MasterAwesome

17 minutes ago, CPF4LIFE said:

I keep saying it, i would love to put somebody just as violent next to him but we keep settling for mediocre. 

We did at least try to sign Milton Williams who would've been a big dollar FA signing to put next to Brown.  Wharton had a pretty underwhelming year to say the least, but he dealt with multiple injuries so maybe we can get him back healthy enough to contribute next season.  He's been inactive since the Bye week but we might actually get him back for Saturday.  Would be a nice time for him to step up lol.

35 minutes ago, TN05 said:

I've never seen a guy here try so hard to glaze a rival QB.

It's cute how shy he is about his fandom.  Started his own thread glazing him where he went on for 21 pages with "THIS KID CAN PLAY".  Now all of a sudden Shough is "comparable to Young" lol I guess he thinks Young can play?  Quite the bold take and unexpected plot twist!

"Well I could talk about Sam Darnold or Drake Maye instead!" - yeah you could have, but nope....of all the QBs to fawn over, he got a bad case of that Shough fever 

25 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

I'd edited to be more clear where he was ahead of league average, but realize it was easily missed, sorry.  I do hope he falls off a cliff production wise because if he actually continues at this pace it's highly likely the TDs come and then he'll be a real problem.

Anyway, to the stats... Shough is substantially better than the average in completion percentage, YPG, and INT% (68% vs 64.4% and 237 vs 215 and 1.7 vs 2.2). He is pretty close to the average in Y/A (7.14 vs 7.1) and rating (91.63 vs 91.8). He is a bit below the average in TDs per game (1.3 vs ~1.5, which is hard to average exactly due to the number of players that are part of this stat), QBR (51.54 vs 54.7) and quite a bit below in TD% (3% vs 4.7%). In advanced stats, he's above the league average in intended air yards/attempt (8.1 v 7.7) and on target % (76.8 vs 74.6), while barely below is in bad throw % (16.1 vs 16.0). This jives with what I've seen - decent young player, playing at a level that looks like a veteran starter, on a bad team.

I've always said (and this is true of Bryce too, I even mentioned it this year) that I am less concerned with 30+ yard bombs than consistency at 15+ yards, because you need to be able to threaten past the sticks. Shough is doing that. Vs us in week 15 he had ~one third of his passes 15ish or more yards and he was money on them, and that wasn't really an exception, he has had some nice throws outside of that. 

All that said, dude is just super new to the league, and once film gets out, if he does have limitations they will be exploited. No way he can get OROTY.

And thanks for the kind words - I am prone to hyperbole at times, but I'm also just impressed by Shough. We'll see if he can keep it up (I hope not, unless the Saints randomly trade him lol)

Well even if we took diverging paths getting there...our overall assessment of Shough is the same (bolded) lol so I guess that's what matters.  What you call "playing at a level that looks like a veteran starter" is the same thing I'm referencing when I talk about his poise.  Although I still wonder how truly "bad" of a team the Saints are.  Their defense is middle-of-the-road, and their offense does have some good pieces (Olave, Juwan Johnson) outside of running back which is the position most everyone agrees is relatively plug-and-play.  I'm not going to pretend to know anything about the majority of NFL team's o-lines lol but I'm assuming Saints are not great there, although Shough's pressure % seems to have been quite low (and steadily improving) over the last four weeks (20 -> 16.7 -> 15.0 -> 13.0) so maybe they've been playing better as of late, or perhaps Shough himself deserves credit for that.  

Some of the language I'm hearing about Shough, including talking about how he's way above league average in several categories, makes it sound like Shough is having a rookie season on par with like a CJ Stroud who established himself as basically a Top 5-10 QB his rookie season.  Maybe that's on me though, I don't mean to attribute anything to you that I'm sure you don't agree with.

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

It's only made up in your mind because you choose not to read words.  As starters in 2025. 

Comp % - Shough

Pass yards per game - Shough

Rush yards per game - Shough

QB rating - Shough 

Yards per attempt - Shough

TDs per game - Young

Turnovers per game - Young

Bryce is a #1 overall pick, year 3 starter.  Shough is a 2nd round rookie nobody on a worse team.  That my friend, is a red flag of a team doing it wrong.  That team is us.  

and we shouldn't be talking Shough in terms of making BY look bad.  We should be talking about the Carolina kid Drake "Drake Maye" Maye making us look really bad. 

