SCO96

4 minutes ago, ncfan said:

And that’s why you never scout the Helmet and scout the player.

Texas Tech and LSU had a Amazing history with NFL QBs before the 2 guys in the NFL now did they?  

KC traded to move up and get Mahomes at #10, but they were a playoff team before Patrick arrived with Alex Smith as QB.  They could afford to part with the drafts because:

a) they didn't have to move all the way up to #1 or #2 which would have been a lot more expensive.

b) they were already a playoff team without him as previously stated. Mahomes had the luxury of sitting on the bench his rookie year.

The Bengals didn't have to move up to get Burrow. They had the #1 pick in 2020. They were also able to get Tee Higgins in round 2 the same year. The next season they added Jamar Chase in the 1st round. They may have the best 1-2 punch in terms of young WR's (under 25) in the NFL. They wouldn't have been able to do that if they had traded up from a lower number spot in the top 10 to get Burrow and parted with next year's # 1 as a result.

If the team is solid, I'm all for moving up and getting your guy (like KC). When you have holes that could be filled with those high draft choice, keep adding talent and depth to roster so any QB who comes along (trade, draft, or FA) has the tools on the roster to succeed.

38 minutes ago, Tbe said:

So you’re good with just throwing a top 10 pick away?

AR working out in the pros is a long shot. 95% confident he busts. Poor accuracy and not enough time at the position.

No way Frank AND Fitts hitch their wagon to that.

The Bust potential is just as high (possibly higher) for CJ Stroud. Ohio State has never has a QB from their school even make a Pro Bowl in almost 70 years. Yet, a lot of people are so enamored with him that they believe we should give away multiple high draft picks in multiple years to move up to the #1 or #2 spot in the draft.

I was starting to think that Payton was heading back to the Fox studio for 2023.  Apparently he isn't intimidated at the prospect of facing Mahomes and Herbert twice a year. If he can revive Russell Wilson's passing game then things are gonna be real competitive in the AFC West for the rest of the decade.

On 1/27/2023 at 3:38 PM, CRA said:

I mean, you just listed a bunch of holes right there.   Saying we will just fill them doesn't mean it is that easy.   Just start with offense. 

QB is a massive hole.  The entire QB depth chart. 

We still have holes in our receiving game at WR and TE.   

We have a 27 year old journey man RB and our run game completely was nonexistent vs teams that could play the run down the stretch.  Seems like a pretty big red flag going up. 

We got DB holes. 

We got LB holes

We got DE/pass rush holes. 

Which is why when we stepped on the field vs a really good team like the Bengals down the stretch.  It was non-competitive from the start. 

The narrative that this is now basically a win now team handed to Frank doesn't fly for me.  Our schedule being so weak had a lot to do with us making it to 7 wins.   

I agree with everything you said. However, we are "win now" team in terms of the NFC South. Our division is terrible!

Suppose Brady moves on (and it appears that he will). Tampa Bay could be one of the worst teams in the NFL if they don't find a QB. No one on this board thinks the Saints or Falcons are head and shoulders above us in terms of depth or in QB play. Carolina could very well take the division with 8-10 wins just by acquiring a competent (not even great) quarterback. The NFC division champs finished with an 8-9 record (with Tom Brady behind center). We would have had the same record if not for the debacle in Atlanta with DJ's helmet. And, if we had bothered to double Mike Evans we very well could have hosted a playoff game at 9-8 against the Cowboys.

A guy on YouTube pointed this out last year after the Rams won the SB. I didn't list everything, but these are the 4 things that jumped out on his video.

2020 season

A team (Tampa Bay) acquired the biggest QB on the market: Tom Brady

Same team acquired a talented/controversial WR during the season: Antonio Brown

Same team happened to have SB at the home stadium: Raymond James Stadium in Tampa.

Same team did not have home field advantage but advanced to SB to win it all.

