grimesgoat

9 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'm fine with that sort of arrangement, but ours is not that simple.

Rhule has final say over everything in the program. It's the same model Seattle has with Pete Carroll, but Pete Carroll was a guy with real NFL experience and a far higher level of success at the college level than Matt Rhule.

Giving Rhule that kind of power was like taking the assistant manager at the local McDonald's and making him CEO of the corporation.

yeah - i get that you don't think he's qualified, but I don't know how you hire a guy and don't do what you can to give him the tools (players) he believes he needs to be successful.  To me that's a little different.

Now if you have evidence that Rhule is negotiating salaries and extensions and managing the cap while handling the building of the new practice facility, organizing the off season weight lifting programs, and putting together the menus for the player's spread, you'll be on to something.

26 minutes ago, NanuqoftheNorth said:

If he were the commissioner of the Big 12 that would be one thing, he was the head coach of a couple of teams that were never going to seriously challenge the top tier teams in college football.

Hence mid-tier.

I don't understand the commissioner thing, but he did take a 1 win team in a power 5 conference and 2 years later they were ranked #7 in the country.  That same school is now ranked 6th in the country.  Temple will never amount to much but it seems like Baylor is definitely challenging the top tier teams.

Hell - if Baylor is a mid-tier school, how the hell did they manage to win the NCAA basketball tourney last year? 

24 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

For one, the bullsh-t that a guy who had only coached at places like Temple and Baylor (and hadn't even won so much as a conference championship at those places) deserved to have full control of an NFL operation.

Don't care how hot a coach anyone thought Rhule was at the time. That was one of the stupidest decisions I've ever seen, and that comes from someone who watched fifteen seasons of Marty Hurney running the team.

I don't really know what you expected.  Isn't a GM and Coach supposed to work together to get the guys the coach wants that fit his scheme.

16 minutes ago, stbugs said:

It’s a 2022 5th and I’ll believe we'll go for comp picks when I see it.

I don’t think the numbers are misleading, that’s the amount spent to show that  we’ve been very free with contracts to guys giving us next to nothing. It was meant to show how even though we aren’t signing marquee guys the money we spent has prevented us from having a bundle to rollover and spend on good FAs.

I’m not as optimistic on Fitterer as I was after the draft. The OL FAs, picks and missed opportunities along with Sam, give me pause. I hope he does better but I’m in a prove it mode. Prove that we don’t waste cap, don’t waste comp picks and draft solid players.  

You're right - it is 2022 5th.  misread that.  We have 2 5ths this year.  Prime OL spots.

My thinking on free agents - sometimes you just have to take a chance.  There's not a limitless supply of guys available.  Hopefully you win on most knowing there will be some stinkers along the way.  Elf and Erving haven't been great, but it wasn't like we gave them 10m per year.

Having said that, I would not have paid Robbie that much money, especially right after drafting Marshall.  But the good news is, if he totally sucks again next year, he'll only cost us 4m in dead money in 2024 (vs. paying him 16m in salary).

4 minutes ago, NanuqoftheNorth said:

So does Tepper. 

Instead he chose to rely on Marty Hurney as his advisor and took a flyer on a mid-tier college coach.

Time for Tepper to deploy the heavy artillery and bring in a successful former NFL executive to help guide him through the process of building a championship organization.

Marty Hurney and Matt Rhule ain't cutting it.

I hear a lot of people say he was a mid-tier college coach.  I'm genuinely curious, how would you tier the college football conferences.

For me its..

Tier 1: SEC

Tier 2: Big 10, Big 12

Tier 3: Pac 12, ACC

Tier 4: everyone else

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

I'm not certain Tepper even had a clue that Hurney was a bad GM until Rhule came along.

(for whatever else you can say about Rhule, we do at least have to thank him for that)

Does he get that Rhule is bad? Don't know. He fell for Rhule's bullsh-t when he hired him. Does he still believe it? Who can say?

I'll give him that he did fire Rivera. Here's hoping that same clarity applies to Matt Rhule.