 

Please don't tell me you just averaged the QB ratings of all of Shough's starts to declare his QB rating as better  I hope you don't actually believe that's how it works.  Otherwise please show your math on Shough's QB rating as a starter.

Thanks for including Shough's 2.6 more Rushing YPG in this comparison, really doesn't feel at all like you're desperately grasping for as many straws as you can here.

The truth is, it takes a statistical bottom-tier starting QB like Bryce Young to make Shough look simply OK by comparison.  And that bottom-tier starting QB still, by your own admission, puts up more points for his offense than Shough.  You're framing this as damning for Bryce, but in reality the fact that him and Bryce are so neck-and-neck is shining Shough in a very poor light.

Yes Shough is a rookie and Young is a 3rd year starter, which is why I circle back to my position of Shough having a "pretty solid, encouraging rookie season" whereas you're fanboying over him.  Never mind that Shough is 2 years older than Bryce though.  Normally yes a QB's experience in the league is invaluable...but Bryce is kind of a unique situation considering the biggest complaint with him is he is too physically limited to succeed in the league.  Do we think a QB can overcome severe physical limitations simply with experience?  Also I remember wayyyy back (/s) when we cared so much about DJ Johnson being an older rookie and our standard for them being that they're more NFL-ready and able to contribute sooner rather than later.  But now all of a sudden Shough is just a poor little 26-year-old rookie on an awful team. 

Seriously...the way you frame everything around Shough is straight out of a fanfic.  Constantly referencing with tears in your eyes how he's succeeding against all odds on such an awful team.  Meanwhile the Saints' D is 14th in PPG and their offense (led by Shough) is 29th in PPG.  Telling me how the Saints managed a win on Shough's shoulders against the Jets last week who put up...*checks notes*...6 points against the Saints' D.  Yes god bless the savior Shough who willed his team to victory against those juggernauts led by Brady Cook.  Never mind how Taysom Hill threw as many touchdowns in 1 passing attempt as Shough did in 49 passing attempts.  Yikes.

17 minutes ago, CRA said:

I give zero shits about Tyler Shough.  I do think it is relevant to see where in our own division a random 2nd rounder on a worse team.....is presently outplaying our #1 overall pick in his 3rd season.  And of course, if you are talking about rookie play....yeah, Shough deserves some props.  Which is why I also keep bringing up Fannin Jr.  They deserve some mentions given they have virtually a zero % chance to win because they came out of nowhere vs favorites/media darlings at their spots and are late to the party. 

and outside of what you are trying to do here....I think most know my Shough posting is really Bryce Young posting.   It's getting the to Bryce issue via another channel. 

 

Lol you're telling me you need to explore more creative indirect avenues to express your dissatisfaction with Bryce?  Yes, surely it is impossible to talk about how poor Bryce has been playing without glazing Tyler Shough in parallel.  Sure thing...just be proud and wear your Shough #1 Fanboy badge with honor 

9 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

It isn't really fair to include his numbers when he was a backup when trying to look at his performance.  His Y/A is at 7.1 in starts which is right on the league average. He is low in TD%, but he's also getting rushing TDs, and using his legs a decent amount - 1.3 total TDs per game isn't bad (Bryce and Mayfield are both at 1.6). His YPG in starts puts him at 10th in the league (he's actually 40+ yards above Bryce there, his YPG in stats is 237 vs 192).

That said, I'm not "sold" on him. He looks better than a ton of QBs for his team and fact he's a rookie but way too early to say much.

Ok fair to judge only his starts.  But you do acknowledge that going from "he's waaaay above league average in a number of categories" to "here's a single stat where he's above league average (not "waaaay") and another where he is exactly at the league average" is a pretty significant backpedal, no?  I'm guessing he's probably in the ~10th range for completion percentage too if we're only looking at starts (I'm too lazy to isolate his starts and do the calculations), so I'll grant you that one too.  But I don't think completion percentage is all that meaningful as a standalone stat if it isn't bolstered by good TD%, Y/A, etc.

On that note, for how much people like posting Passing Charts in here (*cough* CRA) - if you peep Shough's passing charts, he hasn't completed a single 20+ yard pass in the past 3 games combined.  His last one was in Week 13 against the Dolphins, which was a single pass of 24 yards.  I just want to be consistent in how we apply our standards - I think it's always been warranted to criticize Bryce for it (even dating back to his rookie season), but do we suddenly not care about that with Shough?