2021 season

A team (Los Angelas) acquired the biggest QB on the market: Matt Stafford

Same team acquired a talented/controversial WR during the season: OBJ

Same team happened to have SB at the home stadium: SoFi Stadium in LA area.

Same team did not have home field advantage but advanced to SB to win it all.

----

Coincidence or something else 

Just now, FuFuLamePoo said:

Yeah I LOVE DJ. He is a phenomenal player/talent. But he's nowhere near that upper echelon of WR's (Jefferson, Chase, Diggs, Adams, Hill, Diggs)

While I agree with you right now, I do think DJ game woud improve significantly if he had top 5 (or even top 10) throwing to him. He's played with arguably the worst QB room in the NFL for half a decade. He didn't even get a chance to play with Cam in his prime.

1 minute ago, t96 said:

Pitiful defense. Burrow is nothing without Chase

Don't forget about Tee Higgins. He's been balling too.

Just now, Shocker said:

Bengals need to punt here…way to risky they way the KC defense is getting after em

The Bengals O-line just looks overmatched. Compare the time Mahomes has to throw to the time that Burrow has.

3 minutes ago, The Natural said:

The NFL definitely wants the Chiefs. Too many "good" storylines. The "Battle of the Kelce brothers", "Warrior Mahomes battling through injury".

Andy Reid vs His old team "Philly"

6 minutes ago, SuperBowlBound said:

I understand some are angry that Wilks didn't get the job. Remember, Tepper said he'd be in consideration if he did "an incredible job." Last I checked, 6-6 is average. In context, yes, Wilks did good damn work with what he was given. Additionally, Tepper let Wilks run the team as he saw fit and did not interfere.

For Wilks, it boiled down to the Tampa game. He didn't get it done. He got conservative - as most defensive minded head coaches do - on 4th & 1 when it was clear you needed to score points to win that game. The Panthers also came out flat in some games, they were not consistent.

A lot of the Wilks love stems from the fact he is from Charlotte and has been part of the Panthers when they were successful. He also brought an identity to the team. 6-6 was accepted with just how incompetent Rhule was. 

I'm far from a Tepper apologist, the dude has made plenty of mistakes. But - Reich is a proven head coach in this league. Since their inception, the Panthers have had a top 10 scoring offense 6 times (96/99/05/08/11/15). In four full seasons at the helm in Indy (not counting this year), Reich had that 3 times. 

This isn't yesteryear's NFL. Yes, you still need to have an effective run game and competent defense. But you have to be able to score points. The rules have literally been changed to favor the offense. Offense is more consistent year to year than defense is. 18 of the last 20 teams to reach the conference championship game (including all 4 this year) have offensive minded head coaches.

The Panthers have to get with the times. This is a step in that direction. Will it work? Time will tell. I do think it's a bit ridiculous that people are ridiculing Reich, a proven head coach, when many had optimism for the snake oil salesman that pretended to be a football coach.

This is why I wasn't upset that Tepper opted to pivot away from Steve Wilks. I would have supported him if he had got the job. I can't see Wilks taking over as HC and improving the offense to the point where we could go toe to toe with the great offenses in the NFL. We've been in the league 28 seasons and still haven't posted back to back winning seasons. The one thing we've lacked during that period was an offensive minded HC. I much more confidence in Reich to acquire/develop a productive QB(which is what this team desperately needs) than Wilks.

40 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Smitty is right--when 50% of first round picks (approx.) bust,  why hire scouts?  I have said what he said about a first rounder--he gets 3 years to "prove it" where a kid that should need 3 years, a seventh rounder, is cut during preseason. 

I kept mocking Purdy to us last year--so I am pissed off.

This also makes me worry about the four first round QBs in this year's draft.

Young:  Alabama has a great OL and good WRs.  Still, his size makes him questionable, but he will be a first rounder and he will have 3 years to prove it.  He weighs 185 lbs, and that is scary.

Stroud:  He has all the tools.  Perfect modern NFL QB.  Is that not what they said about Fields and Haskins?  Did the best Ohio State QB ever not sit the bench and transfer to LSU?  Name a great Ohio State QB.  I'll wait over here.

