was all about size/speed, DK Metcalf would be the GOAT.

Yep. Draft WRs to play WR. He'll never be a DeVante or JJ. That's just not in the cards. But he could carve out a role like Tedd Ginn or Deebo and make very real contributions for the team. Most games come down to a play or two that could win or lose it for you. If he can pull out a play or two a game, that would be huge. He isn't ready to be a 10 catch a game, full route tree WR right now. Maybe never. But that doesn't mean he can't be useful. 

[Navy_football]

7 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Ladd's other two years were 500 total scrimmage yards one with 3 TDs and one with 6.  This issue he had was battling some injuries which again is another risk with his size playing at the next level.  People want to pretend like Ladd was a sure thing to dunk on XL, but there was a reason Ladd fell to the 2nd round.  

That's what I thought too. Then he drafted a RB currently healing from an ACL tear with the next pick, so...

[Icege]

XL's role is what Ted Ginn's was: take the top off of defenses... only make him 0.11sec slower but 40lbs heavier.

 

Edited August 12 by Icege

[mrcompletely11]

40 minutes ago, jtm said:

He was raw out of college and he looked raw last year.  The talent is there and if folks don't see that then they are just looking to hate.  He needs to polish his game to remain a starter and I'm pulling for him because he is so likeable.  

you could say this exact same thing about dj Johnson

[mrcompletely11]

17 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Ladd's other two years were 500 total scrimmage yards one with 3 TDs and one with 6.  This issue he had was battling some injuries which again is another risk with his size playing at the next level.  People want to pretend like Ladd was a sure thing to dunk on XL, but there was a reason Ladd fell to the 2nd round.  

He wasnt a sure thing per se but he was the type of elite route running sure handed wr that bryce needs

[ForJimmy]

1 minute ago, mrcompletely11 said:

He wasnt a sure thing per se but he was the type of elite route running sure handed wr that bryce needs

Let’s be honest. He would be on IR if he was a Panther. 

[CRA]

12 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

Yeah, but what's a classic Canales offense? We can't go by the one year as a playcaller in Tampa, as the way he develops an offense. I recall him saying he mostly creates an offense to fit his players. 

I think he saw XL as a player he could use as a chess piece. Unfortunately injuries and Diontae crashing out last year changed that. XL is best at crossers (deep or shallow) that allow him to run away from defenders and catch the ball in stride. Timing routes that require goods hands and reaction is not his forte. 

It's his time in Tampa and all his time in Seattle.  And what he did in Tampa was very similar to what they did in Seattle.   And many supported XL because he fit into what Canales has always did and been about everywhere.    It's deep passing.  It's chunk plays.  Everything he has been about. 

and then Carolina moved on from BY in just 2 short weeks.   The one thing that didn't fit what Dave did.  And it was done.  Over.  

No one, no one could of predicted how BY messed up their vision/plan last year when they basically were forced to put him back in.   I mean, that is what happened. 

I still contend I was cool with BY.  But you got to be all in on that.  We never were from the very start.   

I was cool with Canales.  But be all in on that brand of football. 

I don't like no man's land and random parts and "making it work".  That's been the approach that got us to being the worst org in all of pro sports. 

[kungfoodude]

21 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Ladd's other two years were 500 total scrimmage yards one with 3 TDs and one with 6.  This issue he had was battling some injuries which again is another risk with his size playing at the next level.  People want to pretend like Ladd was a sure thing to dunk on XL, but there was a reason Ladd fell to the 2nd round.  

The point largely being is that he was a far surer thing than XL, which says alot about that pick in the first place, IMO.

Ladd fell for the reasons listed and also that a guy without exceptional size, reach and speed is rarely ever going to command a premium position. TBH, him being drafted where he was is a true testament to how good of a prospect he WAS viewed. Normally guys in his mold are mid-round picks.

[ForJimmy]

29 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

The point largely being is that he was a far surer thing than XL, which says alot about that pick in the first place, IMO.

Ladd fell for the reasons listed and also that a guy without exceptional size, reach and speed is rarely ever going to command a premium position. TBH, him being drafted where he was is a true testament to how good of a prospect he WAS viewed. Normally guys in his mold are mid-round picks.

I think part of it is the pedigree too. Playing for Georgia or Alabama is going to raise your draft position a bit as well. 

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

It's his time in Tampa and all his time in Seattle.  And what he did in Tampa was very similar to what they did in Seattle.   And many supported XL because he fit into what Canales has always did and been about everywhere.    It's deep passing.  It's chunk plays.  Everything he has been about. 

and then Carolina moved on from BY in just 2 short weeks.   The one thing that didn't fit what Dave did.  And it was done.  Over.  

No one, no one could of predicted how BY messed up their vision/plan last year when they basically were forced to put him back in.   I mean, that is what happened. 

I still contend I was cool with BY.  But you got to be all in on that.  We never were from the very start.   

I was cool with Canales.  But be all in on that brand of football. 

I don't like no man's land and random parts and "making it work".  That's been the approach that got us to being the worst org in all of pro sports. 

I wouldn't say we are random, we keep rinsing and repeating over and over and over. That basically makes the building blocks keep changing. You had Legos, now you got Erector pieces, Lincoln logs, etc, etc.

I think that is the larger issue in terms of the perceived randomness. 

That said, it isn't as if we have a core group of players that are multi-year guys. Our long tenured vets are very few and far between.

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I think part of it is the pedigree too. Playing for Georgia or Alabama is going to raise your draft position a bit as well. 

I think there is definitely some of that, no doubt. But those guys also tumble down the draft and you see guys from small schools fly up the boards. It's workouts and combines and all the other details that can make or break a player during the draft.

[CRA]

1 hour ago, Navy_football said:

Yep. Draft WRs to play WR. He'll never be a DeVante or JJ. That's just not in the cards. But he could carve out a role like Tedd Ginn or Deebo and make very real contributions for the team. Most games come down to a play or two that could win or lose it for you. If he can pull out a play or two a game, that would be huge. He isn't ready to be a 10 catch a game, full route tree WR right now. Maybe never. But that doesn't mean he can't be useful. 

If you were to take the Time Machine back though..

DeVante Adams had less yards, less TDs, and a HIGHER drop % than XL as a rookie with prime Aaron Rodgers throwing the ball to him.  DeVante Adams was never going to be “DeVante Adams” either.   Adams had a rough start to the NFL.  In fact his next year was worse than his rookie year…and was regarded as one of the worst WRs playing in the NFL. 

people forget that journey to the top. One of the best dig yourself out of the grave stories of the last couple decades given he made it to largely being regarded as the best in the business. 

*not saying it happens with XL,  but DeVante is an example of why you don’t count someone out, not one of why someone is hopeless.