And yeah I did acknowledge that Saints' fans have reason to be excited about him and complimented his poise, which is giving my props.  Still not sure I agree that he looks better than a "ton" of QBs nor do I think you or anyone have really demonstrated that.  I think you are generally one of the more reasonable level-headed posters which is why I'm confused at what I consider to be rather hyperbolic language about Shough.

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

it still gets really weird when folks want to not isolate numbers for backups that enter a games and log 0 pass yards.  It distorts all of their stats if you compare them to actual starters. 

Shough is 4-3 as a starter on a very bad team.  In this starts he is:

68% for 237 passing yards and 19 rush per game. 9 TDs.  6 TOs. 

That's dang good play for a 2nd round pick thrust into the role midseason on a bad team.  It flat out is what it is.  

Should flat out deserves some props.  If folks here can't do that, it's just Saints hatred or Bryce insecurity preventing football talk

ALL THAT SAID, he is too late to the convo.  It's a 2 man race.   Last 2 games likely decide between the WRs. 

 

 

Oh boy how the tables have turned...the passion and extent at which you defend Shough would make even the staunchest Bryce fanboys blush.  The bold part is especially straight from their playbook.  Even if someone here were to withhold giving Shough props, it's pretty understandable as a Panthers fan.  What's quite odd is becoming the biggest stan of our most hated rival's starting QB.  I don't think even Saints fans drool over him this hard.

For the record I think this talk about "stans" and "fanboys" is cringe AF and I'm admittedly being rather hyperbolic because this is exactly the kind of discourse and language you personally love to engage in and it's fun to play in the mud from time to time.  There is absolutely no world where you do not meet your own criteria of a "Super Stan" for Shough with how loosely you apply that label to people for Bryce in here.  You're like the Final Boss of Super Stans.

2 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

This is a very weird take. The reason Shough doesn't deserve it is because he's only started 7 games. He's doing crazy well for a rookie and out playing plenty of vets with a worse roster. He's waaay above league average in a number of categories during his starts and he passes the eye test in game by making plays. Meanwhile Bryce Young had one of the worst rookie seasons of all time.

Still TMac deserves it more. It's only been 7 games for Shough so he doesn't deserve any awards. Even if he gets to 9 he doesn't.

Exactly which categories?  I posted his stats above.

He's probably shown enough to warrant excitement from Saints fans.  He does seem pretty poised from what I've seen, which granted is only the two games against us which incidentally were his two best games of the season lol.  But yeah...his performance is so overblown.

14th in Completion %

22nd in YPG (7 YPG more than Bryce, for how underwhelmed we've been with Bryce's passing stats)

24th in Y/A

26th in QB rating

32nd (tied for last) in TD%

Those last three are pretty important indicators of a QB's efficiency for his offense.  You might see a stat line like 308 passing yards & 1 TD, and think "not too shabby".  Until you see it took him 49 pass attempts to accomplish that (this was last week against a depleted Jets' D).  Or 43 attempts against the Falcons to put up 243 yards, 0 TDs, and 3 offensive points.

5 hours ago, CRA said:

I would assume it’s a pretty simplistic math  formula.  Fans don’t want to watch detailed videos of their QB shitting the bed.  So if dudes have good games, he goes to the  good.  The entire point is to get people to watch. 
 

Yeah I mean there's a reason there are "Highlight" compilation videos all over YouTube and not "Lowlight" videos.  Although one team's highlights often come at the expense of another team's lowlights.  But that's just secondary to the actual intent.

15 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

I am sure its out there, thats just not my bag.  Without knowing the play call, audible, etc seems like a pointless exercise to try to point out the good or bad of a play/game

3 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

I am smart enough to know what I am seeing in real time and dont need to be spoon feed after the fact

Is this not a bit contradictory?  Also surely if any of us are smart enough to evaluate what we're seeing in real time, a former NFL QB can at least manage the same.  Especially considering he's basing his analysis on hours (maybe generous?) of reviewing All-22 footage which he can play back over and over again, focusing each time on different position groups, match-ups, progressions, etc. which is simply impossible for a fan to fully assess in real time.  Unless you're actually at the game, we basically only get the QB/O-line in frame during the broadcast and even in that limited window of the field, there is simply too much happening.  I'm usually broadly focusing on Bryce, maybe peeping the footwork (or lack thereof) and just the overall pocket and whether there is any pressure coming.  I'm not able to watch every individual one-on-one o-line match-up on top of it to see who got beat, who didn't pick up a blitz, which o-lineman didn't shift to help double-team, or whatever else.

