3 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

PFF grades:

CJ - 53

 

2022 3rd round corners

Martin Emerson - 76

Cordale flott - 59

Marcus jones - 71

 

 

You were saying?

Is this a joke?  Are these YTD? 

Flott hasn't played since week 3.  In 2 games played he's had 60 snaps, been targeted 6 times w/ 5 completions.  Yards per completion: 13.0.  5 tackles on the year.

Jones isn't much different.  Played in 4 games, 75 snaps, targeted 8 times w/ 2 completions.  Yards per completion 22.5.  4 tackles total.

Meanwhile Henderson has logged 347 snaps, been targeted 39 times w/29 completions at 11.1 per.  He has 33 tackles and 1 Int.  Not bad for a 3rd rounder.

We watch Henderson play and we get frustrated because he's a top ten pick.  But it is a mistake to judge Henderson as a 1st rounder.  He was clearly over-drafted.  But as a third rounder, he's pretty decent and should improve.  I have no problem with trading for him.

1 minute ago, Toomers said:

We are. What date does that start? When Rhule was fired? This year? Last year?

Trading Robbie: 16M for 6 games and a6th and 7th

Trading CMC- good trade

Turming down that Burns package of picks. Horrible beyond belief if that offer is valid. 
 

What other specific moves? 

Dude - I'm done engaging with you.  I provided a list of the last 25 or so moves over the past 12-18 months.  His resume is not perfect, but it looks pretty good to me.  Getting anything for Robbie was a huge win.  Getting a 5th for Daley was nice and unexpected.  Trading CMC was good value.  He's picked up some nice core pieces in the last two drafts that could pay off.  

Is he perfect?  Of course not.  If that Burns trade was legit and he did not pull the trigger, that looks awful.  That was the first time I thought he really screwed up.  We'll  have to wait and see.  But he has done enough to convince me he knows what he is doing and can build something good.

15 minutes ago, Toomers said:

Yes I read it. And wondered how he got credit/blame for 2021 draft and not the 2021 trades and FA and deciding options. We can go with TMJ over Humphrey if it fits better. 

Humphrey would have been nice in hindsight.  But at the time we were rolling with Paradis and had Elflein as a backup.  I think they had their eye on one of the OTs.

Many thought TMJ was a steal - 6'3", 200, 4.40 speed.  I saw lots of mocks of him going in the first.  Getting him at 59 was great value in my opinion.

Of course I have no evidence of this, but I think he was a Fitt draftee that was going to step in for Anderson in year two.  My guess is Rhule went to bat for Robbie and we end up with a ridiculous overpay and TMJ riding the pine.  I really think Fitt had the right idea - but Rhule fuged it up.

But again, I'm not going to defend his first really early moves.  He steps in the building with few resources/assets and is working with a complete dumbass.  I'm sure there were better options than Elf/Erving that everyone always bitches about, but these were cheap and flexible options.  Meanwhile he's tasked with getting rid of Bridgewater because he didn't fit the "brand" and he hurt someone's feelings and finding a QB out of thin air.

We should evaluate his later moves, particularly the ones we know were not Rhule's dumb ideas.

10 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

As I see it, green is good, red is bad and grey is neutral or too early.

Green-12

Red-5

Neutral-4

The good outweighs the bad, even if the neutral moves are added in.

I'm still bullish on TMJ.  Since he started playing, he looks pretty good.

3 minutes ago, Toomers said:

What about Darnold trade and 5 th year option?

Robbies Extension? 

Drafted a backup LS over well…anyone. 
 

  

Did you read the post?  I specified recent moves over the past 12-18 months that he surely had a hand in and purposefully eliminated moves that did not matter (such as 6th round picks).  No one will convince me he thought an Anderson extension was a good idea. That undoubtedly came from Rhule. 

17 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Nothing here pisses me off. It’s a message board and you aren’t the king. I’m sure they do hold more weight. Are those reports anything but fluff after the fact? How about all the Wilks has made the team tough again fluff before we got our ass handed to us in the worst half I’ve even seen us play.

I’m still waiting for you to give me one really good move Fitterer has done. You said earlier in the off-season that Fitterer had taken over yet you still blame Rhule for everything. You keep adding in the old Temple and Baylor thing but we’ve got way more moves than those and probably the best “value” move we made was bringing in Reddick which I think we can tie directly to Rhule/Snow.

