stan786

2 minutes ago, Gerry Green said:

 

Except the ONLY flaw folks find in CJ is that he isn't the greatest under pressure. But he is an assassin in the pocket. 

 

Whereas Bryce can't play from the pocket, and runs around until he finds a lane. 

 

I'll take the guy that can carve you up from the pocket. Oh, and maybe last 10 years longer.

Bryce can’t play from the pocket? Have you watched 0 film on Bryce? Because that’s a loony tunes take.

2 minutes ago, Gerry Green said:

So what I'm hearing is; CJ gets the ball out because of scheme and talent.

 

Bryce doesn't get the ball out because of a lack of scheme and talent.

 

Seems legit.

Bryce had to improvise more because of talent In 2022, which he was just as successful with.

In 2021 he got the ball out plenty fast because he had talent giving him time and receivers that got open.

CJ Stroud was in a very friendly QB scheme with lot of talent and was able to get the ball out fast, CJ has demonstrated when that wasn’t possible he got statistically worse and didn’t have the same success.

The difference here is Bryce was successful when he had to improvise where as CJ was demonstratively less successful.

I'll never understand how Stroud got elevated to a bullet proof prospect by so many on this board. He's got plenty of issues that are a risk to take, I understand liking him more but acting like he isnt a flawed prospect is just so confusing.

All the QBs have flaws, its more of a pick your poison type draft.

Just now, Gerry Green said:

 

So what you're saying is; Without a top line and gret WR Bryce isn't the same QB? Funny how that works.

Stroud had an average time to throw of 3.39 seconds in his grail game against Georgia are you gonna hold that against him?

Sometimes when your online and receivers arent having great days you have to create a little on your own. Also its not like Bryce had a bad season last year, so i'm not even sure what your comment is getting at. He held the ball a little longer and bought more time and was about as successful as he was the previous year.

Whats funny is when Bryce did have a classic Bama level online and Receivers in 2021, which were on par imo with what Ohio State had this year, his average time to throw was lower than Stroud's was in 2022.

We honestly could have taken Levis and I would have convinced myself we've had a great Offseason and this staff is going to get the best out of him.

It's the first time in years I've had a glimpse of optimism or confidence in what is going on in Carolina and I'm going to enjoy it for all its worth. I do prefer Bryce personally but whatever guy we went with I'd have been open minded with just because I trust the guys we have developing our QB.

I cant imagine being this upset over getting a guy so many places have ranked both their #1 QB and a Top 3 prospect. Cant wait for this weekend.

Just now, CPF4LIFE said:

Breaking: team expects high performance out of QB who has NEVER been drafted this high at such a small frame, who is also not the best athlete, not the best arm talent, who may be overwhelmed by the physicality of pro athletes. 

You left all that out, but dont worry i reminded you.

Or we can take a guy thats known to fold under pressure. Or one that sucked last year but had nice 21 tape, or the other one that completed 55% of his passes this year.

Acting like one guys flaws are the only one that matters is bizarre.

And if Young does prove to be a lot better than Stroud i'm sure these vengeful fans waiting to trash the Panthers and let them have it will be lining up to say they were wrong.

Panthers hitting on this pick is important regardless of who the fans want. If we took Stroud,Young, Richardson, Levis, or even Hooker and they sucked the end result is mad fans and a disaster of a situation.

1 minute ago, CPF4LIFE said:

Fact still remains, he better prove to be way better than stroud or its gonna get ugly really fast. Stroud cannot show to adjust to the league faster than him or a lot of bullshit narratives are gonna go out the window. Thats just the truth. 

Like this wouldn't be the case with whatever QB we drafted.

16 minutes ago, Sean Payton's Vicodin said:

Here is his Panthers picks

1. Bryce Young

39. Cedric Tillman, WR

93. Nick Herbig, ILB

114. Dylan Hortan DE

132. Garret Wiliams, DE

145. Jimmie Robinson, S

 

Id be a little bummed if we passed on McDonald who went one pick after us in this mock for Tillman, but he did try and hammer the defense late.