I don't know what bullshit you are referring to but Rhule definitely had some success and was the hot coach at the time.  Dude went from 1-11 to 11-3 in 3 years in the big 12.  Hell in his last year he had a 10-4 record at Temple, an historically bad doormat.  To get a sense of how bad Temple is, they were 31-148 from 1990-2006.  I mean that is beyond pathetic.

Rhule may get better as an NFL coach over time, but he clearly is not ready now and I suspect Tepper sees that.  I imagine he will be let go at the end of the year.  But I don't question the roll of the dice that brought him here in the first place.  Its not like there were a bunch of sure things out there.  There were pros and cons for each guy interviewed.

But I think its time to move on.

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

We could load up on comp picks this year but we won’t. We’ll yet again waste money on stop gap poo. We spent $77M this off season on Sam, Erving, Elflein and Anderson. We spent $70M last year on Teddy, Short, Okung, Weatherly, Apple and Roberts.

You think these guys on the hot seat aren’t going to mortgage the future to look good? It sucks too because like we lost Bradberry’s 3rd, we’d probably get a 3rd/4th for Reddick, 3/4 for Donte and a 5 for Gilmore. I think the max teams can get is 4. 

Also, what Jax pick in 2023? We got back their 2022 pick for Henderson but gave up our 2022 3rd.

When we traded arnold and the third, we got henderson and a 2023 5th.

Your numbers for Sam, Erving, Elf, and Anderson are a little misleading.  The 77m is spread over 3 years.

The salary for those 4 guys this year is about 19m.

The salary in 2023 for those 4 guys is 49m.

The salary in 2024 for those remaining (Anderson and Elf) is 21m or 4m dead.

We made a mistake with TB.  I think the Darnold trade was a calculated gamble that probably will not work out long term.

The only one on the hot seat is Rhule.  I think Fitterer is safe.  And therefore he will not allow a 'mortgage the future' scenario to play out.  He will try to get some guys Rhule likes (assuming Rhule is here) by trading back, etc. but I don't think he will trade away any future 2023 assets or make a bunch of splash signings that will impact our comp pick picture. 

Think about it, if Rhule is here, his warm seat will prevent Fitterer from doing something stupid.  If Rhule is gone, we will be in another rebuild and Fitterer will not squander assets on a win now mentality.  We finally have a competent GM - let's watch him work.

17 minutes ago, catnip said:

Take the top LT in the draft or trade down a little for extra pics . Only take a QB if you are certain he is the franchise QB .  Trade a CB to a team of need for a pic or vet O-line player .  Keep Cam if he gives a team friendly deal .  Trade PJ Walker if possible and let Jackson walk .  Move CMC to the slot . Move Chinn back to LB or CB . Keep Fits and find a new coach .

I agree for the most part.  I'd roll with Darnold and Cam.  We won't get anything for PJ.  But between Reddick, Jackson, Gilmore, Jones, Carter, Thomas, we should be able to get some decent comp picks for 2023.  Maybe a 3rd and 5th to go along with Jacksonville's 4th next year.  That should give us some ammunition to grab a QB next year after we win 6 games again.

I like moving CMC to slot.  Maybe we get more production that way. 

Draft the best OL we can get in round 1.  Between Moton, 1st Round Rookie, Christianson, Brown, Elflein, Erving we should be able to piece together a line that is not too embarrassing.

Stay away from Free Agency.  Maybe use money to extend some guys we like but don't waste any more money except for 5-10 m. for Cam.

In 2023 we'll have Darnold off the books, more flexibility in dealing with CMC, and a ton of draft capital and cap room to get our QB and target our needs.  We just need to suck it up for a year.

33 minutes ago, frankw said:

Exactly. What part of paying a marginal quarterback 30 million dollars for one season sounds like a rebuild? We could have just kept Heinicke and Cam. The sad truth is nobody on this staff can evaluate quarterbacks or olinemen.

I believe at the time, the salary was not outrageous.  The cap hit in 2020 was only 14m, which is not crazy for a starting NFL vet QB.  Only when we traded him did he cost us the additional cash.