I'm late to the party, but I value your opinion.  Without getting into drafting a long snapper or not drafting your super-crush Trey Smith, let's take a look at the major moves Fitt has made in the last 12-18 months - primarily dealing with starters.  There may be more, and I'm sure you will let me know, but I feel like these are the main moves.  Tell me specifically which ones you think were fireable offences.  

• Extend Moton.
• Extend DJ.
• Extend Jackson (i think that one was bad)
• Extend Luvu
• Draft Horn
• Draft TMJ
• Draft Tremble
• Draft Christenson
• Draft Icky
• Draft Corral
• Sign Woods
• Sign Ionidas
• Sign Corbett
• Sign Hecker
• Sign Foreman
• Sign Bozeman
• Trade for Shenault
• Trade for Henderson (not looking good)
• Trade for Mayfield
• Trade away Anderson
• Trade away CMC
• Did not trade Burns for 2 first and second (if true, this one has to go in the bad column).

I just don't see a lot of really really bad moves on the list.  The only things I have a problem with are Jackson, Burns, and maybe Henderson - although I don't think he has been as bad as people think.

3 minutes ago, stbugs said:

And it was a great strategy. Tank year 1 and you are studly after a couple years and godly 3-5 years out. 

until you have to pay for all these studs...

6 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

That's just not how grading assets in the NFL works. Not when one bad season can get your butt fired as a coach or GM Outside of a small handful of truly entrenched guys.

And how are draft picks going to "appreciate"? We aren't talking about stocks or bonds here.

Same concept.  If a draft choice today is valued as a second, and next year the same pick is valued as a first, what would you call it?  That pick is just sitting around gaining value - just like an investment.  The gain could be volatile depending on how the underlying company (Rams) performs, but you should still see a gain in value.

I understand present values and the time value of money.  The question is, can you use two future firsts to invest in order to surpass Brian Burns' net (after cost) production over the next 8-10 years?

I bet a good GM could.

22 minutes ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

 

I respectively disagree with Verge.

That's is their value if you need to cash the assets right now.  But they are an investment.  They will appreciate over time.  And right now we have a little time as this is a lost season. 

10 minutes ago, saX man said:

I wouldn't say we'd be judging him too soon--he's a 5 year vet UDFA with a sub 57% completion rate to speak to in college and under 58% for his NFL career so far.  He's just not the answer.   

I agree he's probably not the answer.  And his college career is sub-par.  But when he starts, he's not too bad.  He's getting better - we should give him the rest of the season.  I think he is a solid tank commander.

1 minute ago, *FreeFua* said:

I’m on the fence 

Yeah I’d love the two first rounders but then I see sh!t like this…

Plus I remember how long it took us to find our LT and think I don’t really want to do it all over with a pass rusher 

Use all our assets for a QB this offseason and go

So draft Anderson or Myles in 2023.  They will make an impact right away.  Then we have 4 first rounders in 2024-2025 to move around and get our franchise QB.  It provides tremendous flexibility to get the guy we want.

What if Young starts falling due to size concerns.  We would have quite a bit of ammunition between our seconds and 4 future firsts to make something happen (if he is our guy).  

21 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

No what you said is stupid logic.  Who know what happens in 2025? You don't value potential which can vary from a number 1 pick to a number 32 pick the same as a proven commodity. Burns cost us a top 10 pick and has been everything we thought he would be.  He has stayed healthy and is the best DE we have.  Future picks are always valued less than current picks and should be.  While we aren't a player or two away we also don't need a complete rebuild. He is a core of the defense and teams gameplan against him. That is worth more than what we could get years from now.

clarification - Burns was the 16th pick.

PJ walker has started 5 games in the NFL.  Here are his numbers in those starts:

91-137 66% 979 yds. 5 TDs, 4 Ints, 5 Sks, 3-2 record.

Here are the numbers for a certain all-everything QB in his first 5 games in the NFL (pie for the first to name him):

93-169 55% 1,142 yds., 3 Tds 12 Ints, 15 sks, 1-4 record.

The point is not to suggest these two are destined for the same things (as some will surely assume right away).  The point is that 5 games in is a little early to decide whether someone sucks and will always suck. The second guy improved significantly over the next several years. Chances are PJ isn't a long-term solution, but good lord we're 5 games in.  There is a learning curve in this league.

I'd do the deal.

We're probably picking 3rd. Stroud and Young will likely be gone.

