Toomers

9 minutes ago, Leaky_Faucet said:

Where's the guy that told me it was going to be a 3rd or less?

2nd, 5th, and 24 million in cap space isn't bad. 

I wouldn't be upset if I were a fan, the Giants made him the second highest paid Edge- I don't think this fanbase wanted that.

I’m your huckleberry. And I never said he would only bring a 3rd. But it sure wasn’t out of hand to suggest. That there was a chance at a 1st and more was what was absurd and what I said would never happen.  I’ve called this from day one after turning down the Rams deal. So please call me out when no one has called this whole ordeal as accurate as I have. 
 

   2 1sts, a 2nd(36) and the 16M they gave him last year when he played to not get hurt. Plus that 24M too. Not bad either. 

25 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

That's a possible destination for Wilson.  Jimmy G still has some years on his contract so it would be as a backup, initially, if Fields went to the Raiders.  I don't think Fields can beat out a healthy Jimmy G. Wilson supposedly got a call from the Giants.  I don't see that happening though as Jones' contract is too steep right now to ditch and Wilson isn't signing as a backup.  Maybe Fields ends up there as a back up for a season and then the main guy if they cut Jones in 2025.

   Jimmy G got benched halfway thru last season. He will be released this week. Not in Raiders plans. 

8 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

It wasn't that we wanted to keep him. Releasing him cost more than keeping him and getting a salary reduction.  A June 1st designation kicks dead cap down the road. This way we pay less than releasing him and get his blocking. He is worth a backup roster spot

  Please don’t stop. Seeing you try to explain and understand the salary cap is hilarious. 

4 hours ago, Leaky_Faucet said:

I'm not saying the Panthers would get Deshaun Watson type trade compensation, but a single 3rd is a bit ridiculous. As I have said before, a couple of day 2 picks is reasonable. For those needing an Edge this season, who else are they going to go after? Franchise tagged Josh Allen? 31 year old Shaq Barrett? 31 year old Leonard Floyd? Bust Chase Young? Or trade into the top 10 to draft Dallas Turner? 

Burns on a long term deal for some day 2 picks is completely reasonable for a team in the Edge market.

Why not any of those players? And more. Josh Allen balled out during his 5th year option, and hasn’t turned down 27M/yr. Burns played to stay healthy. Huff, Hunter, Grenard, etc…. Many can duplicate Burns production at a fraction of the price. If he’s worth what he wants, why don’t the Panthers give it to him? No picks involved there. But another team should pay him and the Panthers?

Just now, Leaky_Faucet said:

Well of course whoever the trade partner is will have to negotiate first. I was not meaning that a team would trade for the solely for the ability to negotiate with him. There are teams out there that will pay him 27-30 million per year and send more than just a 3rd round pick to make that deal happen. See Chicago’s deal for Sweat.
 

 

 Sweat was 24M, and still had half a year at only 5M. In the same situation(but making less) as Burns. And he went out and led two different teams in sacks while being one of the best run defenders at edge in the NFL for years. Burns disappeared while trying not to get hurt. So who would give him more AND picks? 

1 hour ago, Leaky_Faucet said:

A third round pick is a joke. There's no way a "league source" would think a third rounder would be equal compensation unless your "league source" really wants Burns to stay in Carolina. 

Burns could go for a late 1st, pair of 2nd rounders, or a buffet of 2s/3s/4s. He isn't going anywhere for a single 3. The salary cap doesn't matter because whoever gets him will have to extend him anyways, you're paying to be the one that has the right to extend him for the next 4-5 years. 

   No one is doing anything unless he accepts a contract proposal from another team. No one is trading for his rights. He won’t sign the tag if he doesn’t get what he wants. His floor, is showing up right before the season, playing to stay healthy, and collecting his 24M for a 4 win team. He can wait on anything else and hold for an unrealistic price. The team that knows him best, and put his “price” at what he thinks it is, won’t pay him what he wants. But you expect another team to give him 30M/yr with 70M guaranteed, AND give up a 1st and maybe more? I’d like to see what team will accept that. 