8 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I would too--but you had to say, "I would assume..."  and in that statement lies the potential for calculated error.  Does the evidence support our feelings about Bryce getting hit by a 300 lb linemen, making him more prone to injury than if it were Cam Newton back there? 

I am rather surprised by what I am finding--as a researcher, I have learned to go with the evidence and let it take you against the current of "common sense" and assumption.  I have been proven wrong by research so many times it is laughable.   People are now (kindly) attacking the messenger in my case, as I try to show them what the research says--they refuse to go there because they don't believe it.  It makes no sense to them--or me, but I have learned to trust data and not your eyes or brain--two inconsistent organs.

This is what makes me laugh as well. I've had so many assumptions blown up over my career that I tend to need to find data to back stuff up, and I cant find anything that remotely says what the common assumption is.

Its totally fair to say he's smaller than the data has information from, but that doesnt really discount the curves at other positions at his weight, nor does it really discount the trends you see at the QB position.

No one knows, there is data that shows it may be very much overblown on this board but we wont know till he plays, devaluing a player over assumptions is how you pick the wrong player though.

2 minutes ago, Varking said:

He’s the best QB but he’s not the best prospect. Carter is a better prospect. Robinson is a better prospect. I’d argue Anderson is a better prospect than Young. 

Yeah I think I’d have those 3 ahead of him I go back and forth with Anderson. Carter is such a good prospect he’ll still go top 10 with as bad of an offseason as he has had which is impressive.

I just hope the people who’ve been adamant they’ll be happy with any QB can actually be happy with Bryce.

Got a lot of fun ahead of us, time to start buying in if you haven’t gotten there yet.

Fitts been drooling over Bryce since before the combine, he’s always had the final say. If you need to blame anyone for converting Reich blame him.

Just now, mrcompletely11 said:

when the owner travels with you to pro days and the owners wife is giving hugs to prospect it may influence things a tad dontyathink? 

12 minutes ago, Lurk21 said:

And I'd be totally  for it if they feel that and proceed  forward. I'm not going to sit and scream that we picked him but I could make an argument  that the other Qbs could do something  that Bryce couldn't. Regardless, if we pick him, I'm going to root him on but I know anything is possible  until we officially  confirm it. 

100% and I don’t have a problem with people liking other QBs more, I just think a lot are writing Bryce off prematurely.

I guess I feel like Strouds struggles handling pressure and working off script, Levis’s pressure/accuracy issues, and Richardsons accuracy could eventually limit an offense just as much if not more than Youngs size. The offense we are rumored to be building looks to be heavily RPO and empty sets both of which Bryce excels at. Eagles and Chiefs were in shotgun a ton last year

All these guys have flaws that can dictate what you can and can’t call, the difference is Bryce will be able to move you in and out of plays, read the defense, and help us maximize his strengths.

Every QB has a system that maximizes their Strengths and it’s up to the coaches to get it out of them. Our coaches clearly seem to think the talent and what he brings compared to the others outweighs any offensive limitations.

2 minutes ago, Martin said:

From what I understand there are 9 separate scores for different areas, I think we’ve only seen one score

I think there’s like a summary score but it doesn’t tell you the individual components. The S2 guy said a 90% could have a 10% in one area and that’s what’s important the individual components.

Me as well.

4 hours ago, rippadonn said:

There are more but I don't have all day to educate you...

 

This is an incredible video for this argument. I'm dying.

2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Personally, I don't talk about those actual QB things with the two of them because I think they're basically even level prospects with each better or worse than the other in different aspects of their game, but in the end, I think it evens out.

What good is an endless discussion of... "Well Young is better at X, Y, and Z, while Stroud is better a A, B, and C and after weighing all those factors, I think they're even level prospects"

Because then the question becomes, "well how do you separate them to pick one over the other?"

And the answer to that, for me, is Young's small frame.

It's not the only factor and it's not the first factor, it's the final piece of the equation, you have to look at all the other football stuff first, which I've done, and I like them equally from that standpoint.

 

I think that is totally fair, others think Bryce is better and that outweighs the concerns in their mind, some think Stroud is better straight up and I think thats fair. We are all just fans on a message board.

Its the definitive statements on injury risk and acting like there is no chance that Bryce is able to stay healthy long term is where most the push back comes.