I think the truth is somewhere in between (as is almost always the case).  Knowing the play call, audible, etc. is pretty important when judging individual performances, which is why we should always take PFF grades with a grain of salt.  But yeah we can also get a pretty good overall sense of how a player is performing just from watching the game on the couch on Sundays.  I still think there's a lot of value in a review video like this.  As long as you have the bare minimum media literacy to take the interesting insights while also acknowledging inherent biases from a video like this (i.e. obviously focusing on the good over the bad).

5 hours ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

He's got a bad habit of going for the knockout punch on every play.  He holds onto the ball way, way too long.  That's really what's gotten him hurt.  Everyone dogs on their o-line but it's really not that bad.  They need to tweak their scheme to help him get rid of the ball earlier, and maybe spend a hundred million less or so on the WR position and invest in the backfield and o-line.

Yeah you can just compare Sack % and Pressure % for Flacco vs. Burrow in the same offense. Flacco’s is significantly lower, but even Burrow’s isn’t too bad. Burrow’s pressure % is pretty similar to Bryce’s (23.3 vs. 23.0) and I think we all agree that we have put a pretty good o-line in front of Bryce, even with the injuries this year. 

This dude has led his team to 11 PPG since taking over, which would be an NFL-worst by more than 3 PPG this season. He just put up 3 points at home for his offense against the Falcons two weeks ago. Even Rattler has averaged 5 more PPG this season, and he was benched for how poorly he was leading their offense. Rattler is a second-year 5th round pick with only 14 starts in his NFL career and is younger than Shough, so I think it’s still fair game to compare the two with the exact same supporting cast around them.

Becoming a Shough fanboy is what happens when I guess you just read box scores on ESPN. You can fawn over Completion % and YPG but at the end of the day if a QB isn’t leading his offense to score points, that’s a pretty giant elephant in the room that I can’t just hand-wave.

Is Shough an awful bust? Of course not, his career has barely started, and has a lot of good and a lot of bad like most rookies. But do I think he has been super duper impressive so far? Naw. We should decide as a fanbase if we’re actually serious about wanting better than mediocrity, or if we glaze starting QBs who score 11 PPG. I don’t think those are compatible positions.

3 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

I don't think he's worthy of being nominated for the award this week, even with those very broken down stats.  He had a great statistical game, I'm not saying he didn't, I just see how it was a Top 6 statistical performance this week.

Brown's 10 receptions for 132 Yards and 2 TDs is so much better than anything Bryce put out there statistically today.

It also means you're giving more credit to the "3 TDs of 30+ yards" than Mahomes throwing for 25% more yards and an extra TD, which is something else I'd disagree on, if you need to break down how long a TD pass was to give reasoning as to why lesser stats were actually better than someone else's, then I think you're hurting your own argument.

And yes, I know I've been a very vocal anti Bryce guy, but this has NOTHING to do with that.  I just view this as an award that is purely statistically based, and if anything, could (or maybe should) be done blind and only looking at box score output without knowing players or game outcomes.  And in that view, I don't see how Bryce had a game worthy of being nominated for the award this week, that there were at least 6 better purely statistical performances, that's all.

I agree with you that AJ Brown and Mahomes were deserving of being nominated. I just find it odd that among these 6 nominees, Bryce is the guy you’re singling out as undeserving? Are you that impressed with Swift and Achane’s ~130 yards and 1 TD? It’s a lot easier to do a 1 to 1 statistical comparison between a RB and WR than it is to compare a QB to a WR. So it’s basically 130 yards and 1 TD (Swift/Achane) against 130 yards and 2 TDs (Brown). That’s way more clear and egregious than trying to argue a QB’s 200 yards and 3 TDs is worse than a WR’s 130 yards and 2 TDs. My vote would be swapping in AJ Brown for Swift, if you consider that Swift’s 7th round back-up had basically an equal stat line. And if you want to replace someone else on this list with Mahomes, may I nominate the opposing QB who he faced and outperformed? Dak wasn’t even the best QB in his own stadium that day.  They were both very similar in yardage (if you include Mahomes’ 30 rush yards), but Mahomes had 4 TDs and 0 INTs to Dak’s 2 TDs and 1 INT.

