grimesgoat

34 minutes ago, wesley17 said:

Yes I would do it, but why would Philly?

If Thiboudeaux, Stingley, Gardner, or Hamilton are still there at 6 - they may want to move up.  They can't get any of those guys at 15.

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

Compiled by various members of The Athletic staff, a list of players that teams might be looking to move on from via either cut or trade for cap reasons (Link)

For the Panthers...

- CB AJ Bouye

- WR Robby Anderson

- DE Morgan Fox

- T Cam Erving

- OL Dennis Daley

We really got a good deal on Bouye.  If we re-sign Gilmore or Jackson, I bet they try to move him.  Could be worth a 5th and saves us 3.5m.

No one will touch Anderson. He'll never be worth the money we paid, but cure the dropsies and he's a decent weapon.  What a bad extension that was.

Cutting Fox saves 3m.  Good luck finding someone comparable for that amount.  We are already losing Reddick and Jones so can't see him going anywhere.

Erving is a decent swing T.  Saves 2m to cut (4.5m dead).  It will be tough to find a vet swing T for 2m.  Probably ride with him another year.  Better OL coach should help here.

Daley - No way we pay 2.5m to an average talent like this.  He can be replaced with one of our 6ths at significantly less cost.  Best of luck to Mr. Daley.

Surprised Jackson is not on that list.

Bridgewater to TB?

43 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

I agree that our safest bet is probably going LT this year, but people need to be carefull with this idea of next year being a better option for QBs just because on paper it's a better class.

What if we are a bit more competitive like you stated and end up winning 8 games.  If we are drafting 13th it might not matter if the overall QB class is stronger next year.  At 6 this year we might get QB1, at 12-13 next year you might end up with QB 4 or 5.

At the end of the day there is risk either way, like you, barring a trade down, I'm leaning towards taking the best LT at 6, but i can see arguments on both sides.

 

I think CMC is the difference.  When he played, we were 4-3.  When he was out, we were 1-9.

With our defense and a healthy CMC, we can field a competitive team regardless of our QB shortcomings.

If CMC is hurt and misses half the season, we'll win 4-5 games and be picking in the top 5. Darnold will be gone and CMC will be cut.  We can get a good QB there and start out fresh with a new coach.

If he is healthy, our ceiling is probably 8 wins, which will put us picking around 10-14.  We can still get a good young QB in that range but none of the top 3. 

If we have to pick a QB this year, I hope we move back, pick up a second, and select Strong.  Give him a chance to sit and watch for a while and improve the OL with our first.  I think he will be successful when the new coaching regime arrives next year.

5 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

 

My only point was they don't have to trade him because they can't get under the cap any other way.  They could get under the cap without even losing those key players.  

I agree that he should go for less than what people think.  I just hope we are patient and don't give the Vikings an easy out.

I would be shocked if he signed an extension.  With the $35m guaranteed there is no reason for him to sign any type of deal unless it's a premium and I can't see them wanting to give out a 3yr/100m type of deal.

I don't see them taking Darnold and just swapping picks though.  In a vacuum that might sound good but you have to remember there are other teams out there that might offer something.  If you are the Vikings would you take Darnold and 1st round pick swap (6 spots) or a 2nd round pick from someone else?  I might like that 2nd rounder more because I save $18m I don't have to pay Darnold and I still have my 1st rounder that I can draft my QB.

So pick 6 + Darnold or pick 12 + $18m + 2nd rounder?  

The question becomes is there another team out there what would offer at least a 2nd?

 

 

Probably.  Denver, Washington, Pittsburg, and Houston are all teams probably considering a QB upgrade with more available cap than us.  Last thing I'd do is get in a bidding war.

I still believe our best option is to try to trade back, grab an OL and LB in rounds 1 and 2, and roll with Darnold for another year.  If everyone stays healthy (looking at you CMC), we may have a competitive season.  Then we draft our favorite QB next year when the class looks to be a little better.

