magnus

40 time isn't crucial, and this won't be popular, but I care about a prospect a ton more than I care whether he went to a school you like. 

so that's a "no" to quantifying that.  

Do you at least have numbers on his drops then?   Anybody have PFF handy?

Still not happy with OT.  Competition could bear that out, but that's a pair of positions where you're on the field every down and have to be good at every single thing, every single down.   Right now this #2 receiver thing boils down to combining the players who do things well into one player, with realistic impact coming in fewer snaps.

 

Definitely still plenty of room to upgrade WR, too. Could use a back. 

Just here at the end.  Probably better to keep my mouth shut.

is there some sort of quantifiable way of saying "He wasn't getting open consistently enough to be considered anything but a 4th wr at best"?  That seems like a fine argument, except there's nothing backing it whatsoever.  What level of "getting open" has this mythical #2 on it, and what has a #4?  

 

I do agree Olsen shouldn't be blocking.  

Take it back !!  ..........accusing me of being a tech fan.

 

Actually I'm a Radford fan..........have a friend who's son pitches for them.

 

as far as CJ goes.......I'm ok with extenision as long as it is very team friendly.

 

Don't need a 33-34 yr. old albatross around our necks ever again.

CJ is 28.  I know you're not saying he's 31, but to reiterate he's 28.  He still has a lot of prime play left. 

we disagree and that's OK.  It'd be great if a player showed up that can stretch it deep, but also be sure-handed, a great blocker, and be able to settle into underneath routes.   For right now, they split that amount of roles across a few guys.  I'm just stating that's a valid concept.   As is ball control.  Team's winning with both.

 

So the flea flicker plays and go routes they called this season for Cotchery slow ass didn't happen? ?

 

They happened.  Does that negate what I said?  No.  Of course, a WR's role isn't only to run the 9 route and speed isn't the only way to get open.

It is easy for a lot of fans to point at certain players to explain deficiencies with their particular team. It use to be LaFell, now it's Cotchery.

Here are the yardage totals for the third leading receiving options for the 6 NFC playoff teams according to espn.com.

580 - Cotchery

621

446

322

367

696

I'm not saying we shouldn't look for upgrades. I will take an upgrade at any position, but these numbers might illustrate what Magnus is referring to as opportunity cost.

this exactly. 

And, since that's the third WR it's worth noting the 4th guy rarely provides any real receiving value unless something catastrophic happens.  

The using of Cotchery as a slot guy thing is a stretch. But let's say that I agree with you for argument's sake, have you considered that the only reason that we have not opened up the offense is because we don't have another legitimate threat at WR that will take it to the house on any given play?

 

Furthermore, I don't see how you can say with any surety that the next receiver that we more than likely draft, pick up or whatever will only be the third best receiver.  You don't know that.

 

Lastly, Olsen is not a receiver. The most effective way to use him is when there is another legitimate threat on the field, as that receiver can draw attention away from Olsen (and possibly even KB), and allow him to put in work underneath. 

 

There is a massive whole, and there has been a massive hole since Moose left for Chicago.

Olsen was split out (wide or slot) 50% of the time in '13.  I don't remember what he was for '14.   He's not a WR, but he's quite possibly the best player catching the football Carolina has.  A 1000 yard TE isn't some third or fourth option on a team like this.  I don't think we're going to agree that the WR's role is always to work deep and Olsen's is to always work short (or even half the time).

 

And yes, I'm saying the O isn't going to open up.   Rivera said, 10 catches from WR (2014 provided 11, for what it's worth).   He's going to play ball control, he's going to play defense.   Has done it since mid-2012 (so this is not a Shula "issue" in my mind) when the D started playing well. 

 

Now, I don't know that this mythical WR Carolina would pick up would only be the third best WR.  I have no crystal ball.  But, Olsen and Benjamin are tremendous.   Any third player in there doesn't have to be exceptional.  Any third player in there has to do everything Cotchery does, and most likely do it better than he does.   On that, absolutely I'm counting Olsen.  That's a thing that this "oh look we're going to leave the #2 job open because no one is worthy" BS from the OP neglects.  

They're using Cotchery as if he were a slot player, for the most part.  They're not doing this spread out, outside to inside symmetrical thing like most teams using a slot.   This 1x3 or 2x2 bunch formation stuff they're using so often is able to produce a lot with players like this.   Cotchery wasn't holding this team back and I don't really believe he's being misused.  

 

They can get better and have one magical player you guys can call #2.  That's fine.  Whoever that player is, will be the third best receiver, and will still be in a run-first offense.   In the end, the opportunity cost for that player is almost tough to justify.   I don't find it to be this massive hole so many of you do.   

I don't believe in the concept that there's some Madden-like #1, #2 tag on these people.  Or that the #2 role is somehow vacant because people don't like the player(s) in that role currently.  These things don't seem to understand this offense. 

 

Cotchery is not a sexy starter.  Fans have made it petulantly clear that he's not their guy, and that they want better - both are acceptable, but consider this - when there are two WR on the field, he's a guy to have on the field.  If the Panthers have Olsen tight instead of split, you have to be a good blocker.  You have to be able to run a good, efficient route and always catch the ball.  Because it's more likely an equal shot at running or passing on those downs. 

 

And anyone who's watched this team the last two years knows - the X receiver (Smith giving way to Benjamin) is probably isolated.   Olsen's always to the other side.  The rest of that other side is made up of roleplayers, not guys with numbers.  There's usually a good shorter receiver and a good speed guy, one to clear out and one to stretch the offense horizontally.  

