Hey You, You Don't Know Quarterbacking

[dep]

6 minutes ago, strato said:

We have a language barrier here.

 CRA saying he can’t play beyond 20 yards is NOT saying he can’t throw the ball 20 yards. 
 

That ain’t the flex you think it is. 

Its not hard to see why Wunderhill remembered it that way is it?

Also, thats not how you use the word flex 

[Mr. Scot]

15 hours ago, fieryprophet said:

I'm going to be real, the reason that vote ended up so lop-sided by the end was directly due to my programming. So there's nothing tongue in cheek about it. Also I left PFF after the Collinsworth acquisition (didn't want to move to Cincy) but have stayed involved in analytics via backdoor channels, but I can absolutely say that the experience was eye-opening, not because those guys are unquestionable football savants and that I became one by proxy, but because the amount of information that becomes available outside of what the typical fan has access to is revelatory and also really drives home how much context is still being missed even with all of that information. You don't discover that you know everything, you discover how much you still can't know no matter how hard you try, hence my point about the NFL not being able to figure out what makes a QB good. There's a lot of AI work going into that now and even that only seems to further confuse things vs. actually enlighten the problem.

In the professional realm teams don't really talk about quarterbacks as A strictly being better than B, but how A can potentially perform better than B given a specific context of C. Of course those contexts may be wider for A than B, but there's also contexts where B can outshine A, even with lesser talent surrounding them. So what good teams strive to do is ultimately define a process of how they want their entire team to operate under schematically, find players that fit that scheme, and hopefully find a guy whose skillset will be maximized running that scheme with those players. Where bad teams fall of the wagon is constantly shifting those schemes and chasing bad fits or fads vs. sticking with a core identity and developing it.

Learning how much you don't know is a good step.

It's kind of similar with coaches, personnel people, executives, etc. We all want the guy who ran a successful team to be part of our organization. He was a winner there, so it's guaranteed he'll also be a winner here...

Right?

Then we get him, and he stinks.

What the heck? That can't be right

Bottom Line: a professional football organization is a machine that has about a kajilloon moving parts, and for all of them to work together successfully and harmoniously can sometimes be borderline miraculous.

It's real people, the same kind that work at your job.

And people complicate everything.

[CRA]

3 minutes ago, dep said:

Its not hard to see why Wunderhill remembered it that way is it?

Also, thats not how you use the word flex 

Did you see how quickly and easily I addressed I didn’t mean he literally couldn’t throw the ball? 

it’s hard to imagine anyone arguing he literally couldn’t do it and being serious.  I haven’t seen it.  He claims it exists somewhere 

[strato]

18 minutes ago, dep said:

Its not hard to see why Wunderhill remembered it that way is it?

Also, thats not how you use the word flex 

I bet my opinion of ‘why’ will not align with yours.
 

I see it as people are resorting to arguing false premises.
We see it daily in the real world. 

Their motivations are what they are, I could say it is because the real doesn’t favor their feelings. But I can’t really know that. I don’t know why a person resorts to that but it happens all the time. 
 

PS and BTW, Underhill wasn’t alone in arguing that, and I don’t think he was the instigator, he picked up the torch. 
 

I take back my apologies to these folks because now I see what their claims were based on. False premises. 

Edited 3 hours ago by strato

[ForJimmy]

14 minutes ago, CRA said:

Did you see how quickly and easily I addressed I didn’t mean he literally couldn’t throw the ball? 

it’s hard to imagine anyone arguing he literally couldn’t do it and being serious.  I haven’t seen it.  He claims it exists somewhere 

It’s when people say he can’t make “NFL throws” of 20 yards or more. So it’s saying he can’t throw it over 20 yards in the NFL. He did several times last week (he also did the 2nd half of the season) so it shifted to the guys have to be wide open. His arm isn’t the problem. It’s his fundamentals. 