Levis:  Another with all the tools.  Where was the productivity over his college career?  In 2 years as the KY Wildcats QB, he threw 23 interceptions.  Is that expected to improve in the NFL?

Richardson:  A stud athlete, and there is a lot to like, but he completed less that 60% of his passes and threw for 17 TDs vs. 9 Interceptions.  He is a dual threat, but is he really a top 15 player?  He will need some work.

Therefore, I am not impressed with this group of QBs.  In 2021, I was not thrilled about Lance or Wilson, stated (and I was blasted on this board--it hurt my feelings) that Mac Jones was perhaps better.  I wanted Fields. 

Hooker: " Hooker completed 70 percent of his passes during his 2022 season for 3,135 yards, 27 touchdowns and two interceptions. He also recorded 430 yards and five touchdowns on the ground. Hooker tore an ACL" (Walter Football), and will probably need a year.  Now that means he would be about 26 years old before he could play football.  Many see that as a negative. I don't.  A mature QB between the ages of 26-29 on a first contract?  The second contract would cover years 30-34, so you still get him for 8 years.  How long did we have Cam (from his rookie season to the last effective season)?  Hooker beat Bama.  Hooker made Tennessee relevant.

I am almost of the mindset to wait and take Herndon Hooker at the end of round 2 (let him develop for a season as he rehabs)

Tune: Want a QB in this draft that has a lot of similarities to Purdy?  Clayton Tune from Houston.  He is 6-3, 220, and nothing really jumps off the charts at you.  However, "Tune enjoyed an excellent senior year, racking up a lot of production and putting up a lot of points for the Cougars. In 2022, he completed 67 percent of his passes for 4,061 yards, 40 touchdowns and 10 interceptions....He will enter the next level with a lot of starting experience because he broke into the starting lineup during the 2019 season. Tune played well in 2021 too, completing 68 percent of his passes for 3,546 yards, 30 touchdowns and 10 interceptions. " Some team sources say they are not high on Tune. (Walter Football)

So in two seasons, and that is a lot of experience, He has 70 TDs and 20 interceptions.  How are Levis and Richardson expected to be drafted 130 picks earlier?  I don't get it.  Was it the system--maybe--but if that were the easy answer, wouldn't everyone run that system?

I might even draft both QBs in this Draft--Hooker in round 2 or 3, and Tune on day 3.

Good post. I think the main problems is with how the "pundits" evaluate QB's. We assume someone is a first rounder because the evaluation people say they are. They may not really have 1st round talent. Remember how Mel Kiper Jr was all in on Jimmy Clauson being a 1st round pick? Back in 1978 Joe Montana was viewed as a 3rd round talent. Tony Romo and Kurt Warner weren't even drafted which means the pundits didn't think they were worth drafting. How did the above scenarios turn out.

In reality, some QB's are overrated draft prospects, and some QB's are underrated prospects.

1 hour ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

There are many factors contributing to a QB's success or failure at the NFL level. Some, like drive, learning curve, ability to process at the speed needed in the league, are extremely hard to measure, so while QB prospects are put under an intense microscope pre draft, what often gets overlooked is how unmeasurable these things are, and how this contributes to the crapshoot nature of drafting a QB. 

The other thing that I think is overlooked and borderline ignored most of the time, his how big a factor the specific circumstances a young QB finds himself in influence the outcome. The quality of the OL he plays behind, his skill position players, the fit of the scheme to his skillset, the quality of the coaching he receives. Keep in mind all these things matter, and they can vary greatly from team to team.

A common fan perspective is to lament that we could have had so and so player and we didn't draft him. I believe the problem with this idea is the notion that player x's outcome is mostly about him, and that if he were here, the outcome would largely have been the same. I am becoming increasingly of the opinion that environmental factors play a much bigger role in a prospects success or failure at the NFL level than most fans are inclined to consider.

What if we had drafted Hurts?