 

It would be great if Carolina had one other great receiver.  No one's turning that down.   But, with two really fantastic players in the passing game and an offense that will run the ball in the top 10 in attempts no matter what, using the rest as roleplayers isn't some huge flaw.   This isn't 2008's unimaginative ground and pound, Smith on one side and Muhammad on the right and no one cares who the TE is.  This isn't that. 

 

At this point, the numbers that really matter?  Who contributes to the third phase.  Ginn is the PR, and as of right now, Cotchery and Benjamin probably start.  That leaves one jersey on gameday for a receiver, most likely.  I just don't see how people anticipate more than one receiver being added unless something tremendously drastic happens.

I know people are dying for Shiny New Toy and justifying that, but here's the thing.  

Since Ginn returns punts, and both Brockel (a core special teamer) and McNeill (a tremendous blocker and good special teamer) are back, they probably keep 4 guys in jerseys at WR, not 5.  They have four guys who deserve a jersey already, and that's without any camp surprises. 

 

it would be fun for the longterm discussion if a WR was BPA, and Gettleman likes the TD-Catchers, he said so when he first came.  But he's not going to pick a random doofus because people don't like what Jerricho Cotchery brings, or because they want to take an unskilled eye and assign him a Madden number.   That's not how it works.   They're interested in a player that makes them better, and so are many here.  They just aren't willing to throw out a grizzled vet who brings you converted third downs because you don't like him. 

Have you guys argued him into being able to return punts yet?  If not it doesn't matter what he ran six years ago. 

 

And no, "white fast" is not a good argument.  Jesus. 

Also, aren't players that are released before free agency eligible to sign with a new team immediately? So we can start negotiating with him now, right?

yes, but this is where people want to get themselves heartbroken.  Just because a guy is available right now, or just because the team has two dollars to rub together right now, doesn't mean they're going to sign guys right now or day 1 of UFA.  

They're still going to wait out some guys looking for the big payday and grab players after that. 

Firing guys on the defensive side would have been particularly cold coming from Tomsula.

But I agree the most likely reason was to show they didn't need Harbaugh or any of his people.

Making coaching and roster moves out of spite is a real solid strategy

the worst of it is, they weren't required to say anything.  Just tell people they can look while you sort your search out. 

 

 

BTW - http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2015/02/15/49ers-notes/

 

(pretty clear who's pulling the strings)

 

There have been multiple, persistent reports, mostly from people close to Gase, that Gase was all but offered the 49ers job during that face-to-face with Baalke, except for a few details.

So how did this all blow up?

According to an NFL source, Gase and Baalke did indeed come very close to an agreement for Gase to replace Harbaugh, down to the details of his prospective coaching staff, and Gase understood that his choices for the coordinator spots were approved.

Tomsula’s name was not involved in the discussions with Gase about the defensive coordinator slot, I was told.

Then, the next morning, after Baalke flew back to the Bay Area, things changed: Gase, the source says, was informed that he could only have the job if he made Tomsula his defensive coordinator.

No Tomsula, no offer.

Gase turned that suggestion down flat, and that’s when the 49ers immediately tabbed Tomsula as the head coach to follow Harbaugh.

So when Tomsula tried hard to hire Gase as his offensive coordinator, the answer was no way–and Gase went to Chicago as the offensive coordinator.

 

 

 

I'd love to know where the order to dump everybody but Rathman came from.

 

You'd assume it came from the team.  Would make Tomsula look like an a--hole if it were from him.

 

(could be argued it makes him look like an a--hole anyway)

 

They definitely let go of some decent coaches, Fangio and Brad Seely in particular.

Right, It did seem like it came from the team.  If Tomsula didn't want Fangio/Donatell and/or Roman, then fair enough and they could've sold him on the idea of it being "his team" and no one should question that.   

 

But, for Tomsula to want that, he'd have to have had an alternate plan.  Most prospective coaches have that, retread or green.  So for Tomsula to have hired coaches from his staff for coordinators after the releases said all assistants could look elsewhere?  That's not a vision, plan, anything.   That's not Tomsula saying he can do it without Harbaugh's people, that's the front office saying "it's not coaching that made this team great, it's the talent." 

 

I think they're going to be mistaken, because Tomsula is well below average in my opinion. 

I actually think Geep (pronounced 'Jeep') Chryst is a good choice for OC.

 

That said, I still think the Niners will suck this year (and probably for a while).

I like Geep and think he's a good solid quality coach to follow Roman in that same offense.  I think they'll be somewhat successful running the ball heavily and that includes the QB, but they're gonna Dan Henning the F out of Kaepernick and shorten his career 

 

But, there's nothing bring that staff together.  It's a cheap staff overall, no one's really that good at the things Harbaugh was great at. 

 

The concept that the 9ers want to blow themselves up, awesome, do it, if it's Harbaugh you think's the problem, be my guest.  Get rid of an NFC contender.   But for them to let so many walk - and have to promote from within, essentially against their own will - wow.   I've probably said 80% of this before so, sorry about that, but they say it's cheapness. 

 

It would've made sense to keep Roman, Fangio, etc if Tomsula's your guy.  That's the play.  Show Harbaugh that it was him, since they think it was him, and push the continuity.   Instead they picked up what was left out of their own yardsale, and brought it back in the house instead of taking it to goodwill. 

Seattles DE Cliff Avril is doubtful today... Didn't know if we were tracking that... But if he's out I'm starting DeAngelo in Fantasy

that's big for Carolina.  The Hawks are already down two rush ends and as good as Michael Bennett is, he's a left end.  So they might have to push Bennett right, and he's still potent as a rusher, but then Red Bryant might have to play some passing downs - and he's not built to rush the passer at all.

I did a quick matchup-based rundown with a little strategy involved, if anyone is interested: 

 

http://bit.ly/1esvw0V