3 hours ago, Jon Snow said:

I wonder what @Toomersthinks about this.

      If they tell him to come without his entourage and entitled attitude, I’m for it. Easier to suggest than it is to make happen. Whatever keeps them from just handing the job to Pickett to see if he can become average. That’s why I was on board with Fields. 
 

  Wilson can play for league minimum. So there’s not much risk. He starts being Russ and just cut his ass. 

2 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

I’ve heard Pitt as well. Tomlin seems to really be high on him. @ToomersHave you heard anything?

Not really? I know they should. Best option they will have for next two years. 

5 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

It’s Dave’s money because if you look ahead, we don’t have any worth extending after Brown/Luvu and maybe Burns. You only have to spend 89% of the cap space over 3 years so by the time we actually need it the 2024 cap won’t matter. I’m not saying we won’t waste money as per usual on Hurst and Houston and Sanders, but Burns 2024 tag is meaningless long term because we’ve done such a shitty job drafting that we don’t have worries about can we afford to pay Higgins and Chase while paying Burrow. I have harped on the cap for ages but it just hit me that Fitterer made it a non issue with 3 horrific drafts.

Burns was better for 3 years and Sweat was better last year but 2 years younger does play a part. You have risk with Sweat’s age and no risk with Burns’ age for the same deals.

   It’s overpaying(and renting) a player that’s not in the teams future plans at his current asking price. Something you have argued against doing for ages. And you’re using the same sad excuses people used on you(and me)

  They blow it anyhow(or can’t draft) so why try.

It’s the owners money, why does it matter. 
 

And the Hail Mary one of the 89% rule. When is the last time that had any effect on any team? Multiple teams have had over 100M in cap space to start a year and I fail to remember any team getting near that. 
 

And I’ve seen Sweat as a complete DE. Not a one dimensional specialist who’s a liability on 40+% of the snaps. And Burns is still “potential” that needs some sort of perfect situation to play capable of what he thinks he’s worth. 

10 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

I don’t care about Dave’s money and again that $21M doesn’t matter. After Brown, Luvu and Burns, we have no big contracts coming down the pipeline, especially without our 2024 1st.

Before this year when Burns made a business decision, he was absolutely a better pass rusher and more valuable. I still would have taken the Rams deal in a heartbeat. Don’t forget that Burns is also 2 years younger than Sweat as well. Sweat only signed a 4 year extension and he’ll still be 30/31 in his last two years. Burns could sign a 4 year deal and won’t hit 30 until a year after the deal is done. He’s more valuable and I don’t think the league has ever said Sweat was. Sweat’s also has been on more talented DLs overall. I’d still rather have the picks and cap space but I’d take Burns for 4 years all things equal instead of Sweat. Shark move still would have been to trade Burns and use the 2nd to trade for Sweat and still had 2 1sts and $5-10M a year for a FA, but that would require a smart person running the show.

 

“Dave’s money”??? So now it is somehow just the owners money and not the cap space that  it is in reality. Something you have harped on, like me, forever. Why couldn’t that go to a FA in 2025 when the team starts to figure out what they have. 
 

And if age is all you got, I rest my case.  Burns isn’t getting better. More the opposite. 

41 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

I don’t think NFL people think Sweat is better than Burns. I am 100% all in for trading him (Rams deal was a no brainer except for our dumbass) but I would definitely tag and see if you can get trade bites.

We have Brown and Luvu and that’s it for a few more years. Iky and Young aren’t getting big time second contracts. Horn will be lucky to get big money. Our cap space is not going to be an issue for a long time. It’s worth the $21M for one year to try and get better than a late 3rd. We’ll likely blow that money on mediocre offensive spots if we have it to spend.

Since 2020, Sweat has the highest run defense grade on PFF. And led two teams in sacks. Burns has one of the lowest, and wasn’t better than Sweat at anything last year. The Huddle doesn’t recognize run defense, but NFL people do. 
 