So instead of picking Levis/Hooker way too early, we grab Anderson or Murphy.  Instant Burns replacement on a rookie deal.

Then we can see if Corral is any good, keep developing PJ, and have a ton of ammo for a QB in 2024. 

1 hour ago, SetfreexX said:

In my mind October 10th should be a national holiday after the firing or Rhule, at the time I told myself I don't care what happens the rest of this season; I was just happy he was finally gone. So many people here, and in other social spaces that don't casually follow the team could see he was holding us back, this was fairly obvious end of year one, and blatantly obvious by the time he started throwing Cam under the bus to prop Darnold, and in an attempt to shift blame. (This isn't a Cam thread)

I think we have all seen a new ''life'' in the team since the change, and I'm even more surprised than I expected to be as Wilks has the team ''competing'' and that's something we were not doing, and that alone has made the last two games worth watching. I'll give LAR a pass as it was right after the firing; with likely little time to have an offensive plan in place; or perhaps in retro it was a CMC showcase for bidders 

Either way all of that has led to a new core, so let's explore who that currently is: (Core Players in my estimation in BOLD)

QB - None, Matt Corrall is intersting, and PJ is slinging it, but all signs point to taking a QB in the 1st

HB - None, however I'd like to see D'Onta Foreman retained, I was excited when we signed him but was frustrated at the absence under Rhule, Chuba is a nice piece, but he still can't catch

WR - DJ Moore, this is obvious, I'm inclined to include Terrace Marshall, as imagine that the 3rd of the LSU trio who was a 1st round prospect outside of the knee concerns has looked legit as his snaps have increased, again Rhule...wtf was he doing!? It was also nice to see redzone fade pass attempts to a guy that's a clean 6'3''. Also, anyone notice Shi Smith (former 6th) has been featured less, he's been on the field, but the targets are down since Rhule left. 

TE - None, I remain intrigued by Tommy Tremble, he seems to get a little more involved downfield than Thomas, and has more TDs over the past two seasons than Thomas. I'd like to see us to commit to Tommy as the starter and let Thomas continue to be TE #2. But I sweat McAdoo gonna get Ian that one TE screen a game. 

OL - This is where I kind a have to pinch myself...Ickey Ekowonu has been all we thought in the run game, and even more in pass pro after getting acclimated, Brady Christensen has settled in at LG, meanwhile the C we all felt was better Bradley Bozeman has played well now that he's on the field. Austin Corbett, and Taylor Moton are my other two core OL pieces. Arguments are definitely available to add Brady, and Boze to this, but Boze is on a one year deal, and I hope we are able to keep him, while Brady has performed right around average, no egregious issues, but nothing that stands out about him. If this was our starting five next year I'd be fine with that as well. 

Total Offensive Core Players - 4 out of 11 (Dj, Ickey, Corbett, Moton)

As you can see we still have a lot to do, but there are some promising pieces here as well (Foreman, TMJ, Tremble, Brady, Boze). I will concede that I subscribe to the belief that inserting a talented rookie into this mix could see us competing at a higher more consistent level. I like PJ and that throw last Sunday....sheesh, but we have to be honest he's not the long-term answer; and likely neither is Matt. I suspect he could have looked better in the pre-season as it should have been ''at that time at least'' Baker with the 1's, Matt with the 2's, as you don't trade for Baker to ''compete'', Sam with the 3's because we'd seen enough and PJ as the odd man out. Wasted reps all around in my opinion the way it was handled. 

Good writeup. 

I'd include TMJ as a core piece.  It was criminal how we failed to develop him until now.

With the way the offensive line is playing, I'm coming around to Young in the first despite his size.

Re-sign Bozeman and Foreman.  Then get a big pass-catching TE with one of our seconds.  Add C/G in the 4th and we'll be a playoff team in 2024 and a superb owl contender in 2025.

22 minutes ago, raleigh-panther said:

Per this. Panthers are three behind Lions and Texans 

2023 NFL Draft Order

 Mock Draft player rankings updated recently

PICK	TEAM	REC	PCT	GB	SOS
3	http://d2vxsvwtygpurr.cloudfront.net/nfl/car.png   Carolina	2-6	.250	0.5	.439

I'd love that tankathon draft right now.

Too early to tank.

If we win 8 or 9 games, that means we've won 7 or 8 out of our last 12.  That will be as good a run as about anyone in the NFC, meaning we should expect a competitive playoff game at home.