Maybe he'd have had not nearly as much success if he'd come here.

Great post. I was goimg to post some thoughts on this topic. You're thoughts mirror mine so closely that I don't need to do so now. So, I'll just add to what you said.

Hurts (2nd round) is in a good situation right now and is showing the world what he can do. As you pointed out, he wouldn't be a NFL MVP candidate playing for Matt Rhule and the O-line we had during his first 2 years as head coach. Players need to be put in positions to maximize their talents and help them reach their potential.

Look at Trevor Lawrence (1st round). He didn't look like a generational QB last year. Part of the that was due to being a rookie and having to adapt to the speed of the game. But his struggles last year were largely due to the poor coaching of Urban Meyer. Now he's got two full seasons under his belt; A good HC; and the team is steadily adding pieces for him to flourish. He looks like he's really poised to break out in his 3rd year.

Brock Purdy: (6th round pick). So far he's played lights out. Why? Great coaching staff and arguably the most talented team in the league man per man. He's in a situation where he can thrive. He wouldn't have had type of success in Carolina he played here in 2022 (or any other season under Matt Rhule)

Geno Smith: A won't go too long on this. But he looked like a legit starter in the league in 2022. Once again you have a guy who is playing for a good coach. He had some competent pieces in place prior to the season; and his GM had the best draft class of the year. Geno thriving due to his effort and playing in a good situation/envirionment.

It's great if you can get a super talented/elite prospect like Trevor at the top of the draft. But, if you can't you nab one of those early, teams can find solid starters after the first round if the team is well constructed and is able to put the player in a good situation to start their career. 

I believe "any QB" in the NFL would enjoy playing with an offensive guru like Sean Payton. I really can't blame Russell for wanting him to come to Denver. Payton is one of the guys in the league who could probably revive Wilson's career and make everyone forget about his nightmarish 2022 campaign. 

50 minutes ago, thennek said:

I get that the Saints get compensation in draft picks, but would it not be better for them to get those draft picks from another team not in the NFC South (IE - Denver, Houston, Indy)?  It would be like the Panthers trading CMC to the Saints and have to face him twice per year/every year.  

For the Panthers, this team still needs a lot:  QB, DE, DT, TE, WR, depth and etc....do not see how they build a team without the picks they are supposedly giving for Payton.  I sure hope this is a smokescreen, and Tepper is not doing this.  I am fine with Payton the coach, but I do not think he is worth what it will cost to get him.  

Payton may not be interested in any of those jobs.

He'll never spend the money that he's already earned. Plus he's got a cushy job as an analyst at Fox. He can afford to sit out another year (or two) if he wants. After that he can still sign with the Panthers (or Falcons, or Bucs for that matter) and still face the Saints twice per year.

You're right about our needs  but those can be filled via FA. Payton's offensive mind is respected by the players in the NFL. I'm sure there are veteran WR's and TE's that would strongly consider coming here if  he took over the team in 2023. His reputation may be able to lure some defensive players as well. A brilliant offensive coach can make life a lot easier for those who play on the other side of the ball.

9 minutes ago, thennek said:

Why would the Saints allow their 'ex-admired, Super Bowl coach' go to a division rival?  

Normally you wouldn't. But as someone pointed out, the Saints would hate to see him sit out until their rights to his services expire and they get no compensation from him. If Payton goes to the Panthers in the 2023,  the draft choice(s) they'd receive would offset to some degree his decision to coach a division rival. And let's be honest. The Saints need a QB. A first rounder in 2023 or 2024, or a package of lower picks could be used to acquire a young QB to lead the team in the foreseeable future.

11 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

It might be, but as an adult you still have to make what you feel is the best decision.

Word is he thinks they're building "something special" up there with Campbell and crew.

I was about to type the same thing until I saw your post. Honestly, I think they may well be on the way to building something special in Detroit. That franchise has been mediocre for so long that I'd like to see them succeed. With Rodgers aging, the Vikings continously falling short when it matters most, and the Bears being the Bears, the Lions could rule that division for the next several years.