To me, keeping Cam was not an option.  In 2018 he lost his last 6 games in a row (before finally sitting down the last 2), averaging 18 pts and throwing 9 tds and 9 picks.  In 2019, he lost the only two games he played in (cap hit 23.2m).  In 2020, the choice was pay him 20m and hope he holds up or start a rebuild and take a 2m hit.  That's assuming he would not hold out for an extension.  It would be malpractice not to cut him at that point.

Heineke hadn't showed anything at that point but I wasn't opposed to him.  I was in favor with rolling with Allen and signing someone like Flacco cheap to come in and mentor him.  I thought that pair would create competitive games but still land us with a top 5 pick.  Bridgewater was not on my radar and did not like the signing but whatevs.

I won't debate the OL issue.  Pickings have been slim.  They've tried some stuff, but most draft capital has gone to the defense.  This may prove to be the right move in a year or two as these guys mature.  We'll see.

15 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

You don't shoot your cap situation to hell and trade away half your upcoming draft to rebuild.

When you need a QB and four starting OL, you're not all that close... especially when your cap situation isn't fantastic and you have minimal draft capital to work with.

 

Could be worse.  Many advocated for trading our first and next year's 1st and 2nd to move up and pick Fields.  Imagine sitting here with Fields as our QB1, no Horn, no 1-3 round picks next year (assuming we still traded for Henderson), and the same shitty line.

9 minutes ago, TheRumGone said:

And also I said last year that if you draft a franchise qb and he doesn’t fit your offense then you fire the OC and bring in someone who is capable of designing the system to the guy you drafted. If Brady couldn’t do that then he needed to be gone. Teddy was always suppose to be a bridge for another drafted qb. They didn’t draft another qb and doubled down on Sam Darnold. The plan should’ve been to keep cam, draft a qb and bring in a vet like Teddy that could come in if cam couldn’t stay healthy (he ended up staying healthy in 2020)

interesting.  I think Teddy was supposed to be a bridge as well.  But then Darnold became available and they thought he would be as good as any rookie they could get (and they get to keep their first rounder).  That's why they kept saying they consider Darnold a "rookie" even though he'd been around awhile.  Arguably they were right from a wins and losses standpoint as Darnold is (was?) 4-5 whereas Lawrence is 2-10, Wilson is 2-6, Lance is 0-1, and Fields is 2-6. 

Can't get behind keeping Cam though.  Not sure Teddy would come if Cam was still here and after the prior 3 seasons, there was serious doubt whether Cam would ever throw a ball more than 20 yds again.  Teams would stack the box and it would get ugly fast.

8 minutes ago, hepcat said:

Now that Joe Brady has been fired from the Panthers, I can't help but reflect on what a bad hire it was. And I don't think it was his fault.

I don't believe the Panthers offense failed under Joe Brady because he is a bad coach. It failed because he was put into a situation he clearly wasn't ready for, and maybe one he wasn't ever set up to succeed in. I think he was set up for failure from the start.

From the get-go, the offensive staff was made up of Matt Rhule's assistants or guys hired 3rd party from other teams. There wasn't a single coach on the staff that Brady had worked with before coming to the Panthers.

Pair that with the fact Joe Brady had never called plays before coming to the Panthers. He had 2 years of NFL experience as an assistant on the Saints before becoming an NFL offensive coordinator. 

Also, the players he was given. I know a coach is supposed to make the best out of the players he is given, that is the definition of the job of a coach. But Teddy Bridgewater and Sam Darnold aren't the types of QBs that can save a wildly inexperienced offensive coordinator with their play. Those are QB's that need the offensive coordinator to save THEM with play calls that play to their strengths. Maybe Joe Brady could have been successful as a rookie OC working with Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. Maybe Matt Stafford would have saved him if he wanted to come to the Panthers (he didn't for obvious reasons).

Joe Brady was a splash hire of a hot named coach ready to take the next step, but in the end, his failure falls on the people who hired him: Matt Rhule, Marty Hurney, and David Tepper.