5 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Which is the crux of it all, people in the Young camp say people like myself, are basing the decision solely on his size, it's not, it's just a factor in it all, and in the end, yes, it is the deciding factor.

But that's only because when you look at everything other than size, Stroud is right there as an equal level prospect (and before you go and bash that, there are PLENTY of NFL experts/analysts/execs/coaches/etc who say that, many who even say he's just the better prospect in general).

When they're so close as prospects, size aside, once you then factor that into the equation at the end of the process, that's where it because the easy call for me to say Stroud should be the pick instead of Young.

As I've said numerous times, if it was Young vs Levis or AR, then while the size is still part of the equation and it's factored in, it's not the deciding factor because he's that much of a better prospect in other areas that it far outweighs the size factor.

I think that is very much lost in this argument by the Young supporters, they think those in the Stroud camp think we're wanting to take the "worse QB" which couldn't be further from the truth.  We think they're even level prospects and we're taking the guy we think has the higher likelihood of having a long successful career.

Those in the Young camp just want to disregard size due to it being an "unknown factor and anyone can get hurt at anytime."  

Which while yes, it's true, anyone can get hurt at anytime, doesn't make disregarding his size (in the way they do) a legitimate way to look at this draft pick.

I can respect people saying they prefer Stroud because of actual QB things. I personally have a large enough gap between Young and Stroud sans size that the size doesn't factor into the equation, but we are all just guys on a message board.

The problem on this board is I dont think fans argue enough about actual qualities that they feel push these guys over and just default on the tired size argument and talk about it like its a foregone conclusion. Some Stroud guys have 100% have given some great arguments on why they prefer Stroud but things on message boards just tend to simmer to the most basic arguments. There have also been a number that will say Young is a better QB but hes going to get hurt in the pros which is something I just cant get behind personally.

End of the day anyone talking in guarantees is wrong in my eyes, and I think a lot of the Young side are tired of the common automatic "hes to small we would be idiotic to draft him" takes and get a little more vigilant when discussing things.

He could get hurt in the NFL, I would argue there is nothing in the data or his past that makes it a Very Likely or anything, its just an assumption that may or may not play out.

20 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

It's quite interesting that everyone here who wants Young just disregards his size as an issue and points to weird random data points as to why "smaller QB's aren't more likely to get injured"

Despite every NFL expert and analyst openly talking about how his size and possible durability issues are 100% factors in the decision, but in their minds, his football skillset makes it worth that risk.  And that's just those that still say Young should be the #1 pick, there are plenty out there that think it should be Stroud.

That's NOT the argument most Young supporters here make, they say the size factor is irrelevant based on any number of factors, whether it be NFL rules, past data about smaller QB's (even though they're all still bigger than Young), or whatever they want to point to.

That to me is very telling in how most Young supporters here talk about him, I'd have less of an issue if they'd say it concerned them but they think he's good enough that it's worth the risk.  Yes, some argue that, but not most, most just dismiss his size as a non-factor.

I'm gonna side with the "experts" on that one, very few, if any, have said that his size are a completely non-factor in the way so many on here talk about him. 

Injury risk is a concern, the argument is more there is no way to know either way for certain if he's going to get hurt more or not because of his size. There is limited data out there than generally trends toward lighter players get hurt less but nothing concrete. Bryce is small so he'll be a new data point for this. He wasn't exceptionally injury prone in college like some of the bigger guys were, he did take a big hits from NFL level people throughout his career and those scouts will mention that.

He is not guaranteed to get hurt at a higher rate than other players, no one knows at the level he's going to get hurt at and saying you do is the issue. Discounting him because he cant play 17 games and is going to get hurt and wont be able to hold up in the NFL is what people are arguing with. The certainty you are arguing this with with zero data to back it up is why you are getting more push back than you think you should.

We can agree together that his size should be a data point in the calculation, but taking a QB we like worse just because we assume something with nothing actually demonstrating the assumption then yes people will take the stance that is short sighted and incorrect.

Does Richardson and Levis getting hurt in the SEC a bunch ding them more since it wasn't the NFL, or does their weight make it ok?