I'm about to have lunch and I have Colin Cowherd on in the background. He just spoke about how well Daboll has done this year in NY. He even insinuated that some of Josh Allen's turnovers and bad decision making is a result of not having Daboll in Buffalo to reign him in a bit with his coaching.

He also said teams with a good coach/QB combination will always be competitive. We need to first find a coach (an offensive minded one I hope); and then let him pick the QB that he wants to work with. If he wants a guy in this draft we should try get him. If he has reservations, we need to trust his judgment. You don't want a  a new coach straddled with a QB he feels uncomfortable working with.

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Is the actual intention of the Rooney Rule to get more minority coaches hired or is it to provide positive PR / cover for the NFL?

It could be both sir.

I definitely think the latter suggestion in your post is part of it. If minorities are interviewed and don't get hired the Franchise/Owner can always say "We gave him an opportunity, but the other guy was better suited or qualified."

But let's look at this from another angle. A minority guy who might not normally get an interview could come in an ace the interview. So much so that the owner and GM are blown away and could say, "He may not have been my first choice but this guy is special. I'd hate to see him end up coaching another team in the NFL." From what I remember, the Steelers had that type of experience with Tomlin when he interviewed for that job almost two decades ago he still hasn't had a losing season. 

36 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

At this point this is where the Rooney rule hits a point of failure. It's a waste of people's time and that sucks for all that is involved. I get what the league is attempting to solve, but I just dont believe the strategy is correct. I believe the compensation of draft picks for hiring minority candidates is a step in the right direction.... but the Rooney rule is dated and not effective. 

 

I feel that the Rooney was well intentioned. A lot of guys have received interviews who wouldn't have if it were not in place. But, I understand your viewpoint.

Let's say I was a minority candidate  who specializes in defense. An owner is looking to hire a coach and he's already showed signs that he has a guy in mind or wants a offensive minded coach. I wouldn't want to waste my time interviewing for the position just because he has to "interview an A.A/Hispanic/Asian " to be in compliance with the Rooney Rule. I'd only go if I thought that particular franchise would be a good place to work as defensive staff coach and I wanted to get my foot in the door.

This reminds me of 2018. I was disappointed with the way Mr. Richardson handled the "G.M." search after he axed Gettlemen. He interviewed 3 A.A. candidates (Martin Mayhew, Lake Dawson, and Jimmy Raye III), Ryan Cowden, and Marty Hurney, who was serving as interim GM. We all know how that turned out in the end. Those interviews were a sham and were conducted to satisfy the Rooney Rule.

Yet, the draft pick thing has some flaws as well. Something seems weird about saying that you get more draft choices because your hired a minority coach. We could have been scheduled to get pick 66, but lose it to another team because they hired Leftwhich or Beienemy.

Or, imagine hiring a minority who is the 2nd coming of a Bill Walsh, Tom Landry, the 2 Bills (Parcells or Belichik), Shula, or Gibbs and pair him with a shrewd GM.  He'll come in with several extra bullets in the chamber and could dominate the league in a matter of years 

I would like to clarify something that I may not have made clear in an earlier post. If a player is hurt (especially if the injury is knee related) I am not in favor of him playing and risking further or  possibly permanent damage.

I took issue with people saying the reason Lamar isn't playing because the Ravens refuse give him a good deal. First, Lamar could really be hurt and may need to sit until he's healthy. Second, it's not fair though to say the Ravens should have given him a deal already. They offered him a deal and he turned it down. If I were in his shoes I wouldn't have stepped on the field without a deal in 2022. But, I also wouldn't have insisted on "getting what Deshaun got". If I got something in the range of what Allen, Prescott, Murray, Mahomes, etc were averaging per year I would have taken it. However, I may have asked for a short deal so I could renegotiate it after the 3rd year.