I don't blame Joe Brady for the mess this team is in. He shouldn't have been here in the first place.

If you screw up at work, is it because your boss hired you?

On 12/2/2021 at 11:04 PM, slumdogmillionaire said:

So glad the panthers picked CB at 8 when that position is easier to retain (Djax) or obtain (Henderson/Gilmore) or find UDFA (Taylor) and we passed up Parsons, Fields, Slater.    So fuging stupid to pass on positions we needed and that are harder to obtain.  Horn is great but just the last 4 months showed us how it’s easier to get a DB than it would to get QB, LT, or a stud linebacker. 

So glad the panthers picked G at 182 in the 2000 draft.  Jeno Jones is ok, but a guard is so easy to find or retain.  We should have picked Tom Brady, who went at 199.  Typical panthers.

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

This season has been a rollercoaster not only in the win-loss column, but on the field as well.

We've got several guys on the team right now that have seemed to go back and forth between greatness and mediocrity.

So my question for the following names would be how good are they really, and why.

Starting with...

DJ MOORE

Was looking like the next big thing, but has struggled with drops as the season went on. Which version of Moore is the true one and which is the illusion?

BRIAN BURNS

Started off this year looking like an absolute nightmare for opposing offenses, but nobody seems to be all that scared of Burns anymore. In fact, teams are often running right at him and his "sack contest" with Haason Reddick has turned into a pretty one-sided affair. What happened, and can it be fixed?

DERRICK BROWN

The top pick in Matt Rhule's first draft has gone from a future star to being benched. Was Brown overrated to begin with or is the scheme just not doing any favors?

JEREMY CHINN

Another future star from last year who seems to have all but disappeared. Since being slotted into the free safety role, Chinn has still shown up in games but at nowhere near the level he did before. Is it a sophomore slump, is he miscast in his current role or is there something more to the story?

ROBBY ANDERSON

That nice extension he got looks like a boondoggle now. Unlike most of the others, Anderson didn't go from looking good initially to looking bad later. Heck, early on it felt like Anderson couldn't catch anything. These days, he's getting open and hauling in a few more than he did, but is that production worth what he's being paid?

JERMAINE CARTER

Carter was always mostly a "try hard" type player. He wound up starting primarily because the guy that was expected to anchor the middle linebacker spot soured his relationship with team leadership. At this point, Carter is probably a nicer story than he is a player, but can he still be what the team needs in the middle or is it time to move on?

PHIL SNOW

The only non-player on the list, but with a similar story to many others.  Snow looked like a genius in the first few games of the year, but more recent results (especially the last two weeks) have been decidedly less awesome. Did he get figured out or are his players letting him down?

______________________________

Sound off, folks. Who on this list is genuinely good and who's truly just...not?

This is an interesting topic that will challenge the critical thinking skills of a lot of people on here.  I've observed a number of our "fans" will see a play where a guy messed up or hear the announcer say something negative about a player and project it out over a guys season or career.  I think this will really separate the solid posters that contribute vs. the reactionary dummies.

DJ Moore - Solid possession receiver.  Already has as many receptions and TDs as all of last year with 5 games left.  Yards per catch is way down, probably a system issue as our OL just can't block anyone.  Would like to extend him, but not more than 10m per.  If he does not sign an extension in that ballpark next year, I start giving Marshall and Shi a lot more reps.

Burns - Seems to be less effective but numbers say different.  Last year: 9 sacks and 8 tackles for loss.  This year: 8 sacks and 12 tackles for loss already.  He will probably end up with 11-12 sacks and 15 TFLs this year.  Those kind of numbers easily net a 12-15m salary on the open market.  we got him for around 4m for a couple more years.

Brown - stud.  Has already matched his PD, SK, and Tackle numbers from last year with 5 games left.  He's there to absorb double teams and that's what he's doing despite getting "benched".  I've seen him labeled a mistake and a bust, a dead giveaway of football intelligence.

