SCO96

4 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

I will offer this one bit of advice.  Before you try to determine who will be a top qb coming out of college you should wait until they finish their last year.  Year after year I hear about how great some qb is as a junior only to see them struggle their senior year season. It happens every year. 

Well, 2 pieces of advice. Don't draft USC qb's. 

OR OHIO STATES'!

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

 It's far from guaranteed that Caleb Williams will be the #1 overall pick. With how long he holds the ball and already talking about trying to call his own shots about the team he goes to the red flags are starting to fly.

I really haven't followed Caleb Williams much or even really watched him play outside of highlights on tv. I'm usually not that familiar with NCAA football if doesn't involve the SEC, Clemson, or a couple of other blueblood programs like Ohio State, Michigan, Texas, and Oklahoma. I can't comment on what you put in your post. However, in this one instance I'd support him wholeheartedly if he did not want to play for the Chicago Bears.

Over 70 years after his retirement in the early 50's, Sid Luckman still ranks 2nd all time on the Bears in TDs and passing yards. He may even have the 2nd highest QBR rating. That's a mindboggling statistic. 

51 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I mean, it's the Bears and QBs. Whoever they pick is gonna suck. It's like a law of the universe. The Bears and Jets have to suck at QB.

Caleb Williams is a junior and has already won the Heisman Trophy. You know he's ready to join the NFL in 2024. But, if I were his family member or a potential agent, under no circumstances would I allow him to leave college if Chicago had the first pick in the draft.

I'd do one of the following:

1) pull an Andrew Luck and stay in school. 

2) tell Chicago not to draft me like John Elway told Baltimore in 1983

3) have a deal worked so I could be traded to another team on draft day (Eli Manning)

Caleb is headed for disaster if he's drafted by the Bears in 2024.

11 minutes ago, Cpt slay a ho said:

I mean that was the knock on hurts, his passing wasn’t near where it needed to be at the time he was drafted or when he became the starter for the eagles, they added aj brown and Devontae smith and he became mvp caliber qb, a better overall supporting cast would help fields, his best WRs before they acquired Moore was who? Mooney ? Kmet? Not to even mention the shotty o line.

fields might not pan out but I think Chicago has done very little to put pieces around him to develop as a passer or even be competitive 

I was never a Justin Fields fan. As soon as I saw OHIO STATE on his resume it was an easy pass. I have no regrets about us not drafting him. 

That said, I feel bad for him. He needs a solid offensive head coach (or a really top end OC) to help him develop. As soon as Chicago went with a defensive HC I knew Fields was going to struggle out of the gate this season.

3 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

He will have to break the curse. He would be the first to do it. I would feel better about him if he were at another school.  The curse is real man.

I feel the same way.

With the exception of Carson Palmer (who had a good, but not an exceptional career) I honestly can't think of ANY OTHER USC QB's that had a "good" NFL career...and I'm actually old enough to remember Pat Haden playing for the LA Rams in the late 1970's.

1 hour ago, Jon Snow said:

It's real alright.  Fields will not break it. It's up to CJ Stroud now.

It's the same with USC qb's.  They look like world beaters in college and then every single one drafted into the nfl have been a bust. You would think these kids would learn the history of being drafted out of those schools and either not go or transfer out before they get cursed as well.

Stay away from OSU and USC qb's. 

Jon, 

What are your thoughts on current USC stud QB Caleb Williams?

43 minutes ago, PanthersGOATFan336 said:

Mahomes also made it to the conference championship his first year starring, can we compare Bryce to him in that aspect too?

Mahomes was drafted by KC in 2017 but only threw 35 passes his rookie season. He didn't start until 2018. From 2013 (Reid's 1st year) through 2017 KC made the playoffs 4 times and their worst season during that stretch was a 9-7 2nd place division finish in 2014. The Chiefs were a good, but not great, team with Alex Smith at quarterback.

Mahomes inherited a supporting cast that was a whole lot better than what Bryce is working with in Carolina. The Panthers have had 5 straight losing seasons prior to Bryce Young's arrival. Mahomes joined a team that had 5 straight winning seasons before he took over as starter.  

It's unfair to compare their first seasons as starters.

1 minute ago, mrcompletely11 said:

So you dont think that is in the terminology in the contract when he signs for being cut?  If a team broke a legit contract they would be sued to all hell.  The team words the contracts with terms like guaranteed money, outs etc.   You can argue semantics all day long but teams word contracts in their favor for the most part but the player still signs.

I actually see your point.

If I sign a 5 year/100mil contract with a guarantee of of $60 million over 3 years and get a large signing bonus up front, I wouldn't complain too much if I didn't see year 4. I would know going into the deal that once the guarantee was gone I'd be on thin ice so to speak.

I have no problem with players maximizing their revenue in general. My problem is with guys who want deals that take up nearly 20% the cap space for a single position and then complain about needing more help to perform better. If you demand anywhere from 25 to 50 million per season to play QB, pass rusher, or WR...how on earth do you expect the team to have solid depth from top to bottom? If you think you're worth that much, go out and earn the money and put the team on your back week in and week out.