  21M to see if a 3rd can become a 2nd. Maybe. And that’s only if a team meets his “asking” price. They might waste the money. But that was the same reasoning people were using to not trade him to the Rams. “We can’t draft anyhow” was the common theme. 

2 hours ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

Letting Burns walk is about as dumb as paying him 30m.  If we're only going to get a 3rd out of him than it's better to Tag him and hope his value improves during the season.  Makes no sense to just let him walk. 

Sweat's a good player but I don't necessarily believe he's better.  Burns with the right squad would show his worth. 

One you will be getting him on a long-term contract.  Two as I said earlier there are many teams that value him more than the "Huddle" does.  Burns tagged with any good DE makes them a formidable duo. 

Another reason why I think other teams would still be highly interested in Burns.  Our offense did not put any of our opponents' offenses in passing mode.  Remember we NEVER lead in the 4th Quarter.  Teams aren't pressing to throw the ball.  Keep running it and playing solid defense.  Make Young march on 14 or 15 play drive.  It NEVER happened.  So, they run the ball.  Hard to get sacks when the opponent is running the ball.  

  But with any tag comes the risk that he just plays on the tag for 21M. Afraid to get hurt again. On a rebuilding team that not winning 5 games with or without him. Then they try again next year at around 26M. Think he will have more value then. And after July 15 he can’t play for anyone else. Burns has all the leverage. Panthers sit in limbo while teams fail to match his unreasonable asking price. 
 

Sweat is one of the best run defenders in the NFL. Burns is well….not. Sweat led two different bad teams in sacks last year. Without the 3-4 All Pros that Burns requires to be effective. Or the scheme. Or the offense. Or his fears of injury. Which of the Edge guys making 20M+ suck against the run? 
 

 What does getting him on a long term contract do? Send away draft picks to overpay a player who hasn’t come close to earning what he wants. Who are these teams? Where are these offers. Why isn’t he tagged right now. If it’s such an easy decision why not place it on him. Can’t do anything until that’s done. 

  Every team runs the ball on you because they can block Burns with a mediocre TE. This we aren’t ahead Colton’s just the next excuse for”this is the year” he puts it all together. We can go back and read my statements from soon after they turned down the trade. I’ve been dead on the whole time. But any random scenario you can invent is some sort of fact. 

34 minutes ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

You and @mrcompletely11 continue to say the same thing over and over but can't or won't give your reasoning on any of the tags available.  Tell me which tag you would use and why? 

It's tiring to see "Nobody is offering blah blah blah" and nothing substantial to back it up.  Your take is purely speculation.  There are several teams that would love to team Burns up with their DE.  

IMO Burn is the perfect Robin to anyone's Batman.  His best year was when Reddick on his other side.  You put his with a player like Crosby in LV or either one of the Bosa's.  That's a good duo. The Lions have been mentioned several times has highly interested in Burns.  Tag team him with Hutchinson and you got a nasty duo.  

Because my reasoning is no tag. Just let go and take 3rd comp pick. Or you will be stuck with a malcontent at 21M in a year that it won’t matter. If he shows up and doesn’t hold out. 
 

Players making as much as Burns wants or deserves don’t need others to enhance their game. If that is the case, they aren’t worth the money. Burns had one more sack with Reddick as he had this year. A player who regularly outperforms him for 15M/yr. You don’t give Robins 20-30M. 
 

Now, your turn to explain why a team would give up more than the 2nd the Bears did for Sweat? A better player who agreed to a reasonable contract. But you’re getting 2 1sts for a guy who was playing afraid to get hurt? 

4 minutes ago, DaveThePanther2008 said:

Exactly what I was saying.  If we Franchise tag him, we are stuck with negotiating with him and he's hell bent on getting 30 million and all we get is another year of half-ass performance.  If we go Non-Exclusive Tag than we throw him out there and see what other teams are offering without losing him if we want to match their offer. 