Jeremy Chinn - switched positions but still effective.  Had 117 tackles last year and is tracking toward 110 this year.  Last year he had 2 TFLs but already 5 this year.  Dude had 13 tackles just 2 weeks ago vs. Washington.  He has hardly disappeared, you only need to know where to look.

Carter - Solid career so far for a 5th rounder who is making under $1m this year.  Hope we can find similar production from one of our 5th rounders this year as I don't want to pay the guy.

Anderson - huge huge disappointment.  Tracking toward his worst season by far.  We seriously screwed up handing out that contract as he started to fade last year.  Probably the biggest blunder this FO has made in the last 2-3 years.  What were they thinking.

Again - thanks to Mr. Scot for starting this conversation. 

21 hours ago, 45catfan said:

A one-year loss.  Dude, you are acting like this is setting the franchise back decades. He's going to be an overpaid backup next season to finish up this deal.  We are not going to cut him because you incur dead cap AND have to fill the spot.  It was a stab at a potential franchise QB when Teddy didn't work out.  The 5th-year option came along with Darnold.  They chose to pick up the option which now doesn't look wise, but it's not a franchise busting mistake.  Dude's get overpaid all the time in this League, why you are so fascinated with Danrold is beyond me?  I mean if your so bored you want to continue on all day, I can go to OTC and cherry-pick tons of contracts that overvalued (I actually have to get some yard work done at some point).  Why? Teams take a risk at extending, re-working, offering new deals based off what they value that player to be for that organization.   Does that backfire?  Oh, heck yes, many times over.  Best case scenario at that point is take your lumps and move on.  LUCKILY for us it's just...one...season.

I admire your tenacity.  Darnold was a roll of the dice.  It doesn't appear it was a successful move at this point, but I think worth a roll.  He may be broken, but no way I just cut him.  He could  still be a backup.

I think everyone is so focused on the short term they often miss the big picture.  When Rhule was hired, he said it was a 5-year rebuild.  I don't remember anyone in here arguing that it should only take 1-2 years, but here we are.  

Last year I expected to win 2 games and we won 5.  This year I was expecting 7-8 wins and I believe we will be pretty close to that.  Meanwhile we've had a couple of good drafts, built a solid defense, have a few good options in our offensive skill positions, and our coach is learning the NFL game.  Draft 3 was clearly designed to build the OL, and I suspect that will be the focus.   My guess is we trade back and pick up a T and G on day 2.

Moving forward, I'd keep to the plan.  Draft OL and give the QB a chance.  The only change I'd make is to move on from Brady.  Let's get an offensive coordinator in here that can get something out of Darnold.

We will snag our QB of the future in Draft 4.  He will arrive on a nearly complete team.  He'll get his feet wet and gain some experience.

Then year 5 we start competing for championships.

I think we are still on schedule despite the bumps in the road.

Cam will start and play the first series.  PJ will come in and play 2nd and 3rd series.  Then it will be situational.

No way I give up picks, unless its a 6 or 7.  I might consider giving a 7th and paying half his salary.  Otherwise, he's my backup.

2 hours ago, hepcat said:

I think they're going to cut Darnold. Bridgewater played better than Darnold and they got rid of him. I don't see him playing another snap for the Panthers.

I think they dumped bridgwater because they didn't want Sam to feel the extra pressure.  That's all out the window if he's the backup.  Sure it will cost a lot, but why cut him then have to find someone else for a few mil.  Might as well keep him as backup to someone (hopefully Cam), then draft the heir apparent in the 2022 draft to learn under the starter (again, hopefully Cam).

I don't think they are too concerned with cap space to target free agents.  I think they prefer to build through the draft.  Therefore this is what I think will happen.

Gilmore, Reddick should be re-signed (10m each?)  

Haynes, Carter, and Burris will return if cheap (2-3m).

DJax and Jones will exit.  Djax should net us a future 3rd.

Our defense should remain strong with or without Djax if Horn returns and we keep Gilmore and Reddick.