20 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Their cap situation is overstated.  They have a good bit of flexibility in some of their other contracts.

They could release or trade one player, Hunter, and save $20m and be under the cap.

Release or trade Kendricks save another $9.5.

Restructure Thielen, they could free up $10m more.

Thats just a start, there have several more contracts that could easily present substantial cap savings if cut, traded, or restructured.

They don't have to do anything with Cousins financially, they might want to, they might decide that is too much to pay him for one year but financially they don't absolutely have to.

Also they could give Cousins an extension and greatly decrease his cap hit this year.  Problem with an extension though is Cousins has all of the leverage.  He knows he has a guaranteed $35m for one year.  He can always turn down their offer and just play for one year.  I'm guessing for him to sign an extension they would have to overpay on a long term deal.

 

 

 

Releasing or trading your two best defensive players does not feel like great flexibility, but I agree they could claw their way out of it by punting some money into the future and/or gutting the roster.  This is always an option.

But my guess is that a new regime will want a clean slate.  Get the finances in order (i.e. move cousins) and draft a QB.  Keep your best pass rusher and your all-pro LB (coming off a 143 tackle/5 sack season).  Take your lumps early in the honeymoon period with a rookie QB. 

Had we done this instead of trying to compete each year - we'd be in so much better shape.

To be clear - I'm not advocating for Cousins.  Don't want another 1-year rental.  But I think he could be had with very little changing hands.  It should be unnecessary to lose our first rounder.

Vikings are in really bad shape.  They are over the cap by 18m, they owe Cousins 45m guaranteed, and Kellen Mond is their backup.  I don't see a great deal of flexibility to find more money other than moving Cousins.

I speculated this move on another thread, but I could see a Cousins for Darnold deal straight up, or maybe with a 1st round pick swap.  Minn. gets a stopgap QB, the 6th pick to draft their future QB, and cap relief of 15-20m.  Panthers keep a first rounder to draft an Offensive lineman and get a huge upgrade at QB. Maybe Minn. throws in one of their 6ths just to make us feel better.

He's been my target from the start IF we trade back and can get him in the second.  That way he will be able to sit for at least half of the season and get up to speed.  

Wouldn't take him at 6.

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Honestly, would anyone even remember who Jadeveon Clowney was if he hadn't hit that Michigan RB really hard that one time?

Who knows.  He hasn't been a complete bust or anything.  3 pro bowls.  9+ sacks 3 times.

Just not worth the #1 pick.  He's still only 29 and he had a good 2021.  Maybe his career will turn out decent.

I wouldn't touch him though.

9 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Clowney is the defensive version of Sam Bradford. The play never came close to the hype and the contracts.

no doubt.

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

$4.5M per year??!! 

Reminder: We paid Reddick $6M last year and he was signed coming off of a season where he was 5th in the NFL in sacks.

Gotta think that was the exception.  Clowney was 20th in sacks in 2021.  Think he's signing anywhere for 6m?

4 minutes ago, BurnNChinn said:

I agree with this, I like Luvu a lot. But if he only plays like he did last year a little high. Whose spot is he takin defense?

I think this is a good signing.    

Sounds like he got 3m to sign and his salary will be 2m in year 1.  So the cap hit will be 3.5m - not too bad for a ST / Rotational LB.

Year 2 should be just a salary of 4m and cap hit of 5.5.  Cap savings of 4m if cut with 1.5m dead.  Not too damaging.

On 2/15/2022 at 8:02 PM, KatsAzz said:

PFF has Reddick ranked 31st overall on the market and projects his incoming deal to be a three-year pact at an annual average of $11.67 million. So the question is, will the Panthers fork that over?

With a fairly limited amount of cap space and a handful of areas that need addressing, Reddick may have to get that deal elsewhere.

