grimesgoat

Cam will start and play the first series.  PJ will come in and play 2nd and 3rd series.  Then it will be situational.

No way I give up picks, unless its a 6 or 7.  I might consider giving a 7th and paying half his salary.  Otherwise, he's my backup.

2 hours ago, hepcat said:

I think they're going to cut Darnold. Bridgewater played better than Darnold and they got rid of him. I don't see him playing another snap for the Panthers.

I think they dumped bridgwater because they didn't want Sam to feel the extra pressure.  That's all out the window if he's the backup.  Sure it will cost a lot, but why cut him then have to find someone else for a few mil.  Might as well keep him as backup to someone (hopefully Cam), then draft the heir apparent in the 2022 draft to learn under the starter (again, hopefully Cam).

I don't think they are too concerned with cap space to target free agents.  I think they prefer to build through the draft.  Therefore this is what I think will happen.

Gilmore, Reddick should be re-signed (10m each?)  

Haynes, Carter, and Burris will return if cheap (2-3m).

DJax and Jones will exit.  Djax should net us a future 3rd.

Our defense should remain strong with or without Djax if Horn returns and we keep Gilmore and Reddick.

If Cam holds up and plays well, he will be offered an extension.  Darnold will stick around as a backup.  No need to give up draft capital just to gain a few million in cap.

If Christensen looks decent, our OL suddenly looks ok on paper.  Moton-Brown-Elflein-MJ-Christensen looks decent with Erving as the utility lineman. 

RBs, WRs, and hopefully QB look good on paper.  

Obvious weaknesses include TE and OL.  Our first rounder could be in the 20's meaning if we keep the pick, we can really beef up one or the other.  Is this the year we draft our pass-catching TE or play it safe with the best G in the draft?  Even better if we can convert the 1st to a 2 and 3 and address both spots.

In addition to our first rounder, we have a 4, 5, 5, 6, 7.  Prime areas for Guards, LBs, and ST depth.

I really like the way they are building this team for the future.  

5 minutes ago, Toomers said:

He is showing they have invested 60M in the two years since Cam left. That 60M is gone as will every QB they paid. Then they have to get another QB. Dress it up any way you want but they still spent 60M so far. Nothing King stated was false. 

No, he's right.  For example, what if we trade Darnold next year for a 6th and agree to pay half his salary.  That's 9m we will not pay for him.

Not likely to happen at this point, but then again we got a 6th for TB.  

3 hours ago, Khaki Lackey said:

Yep. People like to forget that we went after Stafford and Watson. I thought Sam was worth a try. It's not like they gave up a "kings ransom" for him like some folks like to portray it. I think the biggest mistake that the staff made was thinking they could fix Sam's yips behind this Oline. They couldn't and now they're moving on from it.

Exactly.  he looked great for 3 weeks.  I just don't see long-term starter there.  he'll be a decent backup that can come in for 2-3 game stretches - but he is not a franchise QB.  I think we can all agree on that now.  He'll be grossly overpaid next year, but after that, he could be worth having around in a pinch for a game or three for a low price.

3 hours ago, Khaki Lackey said:

I still believe in Rhule, mainly because he seems very adaptable, acknowledges mistakes and moves on fairly quickly from them, and that's a breath of fresh air compared to the stubbornness from a lot of coaches. He and Fitts have revamped the roster and our defense and skill positions on offense look great. If they get the QB and OLine situation fixed, look out, because what they've done with the other 80% of the roster has been great. 

I wouldn't want to be judged based on one and a half years into a rebuild, so I extend him that leverage as far as my judgement goes.

This is a really good post.  Many fans were ready to fire him and complained about his lack of experience.  The argument was that coaches never do well coming out of college.  But he was given a 7-year contract for a reason.  Tepper and Rhule knew there would be some hiccups. Building a solid long-term winning program was never going to take a year or two.  He was starting with very little and was severely handicapped by his shitty GM.

I for one have no issues with anything they have done.  Bridgewater made a ton of sense when they signed him.  He wasn't brought in to win a superbowl in year 1, he was a professional that could make the offense competitive while he built his defense. He wasn't what they expected so they swallowed their pride and looked for an upgrade.  They looked everywhere but eventually had to settle for Darnold who until week 4, looked like a complete steal.  He's just too inconsistent and not mentally fit to be a starting QB (I think he'll have a long career as a backup).  