If Cam holds up and plays well, he will be offered an extension.  Darnold will stick around as a backup.  No need to give up draft capital just to gain a few million in cap.

If Christensen looks decent, our OL suddenly looks ok on paper.  Moton-Brown-Elflein-MJ-Christensen looks decent with Erving as the utility lineman. 

RBs, WRs, and hopefully QB look good on paper.  

Obvious weaknesses include TE and OL.  Our first rounder could be in the 20's meaning if we keep the pick, we can really beef up one or the other.  Is this the year we draft our pass-catching TE or play it safe with the best G in the draft?  Even better if we can convert the 1st to a 2 and 3 and address both spots.

In addition to our first rounder, we have a 4, 5, 5, 6, 7.  Prime areas for Guards, LBs, and ST depth.

I really like the way they are building this team for the future.  

5 minutes ago, Toomers said:

He is showing they have invested 60M in the two years since Cam left. That 60M is gone as will every QB they paid. Then they have to get another QB. Dress it up any way you want but they still spent 60M so far. Nothing King stated was false. 

No, he's right.  For example, what if we trade Darnold next year for a 6th and agree to pay half his salary.  That's 9m we will not pay for him.

Not likely to happen at this point, but then again we got a 6th for TB.  

3 hours ago, Khaki Lackey said:

Yep. People like to forget that we went after Stafford and Watson. I thought Sam was worth a try. It's not like they gave up a "kings ransom" for him like some folks like to portray it. I think the biggest mistake that the staff made was thinking they could fix Sam's yips behind this Oline. They couldn't and now they're moving on from it.

Exactly.  he looked great for 3 weeks.  I just don't see long-term starter there.  he'll be a decent backup that can come in for 2-3 game stretches - but he is not a franchise QB.  I think we can all agree on that now.  He'll be grossly overpaid next year, but after that, he could be worth having around in a pinch for a game or three for a low price.

3 hours ago, Khaki Lackey said:

I still believe in Rhule, mainly because he seems very adaptable, acknowledges mistakes and moves on fairly quickly from them, and that's a breath of fresh air compared to the stubbornness from a lot of coaches. He and Fitts have revamped the roster and our defense and skill positions on offense look great. If they get the QB and OLine situation fixed, look out, because what they've done with the other 80% of the roster has been great. 

I wouldn't want to be judged based on one and a half years into a rebuild, so I extend him that leverage as far as my judgement goes.

This is a really good post.  Many fans were ready to fire him and complained about his lack of experience.  The argument was that coaches never do well coming out of college.  But he was given a 7-year contract for a reason.  Tepper and Rhule knew there would be some hiccups. Building a solid long-term winning program was never going to take a year or two.  He was starting with very little and was severely handicapped by his shitty GM.

I for one have no issues with anything they have done.  Bridgewater made a ton of sense when they signed him.  He wasn't brought in to win a superbowl in year 1, he was a professional that could make the offense competitive while he built his defense. He wasn't what they expected so they swallowed their pride and looked for an upgrade.  They looked everywhere but eventually had to settle for Darnold who until week 4, looked like a complete steal.  He's just too inconsistent and not mentally fit to be a starting QB (I think he'll have a long career as a backup).  

Signing Reddick, drafting Horn, Snagging CJ Henderson and Gilmore, re-signing Moton, picking up Jones and Fox - all brilliant.  I also loved the Elflein signing because I knew he would eventually replace Paradis at a reasonable salary.  Happened a little sooner than expected but here we are.  Likewise I think Erving was signed as a utility OL until their LT draft pick was ready.  That plan is coming along slower than they anticipated and not surprisingly, Erving is already hurt - which sometimes happens in pro football.  The only head-scratcher to me was signing Robbie Anderson long-term, but he looked much better this week.

But saving salary cap and snagging a fresh Cam might be the best move of them all.  Cam can be a bridge while we find our next guy.  If Cam is not overworked with 40 passes a game, he should last 1.5-2.5 years, which allows us to snag an LT next year and a QB the year after.  

We are on our way boys.  Enjoy.