AU-panther

Imagine if we had traded back from #1 and got our 2nd Qb choice???

Sometimes not getting who you want is a good thing

Also trading back doesn’t have to mean falling way back.  What if it’s your turn to draft and you have 4-5 players all graded equally.  Moving back a few spots and picking up a later pick isn’t a  a bad thing.  
 

Also I like this idea of picking up future year draft picks.  Teams tend to devalue those.  I would much prefer a future 2nd than a current 3rd.  It’s like earning interest on your draft picks.  Nobody has the patience to do it that first time.  If you did it every year you would really just give up that one year and gain a free round in each subsequent year. 

This is why its comical when people disparage fans for an opinion or thinking they could do better.  Granted, your good front office people are smarter than most fans, but anyone can be terrible.

I could take a big board list from ESPN or PFF and let my dog paw at it and he would at least be terrible also.

50 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

The Broncos definitely did and the Falcons have just backed up a Brinks truck for a 36 year old coming off a torn achilles tendon. 

I’m not saying we shouldn’t.  Broncos and Pittsburg moved on from QBs that they didn’t trade the farm for.  We gave up so much for young that they feel committed to him. 

4 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

Broncos, Steelers, Washington - all decisively moving on from QBs who they deemed not good enough.

The Panthers - let's run it back with Young, he needs more time.

And that's why we suck.

Those teams didn’t mortgage their futures 

Who last longer in the league? Pickett or Howell? Just shows the talent difference year from year in the draft.  

We were 29th in the league in points allowed, shouldn’t be hard to improve. 
 

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-points-per-game

19 minutes ago, Tbe said:

The odds of a 2nd rounder to develop into a starter is 33%. A high 2nd is more like 40%.

The odds of a 3rd drops to 16%.

The math doesn’t favor those trades.

Curious to know where you are getting those numbers from?  Have always been interested in the real numbers behind drafting. 

Anyone notice how absent some people are from this thread???

13 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I'm honestly not certain he's the best WR prospect THIS year.

In the last 10 years? I mean, 10 years ago Sammy Watkins was a STUD prospect. Nearly 1500 yards and 12 TDs his last year at Clemson. Those are the types of guys everyone forgets about in there discussions. The "can't miss prospects" that miss. He went #4 over Mike Evans at #7. Amari Cooper went #4 overall the following year. 1700 yards and 16 TDs his last year at Bama STUD. Hell, a lot of folks thought Kevin White who went #7 that year was an even better prospect. BUST.  Corey Davis went #5 overall in 2018. 2021 had the previously mentioned Chase at #5 with Waddle right behind him at #6. 

Harrison's production just doesn't scream generational prospect. Numerous highly drafted guys in the last decade have put up considerably better numbers against similar competition. And I just don't see game breaking speed from him when I watch him play. I "just" see a typical WR that gets drafted in the top 10. A damn good prospect but not someone who is displaying otherworldly talent.

I agree that generational is a huge term but you are naming guys from 9-10 years ago to come up with guys that “might” be better prospects.
Also you are looking at this as a fan and heavily weighing production.  Think more in terms of evaluation like a scout.
they aren’t looking at players and ranking them based on who had the most yards.  Think about grading these guys on a variety of variables, Height, speed, hands, route running, rac,  production, level of competition.

i can see how he is one of the higher rated WRs in the last 10-15 years, that doesn’t guarantee him anything at the next level. 

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I honestly don't think he's a better prospect than Chase was.

I agree that chase was a really good prospect but even if you think chase was better, which a lot don’t, that’s one.  Name another one in the previous 10 years. 
Harrison is taller and from an evaluation /scouting standpoint he probably grades out a little higher than even chase.   You might have to go back to the Jones/Green year. 

6 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I think he's a helluva WR prospect but I don't understand the generational talk. Would anyone trade a Chase or Jefferson for him? Okay then, how is he generational?

Hell, I'm not certain he's the best WR in this class.

People tend to use the “generational” label when a player would be the top pick at their position over the course of multiple years. 
If you out every receiver from the last 10 drafts in the same class he might go 1st out of all of them.  

3 hours ago, Teddy2SuperBowlHeartBreaks said:

I was thinking maybe a 2025 first and a second this year. Something like that

Not even close 

On 2/24/2024 at 8:13 AM, Turtle said:

I feel like the urge for a stud WR or offensive playmaker is at its core just a way to prove Bryce wasn't a bust.

Thats a trap we need to avoid at all cost. 

If those two things are not mutually exclusive (BPA & WR) great, we have a swisscheesey roster.

Got to go BPA 

 

* also not saying bryce IS a bust, and we DO need better help at WR/OL… take away is the good teams let the draft develop ahead of them and work within that. 

It’s not about proving he isn’t a bust, it’s about putting him in a situation to fairly evaluate him.  Even if he is a bust, then the same holds true for the next QB, he needs to be in a situation where he can succeed. 

Just because you can pay a player doesn't mean you should.

None of these deals happen in a vacuum, any resources spent can always be spent elsewhere,  what makes the team better? 

I’m all for BPA (within reason) and I do agree that this team needs talent everywhere, but….

Our biggest single issue right now is the QB position and has been for some time.  Wether it is Bryce, a vet, or some future draft pick we have to improve the offense to the level that we can properly evaluate whatever QB is under center. 
 

The QB position is the wildcard, it’s the position that almost has some luck involved.  Don’t make it harder by not surrounding him with quality players. 
 