Signing Reddick, drafting Horn, Snagging CJ Henderson and Gilmore, re-signing Moton, picking up Jones and Fox - all brilliant.  I also loved the Elflein signing because I knew he would eventually replace Paradis at a reasonable salary.  Happened a little sooner than expected but here we are.  Likewise I think Erving was signed as a utility OL until their LT draft pick was ready.  That plan is coming along slower than they anticipated and not surprisingly, Erving is already hurt - which sometimes happens in pro football.  The only head-scratcher to me was signing Robbie Anderson long-term, but he looked much better this week.

But saving salary cap and snagging a fresh Cam might be the best move of them all.  Cam can be a bridge while we find our next guy.  If Cam is not overworked with 40 passes a game, he should last 1.5-2.5 years, which allows us to snag an LT next year and a QB the year after.  

We are on our way boys.  Enjoy.

1 hour ago, TheCasillas said:

lol this thread. QBs play injured regularly in the NFL. Blaming the coaches for playing an injured QB.. as if this is something that is not regularly done in the NFL.

2018 - Aaron Rodgers Sprained MCL and Fractured Knee

2020 - Tom Brady torn MCL through the entire season

2020- Drew Brees fractured ribs

2021- Wentz two sprained ankle and a fractured foot 

2021 - Tua playing with fractured ribs

2021 - Baker Mayfield shoulder tear

 

This didnt even take more than 60seconds to dig up. I know I'm missing a bunch. This is normal. It's not like the coaching staff is holding a gun to the kid's head and saying "play or die."

If medical professionals are clearing these guys, and they elect to play... why would you blame the coaching staff? They aren't doctors and they damn for sure dont know these guy's bodies. This is what these players get paid millions of dollars to do. Play a violent sport every sunday for us keyboard warriors.

There is not enough pie in the world for you. 

Players want as much money they can get and to win a championship.  That's it.  If the panthers offer that opportunity, they will come here.

3 hours ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

I'm mad he wants to be like a franchise that has been caught cheating and never owned up to it multiple times, including while narrowly defeating US in a SB game. Yes, I am mad he wants to be like the team that cheated us out of a SB victory.

Game won on last second FG, Patriots later found to have been illegally recording opponents practices to gain unfair advantage over an extended period of time, including during their SB win against us. Goodell orders all tapes destroyed. Why would he, AS THE INVESTIGATING PARTY, do that unless the tapes showed something really damaging to the league?

Like clear evidence the outcome of a Super Bowl was tainted?

Yeah I'm mad our HC wants us to be like that team.

good god, when he said “They’re a team we want to be", I doubt he was talking about having a reputation for cheating.  My guess is, and I'm just spit-balling here, is that he meant he wanted to be a tough, defensive minded team that was a threat to win it all each year.  And I'm ok with that.

Or he was just buttering up the opposition, as every coach does.  No need to give them bulletin board material unnecessarily.

But I could be wrong.  Perhaps he desires to be an surly douchebag that will cheat to win at any cost.  He just doesn't come across that way so far. 

16 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Look, I've been the optimist around here for years and years. Just, right now, I'm not feeling it. I just can't believe in the guy, the process and what he's building. There are tons of excuses for why it's not working out, but we're pretty much down to a bare cupboard here. 

We are honestly looking at sending in a former Temple/semi-pro QB to stand up to a Bill Belichick team. Our starter would make a passable emergency second string QB and Walker couldn't walk on and win a jersey at many Division III college teams. 

We have no offensive line, just four turnstiles and a hard corner to turn on the right side. We picked up two veteran starters and drafted two folks they called "great prospects" and have actually managed to post a different lineup every damned week for the o-line. None of the eight iterations have worked. At all.

Our lead TE this year was the third string TE here for the rest of his tenure in a Panther uniform -- he got the starting gig not because he earned it but because he was the last one of the experienced guys left. We've got a rookie with some promise at TE2 but they don't seem to use him as much as you'd think.

Our WRs have the dropsies. Not just one of them, but all of them. Every single one of them. Our star RB/WR pulled a hammy and he's been harder for the coach to get a date with than Katy Perry. We do have a pretty good rookie RB2, but our OC only calls running plays in protest or when the HC threatens to take away his WiFi privileges. 