And you’ve talked a lot about your understanding of this award being largely statistics-based. But you have neglected two key stats here: the first being QB Rating, which I believe Bryce led the league in this week (someone fact check me). I know QB Rating is a bit different than a traditional metric that you can objectively evaluate on its own, but it’s arguably the most valuable singular stat since it encompasses all those other key objective metrics in quantifying a QB’s overall performance via a structured formula. 

And the other key stat which appears to be quite significant in their criteria when doling out nominations? WIN VS LOSS. You’ll notice the only nominee here that was on a losing team was Bijan Robinson who had almost 200 scrimmage yards and a TD. That also explains why guys like AJ Brown and Mahomes didn’t get nominated. I went back and revisited the nominees each week going back to Week 9 and you see roughly the same pattern each week: vast majority of nominees from winning teams, and the rare nominee from a losing team having a HUGE statistical performance. Examples being Bowers and London after their ~120 yard 3 TD games, Brissett after his 450 yard game where I think he broke some kind of NFL record for completion percentage, and Jameis Winston last week when he had 400 yards and 3 TDs including a 33-yard touchdown RECEPTION. In fact, those are the only nominees on losing teams over the last 5 weeks (5 total, averaging 1 per week). Bijan Robinson had arguably the most lackluster stat line of all the losers, with only 200 scrimmage yards and a TD. So yeah apparently it takes quite a monster game for a loser to get nominated and Brown/Mahomes apparently didn’t meet that threshold.

59 minutes ago, CRA said:

You want me to explain how Joe Flacco is present day still better than Bryce Young? 

Well, Joe Flacco and Bryce Young both played in the NFL from 2023-present day, so just looking at that window of play….Flacco has been better at almost every aspect of how we judge QB play during that window.  Plus the eyeball test bonus.  And we got Flacco rolling with 3 different teams to give a very diverse sample.  

Only Bryce Young’s mom and dad would argue Bryce has been better than ancient Flacco since being in the NFL (2023-present day). 

 

You kinda gloss over this, but this is really at the crux of this whole argument....which Flacco are we talking here?  You bring up that he played with 3 different teams but ignore the fact that his performance varied quite a bit from team to team.

2024 Colts: 65.3% completion, 12 TDs, 7 INTs, 220.1 YPG, 7.1 Y/A, 90.5 rating

2025 Browns: 58.1% completion, 2 TDs, 6 INTs, 203.8 YPG, 5.1 Y/A, 60.3 rating

2025 Bengals: 63.4% completion, 12 TDs, 3 INTs, 290.6 YPG, 6.8 Y/A, 96.2 rating

2025 Flacco (Browns + Bengals): 61.1% completion, 14 TDs, 9 INTs, 252.0 YPG, 6.1 Y/A, 80.8 rating

vs. 2025 Bryce: 62.7% completion, 14 TDs, 7 INTs, 196.2 YPG, 6.2 Y/A, 86.0 rating

I bolded the comparison that I think objectively makes the most sense...just simply comparing the two QBs for the entire season.  Otherwise you'd be cherry-picking Flacco's time with the Bengals and ignoring his earlier stint with the Browns, which sounds an awful lot like people cherry-picking Bryce's stats in the second half of last season.

So again, which Flacco?  Basically the only thing consistent with Flacco across each of these teams was his W/L records: 2-4, 1-3, and 1-4 respectively.  I'd say if we're comparing each version of him to Bryce this year: Colts Flacco > 2025 Bryce, Browns Flacco <<< 2025 Bryce, Bengals Flacco >> 2025 Bryce, and 2025 Flacco < 2025 Bryce - Flacco this year only beats out Bryce on YPG but in part because he throws significantly more passes (almost 60 YPG more than Bryce, despite a lower Y/A which is pretty telling) . 

Flacco is maybe the most apt case study about how important a QB's circumstances are to his success.  He was easily a bottom 3 QB in Cleveland and arguably top 10-15 in Cincinnati...and we're talking about the same player from the same season.  All that happened was taking him from one team and plopping him onto another team; nothing inherently changed about him as a QB.  Funny enough I think that's all that one dude on here was trying to say when he made that long poorly-received post after having an epiphany working for PFF behind the scenes or w/e.  That it's largely short-sighted to just try to evaluate QBs in a vacuum when there are so many variables at play that ultimately decide whether a QB is successful or not.  

