Hey You, You Don't Know Quarterbacking

[thunderraiden]

10 hours ago, fieryprophet said:

What's up gents, the OGs remember me, the guy who single-handedly gave the Panthers the greatest uniform in history moniker. Not too long after that I got involved with Pro Football Focus (pre-Collinsworth acquisition) and ended up taking backseat here to preserve some objectivity. But from a distance I noticed a lot.

After the end of the Cam era this place devolved into the most un-fun, petty, negative cesspool of whining and bitching that has ever graced the internet. The worst part of it all is that the level of discussion turned into the most ill-informed, hot-take, unnuanced crap, rife with people talking out of their posteriors as if they have any clue about what they are watching. Once you get into the professional side of the sport and actual film rooms, you start to understand there's an absurd number of moving parts to pretty much every snap and the details you are privy to are truly only half the picture.

The absolute most important thing I learned from being part of professional level football analysis is that quarterbacking is literally the most intricate and difficult position in all of professional sports, and that the NFL itself is struggling to develop any workable model that allows them to understand what makes one succeed vs what makes one fail. Because of this paradox it has also made the quarterback position itself grossly overvalued from a fan and media standpoint, creating an absurd fixation on the results delivered by a single player who has to rely on the contributions of everyone around them. This also drives the dreaded inflation of QB salaries that inevitably cause even elite teams to lose key talent all to pour cash into the one player supposed to be able to single-handedly elevate the entire team (and defense and special teams and coaching and ownership by some mysterious proxy), yet without those same players even talented teams can wander the wilderness searching for the right guy to take advantage of their talent window.

The discussions the last few years around Bryce has personified this insanity, as this board has devolved into some sort of electronic civil war between the hyperbolic Young supporters and the vitriolic Bryce haters. The reality, like practically everything in this world, is somewhere in the middle. He has traits that can absolutely elevate a team with creativity, play recognition, off-arm angle throws, mental toughness, etc. He's also physically limited, with mostly "good-enough" qualities for most situations that a professional quarterback is asked to do, and will never be an overpowering physical force like pre-injury Cam. But "good-enough" physicality represents a large majority of championship-winning quarterbacks, even in the modern era. There's a reason the corpse of Peyton Manning took the chip from elite physical specimen Cam, because the team surrounding him was talented enough to get him there, while we all know Cam was the driving force of that 2015 team. That's no knock on him, that's just how the game of football tends to work: the more complete team usually wins.

The summary is this: if this team lives or dies solely on the performance of its quarterback, then it is absolutely a paper tiger even if he plays brilliantly week in and out. There are no superheroes in this sport, there are only conduits that proxy the collective efforts of much of the team around them. And no one alive can tell you how the position is played perfectly, it's all a confluence of circumstance and what unique collection of traits each player brings to the position, which can never be truly recreated season after season, even for the same player on the same team.

If this place remains a raging hellscape of idiotic hot takes I will happily remove myself again and do something more productive for yet another decade, but maybe's there hope that we can all get back to the old adage, and keep pounding.

I'm a little late to the party, but thanks for posting this and you're 100% correct. Good luck with all the whiners talking out their ass tho.

[mrcompletely11]

58 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I was one of the biggest "draft Bryce" proponents after we made that ill fated trade up. Believed in all that field reading ability, etc. 

I was wrong. Completely. He was/is basically a project QB with a severely limited ceiling. This far into the project, I am just not seeing the evidence this will end up working out aside from him possibly being an above average #2 QB. 

Certainly, most of us here are not highly experienced ex-college football or NFL players/coaches/scouts/etc. But it really doesn't take THAT trained of an eye to see when a QB keeps failing or flagging when almost every component around them keeps changing. 

The "good enough" moniker is fine for plenty of scenarios in the NFL but you don't trade the farm to get up to #1 overall for "good enough." 

The evidence of this miraculous turnaround seems to still be lacking. If it happens, amazing. Until then, he is basically living on borrowed time and the team should very much consider a pivot in the offseason.

brother, brace yourself for 2026 when the qb room looks exactly the same

[Panthera onca]

45 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Also, has anyone noticed how legitimately insane OP's post actually is?