[dep]

27 minutes ago, CRA said:

Did you see how quickly and easily I addressed I didn’t mean he literally couldn’t throw the ball? 

it’s hard to imagine anyone arguing he literally couldn’t do it and being serious.  I haven’t seen it.  He claims it exists somewhere 

I didnt realize how stupid the statement actually was, i would like to see the person arguing that lol

[CRA]

10 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

It’s when people say he can’t make “NFL throws” of 20 yards or more. So it’s saying he can’t throw it over 20 yards in the NFL. He did several times last week (he also did the 2nd half of the season) so it shifted to the guys have to be wide open. His arm isn’t the problem. It’s his fundamentals. 

yeah, I can get a little of that.  But that's not what he is posting in his argument just now though.   He said people wouldn't even concede to the literal ability to do it when pressed on the literal ability.  I have never seen that.  He maintains it exists somewhere. 

I mean, using anomaly games to make arguments about players just isn't the way.   There wasn't a defender within 10 yards of our guys on 2 of those 3 throws Sunday.  No one within 5 on the 3rd.   That's not Bryce Young answering questions about his play downfield..  That's Bryce Young taking advantage of coverage busts by a bad D.  Which hey, that's part of the game too.  Recognition and seeing the field.   It can't totally be dismissed.   That's still good play.  You want your QBs to make those plays.  But it's not getting into the long standing critique of BY IMO. 

 

[ForJimmy]

12 minutes ago, CRA said:

yeah, I can get a little of that.  But that's not what he is posting in his argument just now though.   He said people wouldn't even concede to the literal ability to do it when pressed on the literal ability.  I have never seen that.  He maintains it exists somewhere. 

I mean, using anomaly games to make arguments about players just isn't the way.   There wasn't a defender within 10 yards of our guys on 2 of those 3 throws Sunday.  No one within 5 on the 3rd.   That's not Bryce Young answering questions about his play downfield..  That's Bryce Young taking advantage of coverage busts by a bad D.  Which hey, that's part of the game too.  Recognition and seeing the field.   It can't totally be dismissed.   That's still good play.  You want your QBs to make those plays.  But it's not getting into the long standing critique of BY IMO. 

 

I only used it because it’s being said he can’t.  I’ve said this 100 times already but these deep passes people get obsessed with are much more on the WR than the QB. If Burrow throws a bomb to Chase and he is either wide open or makes a catch in tight coverage those both are more WR plays than QB to me. 
Bryce has shown many flaws but I don’t think throwing the ball 20 yards to a player in coverage is something he or any NFL QB can’t do. He just gets sloppy under pressure and tries some Mahomes type backfoot throws that do require elite arm strength in which he does not have. 

[CRA]

Just now, ForJimmy said:

I only used it because it’s being said he can’t.  I’ve said this 100 times already but these deep passes people get obsessed with are much more on the WR than the QB. If Burrow throws a bomb to Chase and he is either wide open or makes a catch in tight coverage those both are more WR plays than QB to me. 
Bryce has shown many flaws but I don’t think throwing the ball 20 yards to a player in coverage is something he or any NFL QB can’t do. He just gets sloppy under pressure and tries some Mahomes type backfoot throws that do require elite arm strength in which he does not have. 

I do not believe a person exists that here that literally says he can't throw 20 yards. 

I say he can't.  Because statistically, he rarely does it vs his peers and the results when he does are way worse than his peers.  And IMO you can clearly see NFL Ss cheat coverage assignments because of it which then makes the intermediate stuff harder.  Results are all that matter and we are 3 years in to the show.   

[LinvilleGorge]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

As to the topic, I've complained before about "superstar" mentality, i.e. the notion that you can win championships with one superstar player surrounded by a group of mediocre fill ins.

It just doesn't work.

The Manning-Brady rivalry was something of a showcase for that. The Colts general approach focused everything on Manning. The Patriots? Oh, they also had a superstar quarterback but they built a complete team, especially on the defensive side.

This sort of thing is why I've argued many times that "system quarterback" should be to considered a description, not an insult.

I know everybody loves the "MVP" athletic types, and they're fun to watch, but that's not necessarily the true path to consistent winning and championship glory.

Yeah, if you can find a GOAT level QB willing to play at a discount because his supermodel wife is bringing in even more that's a sweet deal... and because he craves success due to being completely looked over in the draft and forever wants to prove everyone wrong due to that. The problem is that has proven so far to be a one of one situation.

[PNW_PantherMan]

At the end of the day, I just don't think there is much evidence to suggest that Bryce Young is significantly above a replacement level QB.  I don't think it's that controversial.