We'd probably still lose and pick 19th, but with our core in place and the picks we now have, I think we'll be in position to continue to fine-tune.  There will be a good QB in the 10-20 range and we will have ammunition to move up a few spots to get him.

It will be nice to play meaningful games in December again and put off the draft talk to January or so.

Just need SF to continue to lose.

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Good. I've been one of the few people saying Shaq absolutely needs to be shopped. I honestly don't even care what we get in return. We just need to unload that contract. He's a JAG and he's paid like a HOFer. I honestly don't know if he's even tradable.

 

Of course he's tradeable.  I'm sure toomers will correct me if i'm wrong, but a team getting shaq will be on the hook for about a million this year.  That's all.  Next year's base salary is not guaranteed.  If the team didn't want to pay that, they could cut him at no cost or re-work the contract.

We're the one that's on the hook for all the dead money this year and next.

Gotta be worth at least a 3rd for a contending team to rent a very good LB for about a mil.

1 hour ago, panthersgreenville said:

Im as thrilled as anybody that Rhule is gone, beyond ecstatic. I am seeing a lot of expectations from the fan base that Wilks is possibly the answer and he will even do so well that he becomes our new HC, don’t get me wrong I like him, I love the story and I would love to see that happen. 

But we have to look at facts, we fired Rhule and replaced him with a HC that has a 3-13 record as a HC, starting a 3rd string QB who has 2 TDs 8 ints his time here, with a defense that is banged up and playing under a brand new interim DC.

On top of all this, we are facing a Rams team in a West Coast game across the country that is desperate to be back at .500 before they have their bye week. We are currently 10 point underdogs according to Vegas and they are rarely wrong.

My guess is it will look promising and close the first QTR or 2 but will get out of control fast. 

7 minutes ago, saX man said:

HMMMMMM....Who can we sell high in a contract year that is a highly perceived talent yet not a dominant all-phases type?  That we may be tepid to extend but could put a good team over the top??

Brian Burns

And who I think makes sense:

The Baltimore Ravens

Their current defense would benefit huge from him especially given their scheme and Burns' versatility in his standing strong side role. They are depleted, had to sign an over the hill JPP, are competing for a SB, I think they'd give up a nice sum for Burns.  Especially given the amount of players they just drafted, they had accrued a ton of picks last year and didn't use them to trade or anything, so they are a bit in a luxury of young hand picked talent.  Have all their picks moving forward plus an extra 5th in 23. 

We are also going to be hard strapped to pay the man, especially given our cap situation.  Send him somewhere where he can immediately sign an extension with.   

CAR receives: 2023 1st, 2023 4th, 2024 2nd

BAL receives: Brian Burns

 

I think our roster is pretty decent, but we need a mini-rebuild.

I'm on board with trading Burns.  I think the $16m hit next year plus the huge money he will cost after that will be difficult to maneuver with our cap situation.  I think your compensation is a little light.  I'd want a 2023 1st and 4th and a  2024 1st.  We need to start getting Barno some reps and bring on the blitzes.

I'd also move Donte Jackson for whoever would give me a 2nd. 

I'd target Higgins a ton over the next two weeks.  Give the guy some stats, then trade him for a 6th. 

Same with Robbie Anderson.  Only problem with Robbie is I think there will be a dead cap hit of around 10m this year that we will need to absorb.  But with Robbie and Burns off the books, our cap situation looks pretty decent in 2023.  Also there is addition by subtraction here and gives TMJ more reps.

This gives us 1,1,2,2,3,5,6,6 to rebuild going into next year.  Draft a QB (top 5), DE (20-30), TE (31-35), and CB, S, RB/WR, DT, G, T and we'll be in decent shape.  Probably win 5-7 games.

Then in 2024 we'll have all of our picks plus the extra 1st to really fine-tune things and a year's experience for all the newbies.  Consistent winning will begin in 2024.

16 minutes ago, hepcat said:

Dude what

Nice win boys. Suicide watch for a few. 

1 hour ago, frankw said:

Right? This place should be one giant block party after we had less than 50 yards of total offense for an entire half and let Jacoby Brissett light us up at home.

Not sure who is lighting up.  Brissett was 18-34 for 147 with a QBR of 38.1.  We know you hate the Panthers but let's have a little perspective.

56 minutes ago, coffee said:

Impressive!  I did not think anyone would get the 2nd reference!

My father hung me on a hook once, ONCE.