It's taking credit(tongue in cheek, hopefully?) for some funny event from Huddle past, then explaining that because they now work for PFF they have some sort of super brain knowledge of football that they hadn't before. 

It's actually mostly condescending in a way that lacks a lot of self awareness for.....a PFF stat nerd.

And I say that as a stat nerd myself.

The post was incredibly condescending and the OP came off as a huge Richard.

[ForJimmy]

27 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

There is no more impactful position in all of team sports.  

There isn’t but the thing is the team/system/staff around the QB ultimately dictates how successful that QB can be. You have Baker getting released midseason here vs playing like a MVP on another team. Darnold on the Jets/Panthers vs Vikings/Seahawks. Geno Smith on the Jets vs the Seahawks vs the Raiders. Mac Jones is looking as good as Purdy on the 49ers. You have to build a roster, culture, and system for these guys.  Obviously the QB has to be the leader and help elevate the team, but we are seeing what moving a “bad” QB to a stable franchise looks like. Daniel Jones might be doing the same but it’s too early to tell. 

[Icege]

1 hour ago, mav1234 said:

There are also posters that go into every thread period and bring up Bryce Young somehow in a positive light, regardless of context, quite often to knock other players (sometimes not even on our team). And we had a game day thread where every three posts someone would go "if only Bryce Young had made that tackle" or some crap.

"If only Bryce were <height>", he'd <insert stupid thing here>" was the bit and in direct response to multiple posters ridiculously blaming Bryce (and only Bryce) for the punt returns vs. New England. :3

I understand that folks desire balance, hence the "Bryce stans vs. Bryce haters" narrative but it's abundantly clear that the only people going into threads just to talk about Bryce are the haters. Meanwhile, daring to disagree that Bryce was completely at fault for something that happened on special teams gets the "stan" label.

Shoot, I'm sure folks lump me in as a Bryce stan (Brycen stan? Absolutely. Bryce stan? Nah) just because I have the audacity to look at what the rest of the team is and isn't doing. 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Icege

[mrcompletely11]

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

There isn’t but the thing is the team/system/staff around the QB ultimately dictates how successful that QB can be. You have Baker getting released midseason here vs playing like a MVP on another team. Darnold on the Jets/Panthers vs Vikings/Seahawks. Geno Smith on the Jets vs the Seahawks vs the Raiders. Mac Jones is looking as good as Purdy on the 49ers. You have to build a roster, culture, and system for these guys.  Obviously the QB has to be the leader and help elevate the team, but we are seeing what moving a “bad” QB to a stable franchise looks like. Daniel Jones might be doing the same but it’s too early to tell. 

Rhule and co had baker in a qb battle all through camp, not really giving him the best chance to succeed.  I mean who the fug has qb battles in a nfl training camp?  Dumbass rhule thats who.   

[mav1234]

Just now, Icege said:

"If only Bryce were <height>", he'd <insert stupid thing here>" was the bit and in direct response to multiple posters ridiculously blaming Bryce (and only Bryce) for the punt returns vs. New England. :3

I understand that folks desire balance, hence the "Bryce stans vs. Bryce haters" narrative but it's abundantly clear that the only people going into threads just to talk about Bryce are the haters. Meanwhile, daring to disagree that Bryce was completely at fault for something that happened on special teams gets the "stan" label.

Shoot, I'm sure folks lump me in as a Bryce stan (Brycen stan? Absolutely. Bryce stan? Nah) just because I have the audacity to look at what the rest of the team is and isn't doing. 

 

Dude. I like you and respect your contributions. But you went into a thread to randomly bitch about Stroud in a way to compare to Bryce. 

"Both sides" do it. And sometimes "haters" will say something like "x or y does well in spite of circumstances" and people jump in defending Bryce when his name isn't even used.

Whether or not it is equal in trolling it is very clear both sides are doing it.

[ForJimmy]

1 minute ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Rhule and co had baker in a qb battle all through camp, not really giving him the best chance to succeed.  I mean who the fug has qb battles in a nfl training camp?  Dumbass rhule thats who.   