I think Bryce has been mediocre at best this season and I'm ready to move on regardless of how he ends this season - I'm highly skeptical a strong end to the season will carry over into next year considering how last year ended and this year began.  I would certainly agree that he's a bottom-third QB this year.  I just don't understand you scoffing indignantly at anyone holding the opinion that Bryce has had a better season than Flacco...I can only assume it's recency bias.  Or maybe you know the stats don't support you, which is why you're conjuring up the god-forsaken arbitrary "eyeball test" which is the kinda thing people in here were saying about Fields for years, pinky promising that he really truly was a franchise QB despite his awful stats.  Perhaps it's called the eyeball test because I roll my eyes anytime I hear someone bring it up seriously as an argument.

I’m not making any arguments for or against McMillan. But to those saying WRs don’t need to watch film - is there no benefit to studying the opposing CB he’s going to be lined up against? I would think any matchup-based positional battle can benefit from studying film on the opposition. Especially a top WR who can expect to be shadowed by the #1 CB…if they can learn the CBs tendencies, strengths/weaknesses, etc and use that to exploit their matchup, that’s a part of film study.

6 minutes ago, frankw said:

4 extra games and only 8 more starts.

Considering that a win is basically victory lapping a blind kid.

I'm sorry if fact-checking is uncomfortable for you since you just blindly accepted what he said as the truth.  I mean why not just say Jaycee Horn has never played a single game and has had both legs amputated in the offseason if you want to be hyperbolic and think it's acceptable to lie about statistics?  We can acknowledge that he has serious injury concerns while also not making stuff up.

On 3/17/2025 at 12:38 PM, CRA said:

Jeff Otah while employed started in a higher % of games and he is the historical board meme for not being able to play. 

That's not even true...  

Jeff Otah started 29/64 games (missed all of 2010) = 45%.

Horn started 37/68 games = 54%.

On 3/14/2025 at 5:47 PM, CRA said:

So….2024 he was a top 10 corner? I concede he made the Pro Bowl.  Which is a fan and then player popularity contest.   Top players at their position often don’t make it and we often see guys who aren’t make it.  That’s what the Pro Bowl is. 

Statistically he wasn’t in 2024 by old metrics. Nor did he rank as such by the newer metrics and methods out there. 

And the ONE game to my knowledge he largely matched up all game with their opponents lead WR….a washed Nuk Hopkins won the day 

You think Jaycee Horn of the Carolina Panthers is out here winning popularity contests?  Hell if anything, it's more likely he suffered from the fan portion and had to make up a lot of ground among player and coach voting.  

Remember this graphic from a year ago?  Somehow I don't think our fans are coming out in droves to campaign for Pro Bowl selections for our players.  I don't hold the Pro Bowl in super high regard but if the claim is that no reasonable person thinks Jaycee Horn is a Top 10 cornerback, I think pointing to his Pro Bowl selection is surely a valid rebuttal to that.  It would appear a lot of NFL players and coaches think he's a Top 10 cornerback, which I find rather compelling.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/panthers-are-working-to-finalize-a-deal-with-eagles-dt-milton-williams

Quote

Adam Schefter of ESPN.com reports that the Panthers are “working to finalize” a deal with Williams. Schefter adds that “it’s going to get done,” and that Williams will be making more than $20 million per year.

I think hopefully we're still okay?

9 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Does this take Mason Graham off our draft board now?

I don't think any of these moves in FA takes anyone off our board.  Teams should be using FA to address their needs so that they can take BPA in the draft, instead of reaching out of desperation.  I'm sure we have even stated as such.

19 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Since 2000 24 tight ends have been drafted in the first round.  4 in the top ten.   By all means please tell me which te was worth taking from that list.   Yeah I thought so.