That's not bad.  Give him 3/35 with a 15m signing bonus.  Salary of 1m, 9m, 10m.  Salary hit this year of 6m (not counting the 4m dead we already incurred on him).  The third year should not be guaranteed so cap savings if cut would be 10m with 5 dead.  That's manageable for his talent.  He probably wants more, but maybe he does it for his buddy Rhule.

He's due to make 11m this year.  I'd try to extend him - 3 years 42m with 15m signing bonus.  Salary of 1m, 13m, 13m.  Gives us 5m in cap savings for 2022.

If he says no, trade him to Philly for their 16th pick.  They need a good #2 possession receiver.

Let Marshall and Shi play.   

Not advocating for this, but here's one possible scenario...

Rhule has to take a big swing on QB or he's out.  Minnesota is currently 18m over the cap without a lot of flexibility.  Cousins is soaking up 45m in cap with 35 dead if he's cut.  They have to move him.

Panthers trade Darnold (18m cap) and Bouye for Cousins (35m cap) and a 5th.

Minnesota gets cap relief of around 15-20m or so and can use their #12 pick on a QB (remember this is a new regime with a hotshot offensive mind at the wheel).  They have several nice weapons and probably see Darnold as a cheaper bridge for their new draftee.

Panthers get a proven successful QB for one year.  They keep their pick so they can add some OL talent.  The extra 5th may help as well.  They will probably need to convert some base salary to bonus for Moton and Shaq and extend DJ in order to get extra cap, but those are fairly easy adjustments as these are long-term investments. 

21 hours ago, AU-panther said:

For all those that want OL instead of QB, which is a valid thought, what if:

We draft a LT that plays well his first year

BC moves to guard and plays well

Our new OL coach, who has a great reputation, helps improve the rest of the line.

Our WR core plays up to their potential.

CMC comes back healthy and stays that way.

Our new OC helps Sam improve.

Horn comes back healthy.  

The other young guys on defense continue to improve.

We go 9-8 and 

Tepper decides to keep Rhule 

and we 

Resign Sam

Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for in life.

Honestly by being greedy and waiting to get a new QB we actually might increase our chances of not getting a rookie QB at all.

 

 

I think in that scenario we offer Sam something like 2 for 25m with maybe 15m guaranteed.  Then draft a QB in 2023 and let him sit for a year before handing him the keys.

13 minutes ago, Toomers said:

You posted incorrect information that directly contradicted his information, exact contract details, and knowledge. The details are important. And you called everyone out while you didn’t understand the details yourself. 
 

   And on to step 2 of denial. The why are you here is right out of the butthurt Huddle playbook. Last I checked, Cam was on this team at the end of the season. And countless posters said I would be gone after predicting that Rhule’s tenure would be a disaster. I was a Steelers troll for suggesting exercising Darnolds option was a colossal mistake. Should I leave for being correct?

Well your first paragraph is not correct.

Don't really get the second paragraph.  You've made some predictions that may or may not be true.  Did you predict Cam would be on the team at the end of the season?  good for you I guess.  Jury's still out on Rhule's tenure (we just finished year 2 of a 7 year contract by the way) and we'll know how bad extending Darnold's option was at the end of next year.  You might be correct - but saying you are already correct is actually not correct.

Bottom line - I don't care that you are here - just wish you were more respectful toward my fellow panther fans.  You obviously are not a fan but you seem to think you are somehow contributing.  But to me, it just looks like you are here to somehow feel superior to everyone, which I find ironic.

7 minutes ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

I've always been a optimistic person when it comes to the Panthers.  Each year regardless of what the reality may become I have to hope and pray that when the season starts we are going to be relevant.   So here goes.

Rhule may have come to his senses with the hiring of an upgraded coaching staff.

McAdoo - We have the talent on offense to be good. McAdoo is an experienced OC and should be able to do what Brady couldn't and that was halftime adjustments. If he is competent we might just score enough points and be in many more games.  