Nobody is offering close to what he wants. Especially with first round pick(s) attached. The Panthers won’t give him what he wants, and they made him think he’s worth that much, and don’t have to surrender picks. 
 

21M for another half assed year. While he cripples any ability to do anything else because he’s tying up your cap space. In a year that should be focused on rebuilding the entire team. He might report opening weekend. Or not. 

31 minutes ago, Krovvy said:

That's what I'm not seeing though. I don't think Carolina can attract any free agents this year that won't be a massive overpay, if they can attract any at all. There's just no real incentive for a player to come to Carolina right now. Even after a good year it's been difficult for Carolina to bring in talent, with the exception of the 2015 season when it was clear Carolina was a contender.

I would just rather overpay a known quantity than an unknown, or worse ending up with a massive amount of cap space, but no one worth paying.

Heaven forbid that a rebuilding(should be tanking) team have some actual cap space to rollover into a year like 2025 when they have had a year to build some value and a solid core. What do you expect happen next year. Restructure and overpay to win 5 games? If that? Then what? Same thing again in 2025? Keep that cycle of success rolling like it has been. 

  Paying players too much just because they are on your team is exactly how this organization has hamstrung itself for close to 15 years now. 

5 minutes ago, SOJA said:

Someone is lying I just don't know who is. Person is reporting Burns asked for 30 a year and was offered 5 mill 27 mill. Early this year it was reported that the Panthers offered the Crosby contract ~23.5 mill a year

That being said, the Panthers have been DRAGGED this entire year for not trading burns and then "not trying to sign him". If they offered him 5 years 27 mill a year that is a very fair deal and we can stop saying they "didn't do anything to sign him"

   I’ve always thought went to 25M at least. The former staff could have saved a lot of embarrassment and it wouldn’t have been that bad a deal at the time. The Panthers are the ones that inflated his value by turning down that trade. And they won’t give him what he wants. Other teams are well aware of this. Until Burns joins reality, he’s more of a liability than an asset. 

5 hours ago, top dawg said:

You're one of those underestimating Burns based upon all the things I've heard about his perceived value outside of the Carolina Huddle. Like I said, we'll see what happens.

A second for Burns is ludicrous.

 Why would a team give more than what Sweat got? He’s not going to sign for less than 25M/yr if not more. Why would a team pay him that and give up a first? Since he won’t agree to a deal, there is no trade and the Panthers pay him 22M in a year when that is the last thing they need to do. My perception of his value has been pretty spot on since the turning down the deal of a lifetime fiasco. 
 

  But if they do, please trade him to BAL. Id love to be able to watch the Steelers run straight at him 30 times a game. 

3 hours ago, rayzor said:

i really don't want to pay $20+ mil for burns (tag for him is $23), but if we can get two firsts for him i guess it's worth the risk.

i just don't see that happening.

maybe they can get someone to trade for him for a first this year without having to take the risk of the tag. if someone wants him, they'd probably be willing to jump at the option of only giving up 1 first.

 Not possible. He doesn’t have a current contract with CAR. Until they offer the tag, he can’t be traded. No tag and he’s a FA on March 5 at 4PM. 

Another fun fact….

If a team makes the decision to tag a player, they can still sign that player to a long-term extension. For example, the Ravens placed the franchise tag on QB Lamar Jackson in 2023, but later negotiated a five-year contract. 

However, if a new deal is not made by July 15, those players will be forced to play out the year on the tag. If they choose not to sign the tag, they will be ineligible to play for any other team for the entirety of the season.

   Nobody is giving up a 1st for a player who turned down 27M and is barely worth 20M(maybe?). Much less a 1st and more. A 2nd at this point would be surprising. 

5 hours ago, Basbear said:

Picks in rounds 2,3,4 are simply more than the 51st. Normally the cut off point for most 51st is around 900,000. I dont know what you are asking, sportac list both the cap and 51st cap numbers. Best I know lots guys have the 51st number. 