 

If we take a te at pick 8 there the fans should burn ericsson stadium to the ground

 

• Brock Bowers, Las Vegas Raiders
• No. 13 overall, 2024
• Kyle Pitts, Atlanta Falcons
  No. 4 overall, 2021
• T.J. Hockenson, Detroit Lions
  No. 8, 2019
• Noah Fant, Denver Broncos
  No. 20, 2019
• Hayden Hurst, Baltimore Ravens
  No. 25, 2018
• O.J. Howard, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
  No. 19, 2017
• Evan Engram, New York Giants
  No. 23, 2017
• David Njoku, Cleveland Browns
  No. 29, 2017
• Eric Ebron, Detroit Lions
  No. 10, 2014
• Tyler Eifert, Cincinnati Bengals
  No. 21, 2013
• Jermaine Gresham, Cincinnati Bengals
  No. 21, 2010
• Brandon Pettigrew, Detroit Lions
  No. 20, 2009
• Dustin Keller, New York Jets
  No. 30, 2008
• Greg Olsen, Chicago Bears
  No. 31, 2007
• Vernon Davis, San Francisco 49ers
  No. 6, 2006
• Marcedes Lewis, Jacksonville Jaguars
  No. 28, 2006
• Heath Miller, Pittsburgh Steelers
  No. 30, 2005
• Kellen Winslow II, Cleveland Browns
  No. 6, 2004
• Ben Watson, New England Patriots
  No. 32, 2004
• Dallas Clark, Indianapolis Colts
  No. 24, 2003
• Jeremy Shockey, New York Giants
  No. 14, 2002
• Daniel Graham, New England Patriots
  No. 21, 2002
• Jerramy Stevens, Seattle Seahawks
  No. 28, 2002
• Todd Heap, Baltimore Ravens
  No. 31, 2001
• Bubba Franks, Green Bay Packers
  No. 14, 2000
• Anthony Becht, New York Jets
  No. 27, 2000

How is this not a variation of the argument people gave for not drafting CJ Stroud because "look at this long list of failed Ohio State QBs"?  I think it makes a lot more sense to judge a prospect on their own merits, rather than dinging them for the accomplishments (or lack thereof) of randos like Daniel Graham from 2002.  All those players you listed have their own strengths/weaknesses and failed/underachieved for one reason or another unique to them as individuals.  If you want to argue positional value, then that's different.  I don't know anything about Tyler Warren, but if I could theoretically draft a Greg Olsen or a Brock Bowers with the 8th overall pick?  I'd take that.

6 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

I was talking about Ian Thomas lol.  Mike Jackson is as good as gone.  He's going to get overpaid.

But in all seriousness I thought I saw something that said the team expected to let Thomas walk.

https://www.si.com/nfl/panthers/nfl-carolina-panthers-predicted-shaq-thompson-eddy-pineiro-ian-thomas-move-on

Quote

Heading into the combine, the Athletic's Panthers beat reporter Joe Person is expecting that the team will move on from three vets: long-time linebacker Shaq Thompson, kicker Eddy Pineiro and tight end Ian Thomas.

It links to the same article in the OP but I don't have a subscription to see which interpretation is more accurate as to whether Person thinks the Panthers "could" move on from Ian Thomas (as Juan characterized) or whether Person expects the Panthers to move on from Ian Thomas (as SI characterized).

1 hour ago, Icege said:

I was explicitly told that CJ would elevate DJ...

Poor CJS4LIFE

6 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Just pointed out that Coleman was far more productive because he only had half the targets. Your first line compared Legette to Coleman. Coleman is a typical rookie. I’d be happy with Legette’s production in a vacuum, but it kind of reminds me a bit of TMJ where people were surprised that he had as many snaps as he did and people excused his production by saying he needed more opportunity when he was our WR2.

I wasn’t really even arguing. I saw two posts using other WRs as examples of why Legette was solid and I wanted to add some comments. Legette has a lot of work to do and I really hope he takes the next step but he had better stats than actual production/effectiveness.

I only compared Legette and Coleman because the post I was responding to had compared them.

Not sure why you're still claiming I said Legette "was solid", even after my last post was entirely dedicated to clarifying that he struggled.  Even the other guy you think said Legette was solid, seemed to more be pointing out the double standard to praise an "impact rookie" like Troy Franklin who had far less production. 

Even if you want to go with the "more targets" angle, the Troy Franklin comparison doesn't really make sense either.  Legette had 58% more targets than Franklin, but 89% more yards and technically 100% more TDs, although TDs are harder and less reliable to extrapolate.  So Franklin still underproduced Legette if you normalize for target share.  His point remains valid even under your reasoning.  Yes Franklin was a 4th round pick and I think that's the key difference, but again that circles back to nobody disputing that Legette struggled this year, despite you misinterpreting a couple of posts in here.

Anyways, sounds like we largely agree.