Once you figure out the offense you can improve the defense later.

Think about it, it’s easier to fix a defense.  If you willing to spend draft picks or cap you can improve the defense with more certainty.  Whereas there seems to more more luck involved with finding a QB. 
 

I would love to see a WR, guard, WR, center type of draft.

Yes, let’s just spend more draft picks.

There is only so much talent you can add through free agency and through second contracts.  You need quality players on rookie contracts.  That is where your surplus value comes from.

can someone link what Voth said? 

One of the biggest problems with this forum and certain members is that everyone wants to take everything so literal.

Some "connected" journalist states that Rhule had final say and then next thing you know everything was his fault and nothing was Fitt's fault.  That isn't how these things work.  I doubt Rhule is doing all of the day to day scouting himself and putting the board together by himself.

What is more likely is that Fitt and his department does the scouting and puts together the board and then on draft day Rhule does have final say.  It's totally possible that Rhule did throw out Purdy's name at some point in the process and its totally possible they decided not to have him on the draft board.

It's pretty clear he didn't like him enough to push that hard for him, because if he would have had the much conviction, I'm sure he could have made it happen.  

I'm not absolving Rhule in all of these draft day decisions, there is enough blame to go around for everyone.  My only point is the truth is usually somewhere towards the middle.

As fans we always want to know who to blame, but it's not always that black and white.  Even if the HC makes the decision he is picking from a list that the GM put together.  It's not like the GM is offering up choices that he thinks is bad.

4 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Sure, dude.

Pretty much everybody knows Rhule is a lying narcissist. Voth (who would have been there) basically called bullsh-t on his claim. But if you wanna try and defend Rhule on this one, good luck.

It's dumb, but good luck anyway.

what exactly did Voth say?

57 minutes ago, KBRed said:

Can I just say…a lot of people are posting these 32nd in the league stats, but not disclosing that our offense was atrocious. The defense was on the field probably 30% more than most teams. Making that number up, but it seems plausible. 

not even close to being true.

It's unbelievable how much people around here make up stats to back up what they want to believe.

NFL Football Stats - NFL Team Average Time of Possession (Excluding OT) | TeamRankings.com

We were actually one of the better teams at ToP.

13 hours ago, micnificent28 said:

The Burns bashing is way beyond the levels of crazy. Did he have a down year by his standards yes, but so did the entire team. Being the sole pass rushing threat on the defense teams must account for is difficult enough. Not to mention playing on the tag risking serious injury or financial ruin.

When other held out for contracts Burns showed up to camp ready and excited to join his teammates. Despite what the huddle thinks hes still well regarded around the league and would still demand a first round compensation. 

The problem with trading him is you have to replace him, and replacing his first round pedigree with anything other than a first round talent(dj johnson and gross) is near impossible. You would have to burn another first and hope he becomes a top 10 presence. I mean look at the pressure generated by the defense and if you listen to the way fans tell it Burns is the problem.

I don't understand why people can't understand this, but when you trade a player who you are abuot to have to pay big money to, you don't have to replace him with the draft pick.  You replace them with the cap savings, the draft pick is just a bonus.

Can you replace Burns production with $30m and draft picks?

Also, it just isn't about replacing Burns production, it's about making the team better.  Maybe you use $15m and replace 90% of Burn's production, then you use the other $15m to greatly improve a different position, then with the draft picks you might get lucky and slightly improve two other positions.

4 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Wow

Yeah, okay. None of this actually happened. People are just making it up because they hate David Tepper.

Oy

Source? 

1 minute ago, Mr. Scot said:

If you say so, kid

I did.  Look, I appreciate alot of stuff you add to the forum, but be careful about passing on misinformation as fact.  It does a disservice to the team. 

8 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

There were more needed?

For the record though, it might help if you remembered that "personal" decisions were more of a GM thing and the article is about sabotaging the coach. That by, you know, getting him to hire people he didn't know or have reason to trust.

Also by using some of those people to undermine him. But hey, again you've explained how that really shouldn't stop anyone from doing a great job. I'm gonna assume this is from "personnel" experience, though it sounds like it's closer to Campen's experience than Reich's.

Oy

Look, dude. I get it. You want to be right. Or more importantly, you want me to be wrong. So you'll look for any angle, even one that goofily suggests an owner having people backstabbing one of his most important employees isn't such a big deal.

It's a dumb argument, but it's what you're running with because you need to disagree with me. Honestly, that seems to be the only reason you post anything at all.

But you're arguing a really silly point here in the process. 

I guess it's just that important to you.

Might wanna ponder the wisdom of that, but you do you.

That’s a long post just to dodge the question 

23 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I haven't asked Frank about any of his personal decisions, though i can tell you one decision he probably regrets is coming to work for an owner that was going to undermine him with spies stabbing him in the back.

Of course, in your enlightened opinion, you think someone working in that environment should just carry on with a positive attitude and do the best they can. So what the heck is anybody complaining about anyway?

Oh wait, did you mean personnel decisions? Well, that one regarding a quarterback was kind of a big deal. But hey, your sources tell you differently, so...

still dodging I see.

speaking of the QB decision, every report pretty much said he liked Bryce, but none said he vetoed  everyone.else.

Although there are numerous reports that everyone else also liked Bryce but you aren’t so quick to post those.

You only post the one that was the author claiming he could guess who frank would like, and then play it off as that was who frank said he liked.

Here again let’s keep pushing a narrative.  Now here again, what other personnel decisions???