 1.8M for 2nd round pick. How can you replace a player making 900k but the cap difference number stays the same at 1.8M? You’re replacing 6 players that were making 5.4M with 6 that are making 6.5M. Simple math. Have no clue what they even mean with those numbers. Wouldn’t be the first time Sportrac screwed up numbers. 
 

  How are they making 86K as a cap hit for 2024? That’s not possible. 

24 minutes ago, Basbear said:

It is top 51 if you can read the far right figure. Only the picks 2,3,4 "count" and the signing bonus of 5 and 6 count. Well the yearly bonus rate. Its 4,116,387. Add in the signing bonus of UDFAs adds a few thousand. I think the limit is for SB UDFAs is 160,000 or it maybe 225,000. Rules change yearly I dont know what the current cap for them is. 

Still 4mill + 22mill = Not enough for anyone else, including injuries, PS, FAs. Ive always heard smart teams want at min 10-8mill for just in-season injuries. Thats why burns team holds the cards, team needs burns to do a couple favors and burns wants a couple million extra to help the panthers. 

 

heres the link- https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/cap/

3/4 form the bottom, if youre having issues reading that pic I had. 

Then explain how a player with a 1.8M cap hit replacing a player with a 915k salary(as the lowest 8 players above the 51 cutoff do) is the same amount if that’s what you’re referring to? Same with 3rd and 4th. And is it indicating that they only have to pay the signing bonus and no base salary on the last 3. 6 go on, 6 come off. 

3 minutes ago, Basbear said:

I think sportac has the rookie cap number- 

 

4.1 add another 2,000,000 or so for UDFAs. I think 2-5 should make this sorry-ass roster. 

That’s not figuring in the the players they replace on the top 51 cutoff. That’s 5.4M-5.7M. Which is subtracted from the the 6.5M. They will need about 1M to pay draft class. Picks 5-7 would be cheaper than anyone they replace. 

On 2/15/2024 at 6:54 PM, jfra78 said:

Where's the Steelers guy that thinks we shouldn't pay anyone

You mean the guy who predicted almost every disastrous move this team has made in the last 5 years. That one? The same one who told everyone how good Brown was. What are you going for here? 

4 minutes ago, Basbear said:

The issue is not the number, welll its the number but its the cap number. the team has around 30 million in space. burns @ 22mill + rookie pool 5 mill = nothing but a couple mill for in-season injuries. im sure thats the biggest issue.....i take that back burns play is the true issue....

The rookie amount won’t be that high for CAR. Once you figure in they are replacing 6-7 guys making minimum, at about 920k each, only your 2nd and 3rd are going to be higher. Joey Porter JR has a cap hit of 1.7M this past year and he went 33. 
 

But you need money for practice squad and injured reserve, so it might be more than 5.

   So you want to tag and trade Burns. Let’s see how this will play out. 
 

   As soon as you offer the tag, 22M of your salary cap is frozen. Tied to a player with an over inflated perception of what he should make. How much restructuring are they going to have to do to make this work? And no team is going to give up anything until Burns accepts a long-term deal at something in the 20-22M/yr range. Which he won’t. So now you are stuck paying 22M to an above average player on a team that truly needs to burn almost everything. Every team knows they don’t want to pay him.  Sweat and Chubb were signed long term before they got of planes to their new teams. 
 

2 hours ago, Mage said:

What are we saying is significantly less?  

Sweat went for a 2nd round pick, but he's older and less productive than Burns.  Frank Clark who was similar in age and production to Burns went to KC for a 1st and conditional 2nd (KC/SEA swapped 3rds).

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't get or expect at least a 1st round pick.

Significantly less than two 1sts and 36 in this past draft. That’s going to happen easily. 
 

   Production isn’t just sacks. Sweat and Clark weren’t liabilities against the run. Quite opposite in fact. They also weren’t clamoring for DPOY-type money. Sweat just had a better season than Burns ever had. Agreed to a fair deal and brought a 2nd. Why would any team give more to overpay a guy who basically went through the motions last year?