The level of whatever is going on in this thread to suggest people don't have eyes is just insane.

[LinvilleGorge]

13 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

At the end of the day, I just don't think there is much evidence to suggest that Bryce Young is significantly above a replacement level QB.  I don't think it's that controversial.

The level of whatever is going on in this thread to suggest people don't have eyes is just insane.

It's the same thing that made Bryce the #1 overall pick. I've never seen such mass delusion about a football player before. Everyone convinced themselves that the fact that Bryce was below to severely below average in practically every physical attribute for an NFL QB just wouldn't matter because he has everything else you need and that'll more than make up for it. When has such an argument ever been made for an NFL prospect before? We watch prospects plummet every year because they run a couple tenths slower in the 40 time than expected. Smitty had everything you want in a receiver except he was 5'9" so he goes in the 3rd round. That's the way these things generally go. If you check a lot of boxes but leave some key ones unchecked you're not an elite prospect. With Bryce though, the physically limitations were always obvious so it gave more time to be able to build that into the equation and come up with reasons for why he'd be able to overcome it. Now we have all these same shortcomings having shone brightly on the NFL field and we STILL have people trying to convince themselves he'll be able to overcome it while ignoring that our past two wins and his improved play have come while riding the back of RB putting up GOAT RB production over the past two weeks. What changed wasn't Bryce. What changed is that Rico is playing out of his damn mind. Pretty much every NFL roster caliber QB can shine if he can get 200+ yards out of the RB behind him. If you can't effectively manage a game while handing off for 200+ yards then you can't cash an NFL check as a QB.

[PNW_PantherMan]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

It's the same thing that made Bryce the #1 overall pick. I've never seen such mass delusion about a football player before. Everyone convinced themselves that the fact that Bryce was below to severely below average in practically every physical attribute for an NFL QB just wouldn't matter because he has everything else you need and that'll more than make up for it. When has such an argument ever been made for an NFL prospect before? We watch prospects plummet every year because they run a couple tenths slower in the 40 time than expected. Smitty had everything you want in a receiver except he was 5'9" so he goes in the 3rd round. That's the way these things generally go. If you check a lot of boxes but leave some key ones unchecked you're not an elite prospect. With Bryce though, the physically limitations were always obvious so it gave more time to be able to build that into the equation and come up with reasons for why he'd be able to overcome it. Now we have all these same shortcomings having shone brightly on the NFL field and we STILL have people trying to convince themselves he'll be able to overcome it while ignoring that our past two wins and his improved play have come while riding the back of RB putting up GOAT RB production over the past two weeks. What changed wasn't Bryce. What changed is that Rico is playing out of his damn mind. Pretty much every NFL roster caliber QB can shine if he can get 200+ yards out of the RB behind him.

I think people are too invested on both sides.  The reality is that the rookie contract is a time window.  That window is running out.  It's possible that Bryce gets his own Flutie Flakes when he's 32 years old, but it's probably not gonna be with the Panthers.

[strato]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

It's the same thing that made Bryce the #1 overall pick. I've never seen such mass delusion about a football player before. Everyone convinced themselves that the fact that Bryce was below to severely below average in practically every physical attribute for an NFL QB just wouldn't matter because he has everything else you need and that'll more than make up for it. When has such an argument ever been made for an NFL prospect before? We watch prospects plummet every year because they run a couple tenths slower in the 40 time than expected. Smitty had everything you want in a receiver except he was 5'9" so he goes in the 3rd round. That's the way these things generally go. If you check a lot of boxes but leave some key ones unchecked you're not an elite prospect. With Bryce though, the physically limitations were always obvious so it gave more time to be able to build that into the equation and come up with reasons for why he'd be able to overcome it. Now we have all these same shortcomings having shone brightly on the NFL field and we STILL have people trying to convince themselves he'll be able to overcome it while ignoring that our past two wins and his improved play have come while riding the back of RB putting up GOAT RB production over the past two weeks. What changed wasn't Bryce. What changed is that Rico is playing out of his damn mind. Pretty much every NFL roster caliber QB can shine if he can get 200+ yards out of the RB behind him.

Why you mad bro we won!