19 hours ago, TheBigKat said:

I just love all the high and mighty speeches when everyone on here would do the same thing that Lamar and his agent (mother) are doing

I don't think everyone would do what Lamar is doing. It depends on their mentality. Some people care more about than anything. Others don't.

Lamar has already made $32,774, 549. He's not exactly starving. If I were in his situation knew I was assured of making anywhere between $150-200 million over the next 4-5 years while I was still in my mid 20's (Lamar is only 26)  I could care less about "setting the market". I'd more concerned about pleading with ownership to get some players so I can get the one thing missing on my resume, A SB ring.

Most of us saw that game last night. If Lamar had played last night and had a Tyreek Hill, Justin Jefferson, or a Cooper Cupp to play along side his TE Mark Edwards I don't think the Bengals would have beat them last night. The back up ,Huntley, may have won that game going away if he had a big threat WR and he's not even as good as Lamar. Jackson is a freak of nature. Add another couple of freakish WR's to go along with that power running game and they can go toe to toe with anyone in the AFC at home or on the road.

He'd be 30 or 31 when that deal expired. Barring injury, he'd be young enough to get another blockbuster deal. I wouldn't want to play for chump change (relative to QB's of course). But I think I could scrape by $40 mil per year and the huge signing bonus I'd receive up front.

4 minutes ago, TheBigKat said:

If an agent isn't doing what is in the best interest of their client then that agent will soon be the assistant manager at Home Depot

 

I personally have no problem with these guys getting all they can get

Amazon paid Goddell and his cronies $1 billion a year to broadcast shitty Thursday games

I tend to agree to with you to point. My issue is with the disparity between QB salaries and the rest of the positions. One guy shouldn't be taking 25% of the cap when you have 52 other guys to play. If everyone's salary was rising at the same rate in proportion with revenue and the salary  the league would be a lot better. You'd have less cap casualties and these 22-26 year olds wouldn't have so much pressure to win SBs on their rookie deals before it's time to "pay them".

1 minute ago, TheBigKat said:

Your neighbor sold his house for $450k

 

your house is way nicer, larger, etc, in the same neighborhood, you going to accept $375k?

 

 No you’ll be demanding $500k

 

thats what Lamar did and rightfully so, people calling him a loser/quitter shows you the lack of understanding basic economics 

Yo

1 minute ago, TheBigKat said:

Your neighbor sold his house for $450k

 

your house is way nicer, larger, etc, in the same neighborhood, you going to accept $375k?

 

 No you’ll be demanding $500k

 

thats what Lamar did and rightfully so, people calling him a loser/quitter shows you the lack of understanding basic economics 

The greed of NFL QBs and their agents and idiot ownership is what is upsetting the balance of the league.

I have no problem with the best person at his position setting the market. I have a problem with the next man up setting the market because it leads to financial chaos. The Watson deal was dumb. One owners foolishness shouldn't determine the salary structure for the entire NFL. 

Guys are wanting 50 mil a year to play QB on a 53 man roster with a salary cap of approximately $200 million. That doesn't make sense on any level. 

It's unfortunate that guys get cut before the contract expires, but those guys aren't walking away empty handed. They get huge signing bonuses up front and a significant portion of those contracts are guaranteed. I heard one former GM all big contracts are essentially 3-4 deals. That's not the worst thing when you're making millions of dollars over that time period.

1 minute ago, AggieLean said:

lol at “quit on his team”

 

Knew that narrative would come. Lamar was generous to even suit up for them to start the year, knowing he was trying to get the big contract. Once he got a scare, he was smart to shut it down. Other NFL players agree.

He was already under contract for the 2022 season. What's courageous about honoring the last year of a deal that you signed after you refused a generous contract extension? 

3 minutes ago, TheBigKat said:

Lamar made a business decision not to risk his health when he has no guaranteed money anyone with a half formed mind would understand that. This is on the Ravens

Just like teams ruthlessly cut players for any reason including not performing

Didn’t they make a couple of solid offers that he turned down because he wanted more money and a fully guaranteed contract. How is this entirely on the Ravens?