It’s so frustrating watching him cook now for a division rival. Rhule was the start of our downfall.

[kungfoodude]

12 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

brother, brace yourself for 2026 when the qb room looks exactly the same

I am okay with that to an extent. What I am not gonna be okay with is some big contract extension. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

10 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

There isn’t but the thing is the team/system/staff around the QB ultimately dictates how successful that QB can be. You have Baker getting released midseason here vs playing like a MVP on another team. Darnold on the Jets/Panthers vs Vikings/Seahawks. Geno Smith on the Jets vs the Seahawks vs the Raiders. Mac Jones is looking as good as Purdy on the 49ers. You have to build a roster, culture, and system for these guys.  Obviously the QB has to be the leader and help elevate the team, but we are seeing what moving a “bad” QB to a stable franchise looks like. Daniel Jones might be doing the same but it’s too early to tell. 

The next logical step of this is to not spend money at QB unless you have a star.  Build a great team and don't lock anyone in at QB until you find a dude who's more than just the circumstances of his situation.

[strato]

10 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

Dude. I like you and respect your contributions. But you went into a thread to randomly bitch about Stroud in a way to compare to Bryce. 

"Both sides" do it. And sometimes "haters" will say something like "x or y does well in spite of circumstances" and people jump in defending Bryce when his name isn't even used.

Whether or not it is equal in trolling it is very clear both sides are doing it.

That one there, never did anything. It is always the other guy. 

[WUnderhill]

There’s too many to reply to so I’ll just say a couple more things then I’m out:

1. It hasn’t been both ways and that’s the point. People saying stuff like “too bad Bryce Young didn’t make that tackle” is a direct result of the ridiculousness of blaming Bryce Young for literally everything. I remember one game day thread a poster unironically blamed Bryce Young for JT Sanders flipping onto his own neck and injuring himself. That post was pied. I literally just read a post blaming Bryce Young for XL dropping a ball on a would-be game winning drive last year. This past week, when Tmac bounced a ball off his hands for an interception, Bryce Young was immediately blamed in the game day thread. Alternatively, people who try to give credit to Bryce Young are immediately told that to credit Bryce Young is taking away credit from Rico Dowdle, OL, whoever, and that they shouldn’t be talking positively about Bryce Young because he doesn’t deserve any credit.

2. Yes, there have always been bad posters, the difference is that back then they were largely derided. Bryce Young’s rookie season, when many of us were simply pointing at the train wreck of the whole team and saying it was maybe a little tough to evaluate Bryce Young when he had no time to throw and slow receivers, and just saying basic stuff like “Bryce Young can physically throw the ball further than 20 yards.” There was an attempt made to limit all those opinions to a single thread, by a mod. This is like saying lunatics running the asylum is normal because there have always been lunatics in the asylum. The difference is before they were patients, now they’re in charge.

3. I know for a fact I am labeled as one of the “Bryce Stans” by many of the usual suspects, but the fact of the matter is they have no idea what my position is on Bryce Young because any attempts at nuanced discussion in the past have been so completely pointless due to never being able to get past the hyperbole. How can we have a serious conversation if you insist he is physically incapable of throwing a football 20 yards? Or if you insist that he somehow duped the Panthers into drafting him just by drinking water? Or if you insist that he should be able to succeed behind one of the worst offensive lines I’ve ever seen (rookie year, not now). And I’m not the only one, there are many who have left the huddle because of it and started a discord server, I’m just too lazy for another app.

[mrcompletely11]

15 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

It’s so frustrating watching him cook now for a division rival. Rhule was the start of our downfall.

You mean tepper but yeah I agree about rhule

 

Baker is a top 3 potential qb that is play for mvp and he is doing it with a slew of injuries

[strato]

5 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

The next logical step of this is to not spend money at QB unless you have a star.  Build a great team and don't lock anyone in at QB until you find a dude who's more than just the circumstances of his situation.

If Canales comes back and Bryce doesn’t I would probably prefer to bring in 3 guys he likes from around the league or maybe outside a top ten pick and work through them, give that a shot. Because if we win a few more games we won’t be in the running for the top rated QB prospects anyway.