Of all the hires this is my favorite. I think Campen is going to get our offensive line straight.  i think in 2022 we'll see our 2021 rookies actually play and be productive.  If Fitterer can get us an offensive linemen or two that has performed well this past season. (no reclaimation projects) Campen could turn our worst group into something respectable.

Wilks did a great job when he was here before as a DB coach.  This time around he has better talent.   Teaming up with Snow could make our defense better than 2021. 

If we draft a QB than we allow him to sit behind Darnold and Cam (yes i hope we resign him to be on the team in 2022, I'm done with the PJ Walker trial).  Let Cam and Darnold battle it out in preseason to see who starts.

If we draft a lineman I would rather go with Linderbaum and get a stud at center and let Christensen play LT.   Maybe even trade down a couple of spots and grab an additional pick or two and still get Linderbaum.

I know many things must fall into place to bring this team back to contention but we have Rhule for one more season.  Might as well hope for the best.

Who knows maybe 2021 was an eye opener and he actually can be a good coach.   (hears the entire huddle explode)  But just maybe.

Optimists are an endangered species around here lately.  I'm an optimist too.  I always think things can get better.  I like the coaching upgrades. 

If we can trade back and grab Linderbaum, Dean or Lloyd - than use the extra draft capital to pick up a solid Guard, we would be in decent shape.

Then if CMC is back and healthy - we might even be in the playoff mix.

4 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

i get what you are saying about not being able to replace CMC for 6m this year, but then you save $17.7m next year since you ate all of the cap hit this year.  Would you prefer CMC for the next two years or an extra $13.5m in cap space for the next two years plus potential draft picks.

Also would you give up $4.2m for an extra 1st rounder this year?  2nd rounder?  3rd rounder?

All the June 1st talk can get confusing for fans so sometimes this best way to decide if a deal is smart or not is to look at the total cost.

If we trade CMC this year his total cap hit will be $18.5m.  (either spread or not)

If we keep CMC this year and then trade him next his 2022 cap hit will be 14.3m (2022 cap hit) plus 12.8m dead money cap hit in 2023 for a total of $27.1m.

If we keep CMC the next two years and then trade him in 2024 his cap hit will be 14.3m(2022 cap hit) plus $17.7m (2023 cap hit) plus $7.1 (remaining dead money) for a total of $38.5m.

So here are your choices:

Trade CMC this year for a total cap cost of $14.3m and hope to get picks.

Let CMC play one more year then trade him in 2023 for a total cap cost of $27.1m.

Let CMC play two more years then trade him in 2024 for a total cap cost of $38.5m.

When you factor in that there isnt a very good chance we aren't going to be that good this upcoming year it makes a lot of financial sense to go ahead and trade him.

 

 

 

I believe your numbers are fine, but I respectively disagree on your conclusion.  We are not competing for a superb owl next year, but we are trying to develop a QB and OL.  Whether that QB is Darnold or a Rookie, a player like CMC could be invaluable to that development.  If a QB's options are hand it to Chubba or throw it to Anderson, he is doomed before he even starts.  And no OL will want to block for that shitshow.  But having some competency/skill/hope is, in my opinion, critical and worth the 14m price tag.  Sure he could get hurt, but he managed to play 48 out of 48 games from 2017-2019 and he's extraordinarily productive when he's out there.  Even if he only plays 10-12 games, he could be instrumental in helping the OL and QB improve throughout the year.

2023 is when I'd make my decision on him (unless of course someone offered me a deal I could not refuse).

8 minutes ago, Toomers said:

I’m devastated…lol

    Was I wrong. Did you not call his take silly then conveniently leave out the main points that were relevant as you stated your own false statements? Let me guess. You enjoyed them until I said you were wrong about something. That’s how the Huddle works. If you want someone to pat you on the head when you’re wrong…look elsewhere. 

Don't want you devastated, but some self-realization wouldn't hurt.

I did not call AU-Panther's take silly.  He was not on my radar.  The silly take is the 'let's trade CMC' take without the contractual details in place.  The details are important.