Our defense is mighty stout, as long as we have Shaq Thompson out there. If he's not there, then opponents RBs literally run over us again and again. We have 74 DBs on the team. 

We're on our third kicker since the start of training camp and our third punter. We have one guy on Special Teams that seems to understand the game of football and it's not the ST coach. 

On the management front, our GM is "in on every deal" but somehow can't manage to actually secure one for positions of need. He will trade away a TE for a DB who may or may not like football anymore, and draft picks for guys who are immediately on the IR. He saw a decent guard from KC head to the Jets and didn't even raise a finger to get him. QB concussed and unable to play with no one to step in? No trades, no pickups of vets sitting at home on their couch... not even a Vinnie Testaverde call.

Yeah, it was just a press conference. It reminded me of one held by Dan Quayle. Just a guy who seems to be in over his head and repeating the mantra of how cool it is to be here and how he gets to see some of the great coaches he admires each week. 

I just can't believe in him anymore. 

I realize you've given up on Rhule, but most of what you listed has nothing to do with him.  CMC and Shaq being out, Darnold concussed, WRs dropping balls, Punter getting hurt, Kicker suddenly sucking. 

He's been here less than 2 years.  When he got here, we had one of the most inept GMs in football and the team had completely quit.  He had to figure out which guys were worth keeping and which ones needed to go in order to change the culture.  He's completely overturned the roster in two offseasons.  We have something like 12 guys left from the Rivera era.   

He's also had to deal with crippling dead cap - $54m in 2020 and $49m this year.

If you go back and look at our 2019 roster, every position group was an area of need.  LB was ok, until Luke decided to retire.  So he's addressed the DL (Jones, Brown, YGM, Fox), LB (Reddick, Luvu), Secondary (Gilmore, Horn, Chinn, Burris, Bouye, Henderson), WR (Robbie, Marshall), TE (Arnold, Tremble).  He's added some talent to the RB room and tried to address QB with mixed results. 

The only group he hasn't been able to address so far is the OL.  I don't think for a minute he or fitterer thought they were in good shape there.  They just didn't have the resources to address this with everything else.  That's why they said they were looking at a 5-year rebuild as opposed to a 1-year or 2-year rebuild.

I suspect the OL will be the top priority in 2022.  Then maybe QB in 2023 if we don't snag watson in the off-season.

13 minutes ago, Captroop said:

OBJ is a head case WR the likes of which we haven't seen since TO. And a head case WR is terrible for any QB, especially one who is still developing. Terrible for Mayfield, and butt-fuging AWFUL for Sam.

I agree.  I think this is why they moved him when they drafted Daniel Jones.  Gettleman got a lot of poo for that trade, but now it looks like he won it.

3 minutes ago, CanadianCat said:

I think the plan has always been to build the team then plunk in the QB last.

We have taken hail mary shots at the QB position but have not dedicated to a player.

If they would work we would be years a head but I dont think the plan is to draft a guy until 2023. 

 

I think you are exactly right.

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, the absurd amount of drops and the fact that it is just about everyone is what makes me less inclined to put ALL the blame on the guys dropping the ball. Don't get me wrong....you gotta make those catches, but the fact that it is just about EVERYONE??? Something is clearly up. Obviously a chunk of that is Darnold's poor pass placement and poor timing, but it seems to go beyond that, as well.

 

I think a lot of those mis-timed plays have to do with the pocket collapsing so quickly.  The ball is getting there sooner or off-target because Darnold is getting blown up so quickly.  Fix the OL and these WRs will suddenly know how to catch again.  Unfortunately, we will not be able to fix this OL until the next offseason or two.

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, this fairly inevitable. Especially when you saw the "investments" in a struggling offense from 2020 of Sam Darnold, Cam Erving, Pat Elflein, Brady Christensen, Deonte Brown, Terrace Marshall, Shi Smith, Chuba Hubbard and Tommy Tremble.

I mean....there are definitely some potential pieces for the future there but not a single name on that list has made a meaningful upgrade to our offense this season. In most cases, it was lateral or a downgrade. That isn't the path to success on that side of the ball.

So, for all their success defensively, what have they really added to the offense in two offseasons? Basically just Robby Anderson, right? Because Moton, CMC and DJ Moore were already here. 

I think all of the rookies are keepers.  Most, if not all, will play meaningful minutes next year.

Christensen, Marshall, and Tremble will all start.  Hubbard and Smith will play key backup roles.  Jury is still out on Brown.  The mistake was believing a bunch of draft picks were going to come in and make a difference right away.  When has that ever happened to any team ever?  But with the Panthers being so mediocre this year, these guys should get some valuable on-field time/experience.  Next year we'll see what they can really do.

I can be patient.

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, it is amazing how inept we are on offense given the talent level. 

It just shows how much a bad QB and bad OL will do to tank a team. 

What talent level are you referring to?  We have an elite RB that has missed over half the season, a sub-par OL, a reclamation QB, a rookie TE, and two above average receivers that have forgotten how to catch.

Get CMC back and upgrade a couple of spots on the OL and I think things begin to look rosier.  Until then, we are a ground and pound team trying to win close defensive battles.  I say get on board.

1 hour ago, Toomers said:

Paradis is 9.2M

Reddick is 4M

Elf and Erving both have 7M cap hits for probable backups. 
 
And no 2nd or 3rd pick…..yet. At least not until they devalue their top pick. No QB. Need 4 OL. A DT. A LB. A FS. Another 40+M in dead cap. And it’s all on the current staff. 

Paradis is 8.2.

I believe the void years are to spread the dead money over multiple years.  We must account for 12.2, but only 5.1 in 2022.  Then another 5.1 in 2023.  Then 1.0 in each of 2024 and 2025.

4 minutes ago, Toomers said:

Plus 13.2M for Paradis and Reddicks void years.

And Darnold will get 18.5M to either backup here or somewhere. That will be dead or useless cap space. 
 

Erving(5.6M) and Elflein(4.6M) will need to be addressed. 
 

Just those put them just about where they were the last two years. 

I believe its only 5m in 2022 for Paradis/Reddick.  

The Darnold situation is tougher.  I think he will be here in a lame-duck fashion.  Panthers don't save anything for cutting him, and I don't believe anyone will come calling.  If they can dump him without giving up more than a 6th or 7th, it would definitely be worth it.  But you still gotta find a QB at some point.  I'd keep him around and see what he can do with a better OL.

Erving and Elflein are not breaking the bank and will be useful depth.  Add a 2nd round C or G, and get Christiansen and Brown up to speed and those two might be serviceable.  I'd rather those guys be our depth or spot starters than Miller, Daley, or Scott.    

4 hours ago, SetfreexX said:

TL;DR -- We are on schedule

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

The 3-0 start had us all hype, happy, excited, and to me that is what has made the last 4 games more painful than they should be. However, most seasoned and realistic fans could see in the off-season / post Darnold trade / post draft that we were probably a 6-9 win team. We were coming off a 5-11 year and had just traded for a HUGE question mark at QB.

With that in mind let's look at some changes considering we are 1 season and 7 games into the rebuild...more so on the offense...

QB - 

Teddy Bridgewater >>> Sam Darnold -- This is a net negative IMO, Darnold has more talent, but he's a worse QB (TBF and I'm not a TB fan / apologist -- we probably beat PHI / MIN / NYG with Teddy - Darnold has proven to be inept at reading coverage)

HB - 

CMC & Mike Davis >>> CMC is on IR, Chuba is not matching Davis' production but I can give him a bit of a pass as a 4th round rookie behind a bad OL who has still flashed on occasion; he just needs to work on his brick hands at the moment, as big as Freeman is, his pass pro is lacking but he is a competent runner.

FB - 

Alex Armah >>> Giovanni Ricci -- Armah is the better pure blocker, Ricci is more versatile -- We should have kept Armah

WR - 

DJ, Robbie, Curtis >>> DJ, Robbie - DJ has been for the most part what we were expecting, Robbie is ''trying'' too hard to live up to the money by pressing to make plays, and Darnold's terribly inconsistent accuracy isn't helping his receivers. TMJ due to Darnold's ineptitude has been limited & recently concussed, and Shi Smith just played his first 2 games of the season in weeks 6 & 7.