And you completely mischaracterize my motivations.  I don't mind being wrong.  I admitted the additional cost to trade CMC is around 6m vs. 12m.  I was never looking for any head-patting or huddle validation.  I'm just here to share my thoughts on our team and what we may be able to do to improve.

What I can't figure out is why are you here? 

7 minutes ago, Toomers said:

   I see you’re still trying to teach algebra to cats. How can someone not understand the simple math involved with the salary cap? And, as you said, the site does the work for you and they still have no clue. As they call you wrong and silly for being 100% correct. 

lol.  I used to enjoy reading your posts.  Now I just think of you as huge douche.  Sad.

22 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

wrong

cutting and trading a player have different cap implications.

CMC's cap hit this year if he plays:  $14.3m

CMC's cap hit if cut before June 1st:  $26.6m (12.3m loss in cap space)

CMC;s cap hit if traded before June 1st:  $18.5m (4.2m loss in cap space)

Part of that 26.6m in dead money that your reference is $8.1m in guaranteed salary for this upcoming year, guaranteed salary can be traded and most likely the next team would account for.

If we trade him after June 1st the numbers change even more

CMCs cap hit this year if traded after June 1st: $5.7m, which would be a 2022 cap savings of $8.7m.

Of course that would leave a cap hit of $12.8m for 2023, but that would actually be less then the $17.7m if he played in 2023.

Christian McCaffrey Contract Breakdowns, Salary Cap Figures, Salaries, Bonuses | Spotrac

click on the red arrow to the right of the 2022 year and spotrac will break all of this down for you.

 

 

 

I didn't mention the post-june 1 actions because your just kicking the can down the road. 

Otherwise we seem to agree on everything except the pre-june 1 2022 trade option. A trade will cost 4.2m (assuming the other team picks up all of the base salary),  With the 4.2m plus the salary of the picks we receive, it may cost us 6m or so to replace CMC.  If we can replace CMC productivity for 6m or so, sounds like a plan.  

Will CMC be hurt this year or will he be healthy.  Let us know so we can plan accordingly.

12 hours ago, Jackie Lee said:

I mean he overpayed for a QB bust in Darnold so the jury is still out on Fitt. Maybe Rhule wanted him but Fitt made the shitty deal. It's just not a good move in the first place to have a college coach from Baylor micromanaging every move in the building, If we got Fitt first things might be different but we'll never know

I'm still not convinced Darnold is not salvageable.  No way he's worth the 20m price tag he gets this year (bad decision there),  but barring injury he'll probably be around a long time in this league.  In the right environment, he may even be successful.  Giving up a 2nd and 4th for a former first round QB that had languished in a dis-functional environment for 3 years was not considered a huge cost at the time.  It was better than giving up future firsts to move up to get Fields or Lance.

Hindsight is 20/20.  Had we known Fields would be there at 8, would we have done the deal for Darnold?  Maybe not.

Who knows, maybe there is a team out there that sees the dis-functional environment here in Panther land and thinks - 'poor Sam, I can fix that...how about a 4th rounder?'

There are some silly takes on this thread due to a misunderstanding of CMCs Contract.

In 2022, our choices are - keep CMC with a cap hit of 14.3m, or trade/cut him for a cap hit of 26.6m.  There is no savings.  We lose the player and an additional 12.3m.  We're paying 12.3m for whatever we can get in a trade.  Who wants to pay 12.3m for a 2nd or a 3rd rounder?

Or we keep him for a year.  Maybe he returns to form or maybe he's hurt all year.  Who knows.

Then in 2023 our choices are - keep CMC with a cap hit of 17.7m or trade/cut him for a cap hit of 12.8m.  We save 4.9m and if traded, we get something for him.  This is a far more likely scenario.

Unless someone is giving me a 1st and 2nd for CMC, I'm not losing that extra 12.3m this year.