TE - 

Ian Thomas, Chris Manhertz >>> Ian Thomas, Tommy Tremble -- I think we're clearly better here, Tommy already has a couple TD's on his young resume, his athleticism shows regularly. To me Joe Brady needs to call more plays to get them involved with CMC absent, and the attention on DJ / Robbie. Darnold needs to look to them more. 

OL - 

Okung (Trent Scott), Schofield (Chris Sneed) >> With Erving, & Elflein you could almost call it a wash due to how many games Okung missed, with Elflein out guys like Daley have been exposed so much so that we are down to the 3rd stringer in Jordan, Miller seems worse than last year as most of us were okay with his return. Paradis, and Moton are the only consistency we have, Christensen is a rookie and learning, and Brown is now on IR. Overall I think in time this will come together, we just have to improve the Guard play on both sides. 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think it is safe to say the defense is much better, a complete turnaround, gone is the 3-3-5 and in comes a more traditional 3-4 alignment from our base, and most of the guys from last year remain (Burns / Brown / Gross-Matos / Shaq / Jackson / Chinn / Burris)

FA Additions:

DaQuan Jones, Morgan Fox, Haason Reddick

Trade acquisitions:

Stephon Gilmore, C.J. Henderson

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I know this 4 game skid, and potentially one longer than that are beyond frustrating and take most of us back to 2007 - 2010, where we faltered around a bit back as we attempted to replace Delhomme -- Moore, Clausen, Pike, St. Pierre to now attempting to replace Cam with Bridgewater, and Darnold to date. 

I write this to say, honestly what was been done with the defense through a season was / is impressive, and with an active body at GM, it is likely we will continue to improve the roster as free agency and cap space for the first time in a long time will afford us some opportunities to upgrade the offensive line in free agency with more proven targets.

I know a lot of you are concerned with our draft capitol, but we still have:

1st / 4th (HOU) / 5th (JAX) / 5th / 6th / 6th (LVR) / 7th (TEN)

That is still 7 total picks, it is still to be determined if we stand pat with our first or look to trade down (my money is on trading down), if so we will make up for missing picks, but do not forget that ''we ADDED 11 rookies this past draft'', so we are not hurting in the youth / depth departments aside from a couple positions, the likely-hood of a rookie 2nd or 3rd rounder starting is low; they're usually contributors year one aside from the gems that fall (like Chinn). 

Point is, we have options, and we have a GM that seems capable, this was never supposed to be ''our season / time''. The expectation was always some steady improvement in S1 / S2 of the rebuild with us being in position to make some credible noise in S3. 

I do believe we are on pace for that, so keep your heads up, and #KeepPounding 

I appreciated the optimism and I believe they are on schedule for the rebuild.  They got a little ahead of themselves out of the gate, but if you look at the roster and who is signed for 2022, there is room for optimism.

I don't think we will be very active in Free Agency.  They will use most of their 44m is cap to sign their own guys - Gilmore, Luvu, Burris, maybe Reddick and Jones.  Jackson and Carter will probably walk and we'll pick up some comp picks.

Almost everyone that's decent on offense is signed through 2022.  DJ will be extended and Paradis will be gone.  I believe that's why Erving and Elflein were given longer contracts - they knew this would take more than 2 drafts to fix.

They will try to turn their 1 and 6 into 2 and 3 and use them on a C and LB.  Look for an OG in the 4th, a some combination of DT, T, TE, RB, K over the rest of the draft.  This would complete the roster turnover into Rhule's vision.

QB is still an issue, but we really don't know how good or bad darnold is with this crappy OL and without CMC.  We may look to upgrade QB in free agency, but I think they will just bring in some grizzled vet like Flacco or Foles for competition.  The goal being to make a wildcard.

I think 2023 will be when the seat for Rhule and company may begin to heat.

7 wins in 2021.  10 wins in 2022.  11+ wins in 2023 and beyond.  

1 hour ago, pantherj said:

It's supposed to be a package deal for a lineman and Gilmore will be in it, but only if the other team takes the bait. They're not saying the details now and it's rumored the info if leaking from one of our scouts. Could be total bs.

Wonder if Carolina could flip Jackson instead of Gilmore for some OL help.

When your first 3 words are "hear me out", you might consider not saying it.

Came in for the pile of poo.  Was not disappointed.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but it reminds me of when Benjamin went down and Cam had to adapt and spread the ball around.