If a GM paid top dollar to the three positions above almost half of your cap space would be gone before you could pay the other 50 players on the roster. The whole idea of having to win a SB while your QB is on a rookie deal seems backwards. It should easier to win a SB as a QB matures and hits his mid-late 20's. In the NFL it's harder because those guys take up so much cap space their teams will always having some glaring hole/weakness.

51 minutes ago, SmittysLawnGuy said:

Synthetic weed that can cause massive hallucinations. Can cause you to eat peoples faces at its highest performance levels.

41 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Look up videos of it...  people have like went into hallucinations and never came out of them.  Ade them completely insane after.  I've read of people bleeding from their facial orfices...  it's scary poo.

This.

I live a pretty unremarkable/sheltered life. I knew absolutely NOTHING about this. Thanks for the information gentlemen.

Guys, what exactly is is K2 

Total yards/yards per game: (5,474/320.0)  7th 

Total passing yards/yards per game: (3,574, 210.2) 12th

Total rushing yards/yards per game: (1,866, 109.8)  10th

Total points/points per game: (359, 21.1) 14th

Takeaways: 23 (15 INTS, 8 Fumbles) 15th

Sacks: 36  23rd

----

Last year Denver finished in the top 15 of every major defensive statistic except sacks. Their sack total was 1 better than our 35 despite not having one player on the team finishing with more than 6.5. That was impressive considering Denver

1) played in the tougher conference (AFC),

2) played in a tough division...they had to play the Chiefs and Chargers a combined 4 times in 2022

3) had the worst scoring offense the league...16.9 pts per game. 

----

I can see our defense matching or improving on those numbers since we play in a worse division, a weaker conference, and have a better offense. We averaged 20.4 pts with Sam Darnold, PJ Walker, and Baker Mayfield behind center. With the new and improved offense and coaching staff I can say i haven't been this excited about Panther football since the 2015-2017 era.

Thanks for the reply. I had no idea you'd go into this much detail. I was expecting a link to an earlier post or website. Good stuff. Your post needs to have it's on topic/thread. .

16 hours ago, Icege said:

From the way it sounds, Evero's defense funnels passing plays towards CB1. That would mean that CJ is rarely going to be on an island by himself (unless he happens to be CB1 on the play, of course). With a player who's confidence has been shaky at times, that could go a long ways towards making him a meaningful contributor to the defense.

As I've gotten older I've become more interested in defensive schemes. You made a comment about Evero's defense funneling plays toward CB1. Do you happen to know where you saw that. I barely paid any attention to the Broncos last year. I'm clueless in regards to their scheme. Any information about what we can expect this year would be appreciated.

On 7/29/2023 at 5:14 AM, PleaseCutStewart said:

For everyone giving D Brown crap, I think he can be an even better version of Vita Vea. The dude is completely lock down in The run game and is still developing past rush moves. I think people need to realize how difficult it is to create pressure as an interior d lineman when the online can double or have a RB help out easily 

Warren Sapp once said that the shortest route to the QB is right up the middle. That's why coaches put so much emphasis on blocking interior lineman that are able to get after the QB. None of us expect Brown to have Aaron Donald numbers year in and year out. But, I think he needs to do better than 2 sacks per year (he has 6 total sacks from 2020-2022) "if" his management team thinks he's worth over $15 mil per season. You can find a big body in the draft after the 1st round to replace his production and use that type of money elsewhere.

10 minutes ago, FuFuLamePoo said:

I’m aware, I simply said it’s where I valued him. We always knew he was a DL that is a nonfactor in the pass game. It’s hard for me to value that in the first round.

I wanted Lamb or Wirfs the night of that draft.

I tend to lean toward your opinion. I was never big on the pick. It reminded me of what we did in 2016 when we drafted Vernon Butler in round 1, another DT who wasn't a dominant factor in the passing game.

I agree that we need to see how 2023 plays out to see if DB is the guy we want to stick with for the rest of the decade. I hope he balls out.

But, I do have one question for those who feel like we "must" retain him. If he had not been drafted by us in 2020 and was scheduled to hit the market after the 2024 season...based on what you have seen so far... would you want to spend 15-20 mil per season to acquire him as a FA? I'd have to say no.

21 hours ago, csx said:

There is absolutely no point in making any conclusions or even having a strong opinion about his future value before he plays in Evero's defense.

This one sentence post may be the best one I've read since we began this topic. 

After looking back on the disaster known as the "Rhule Era", I think your reasoning applies to any remaining roster players drafted by Carolina from 2020-2022. Most of those guys have yet to experience solid coaching at a professional level.

On 7/22/2023 at 10:02 PM, Peon Awesome said:

I'm a Panthers homer but Derrick Brown isn't in the same league as Quinnen Williams. And the reality is, even if they're arguably as valuable in the game as pass rushers, space eating/run stopping DTs don't command the flashy contract numbers. A better comp would be Dalvin Tomlinson who also signed a new contract this year, 4 years $57 million. If Derrick Brown takes another step forward this year, he might be in line for something in that ballpark.

I totally agree with your assessment on his talent level. To be frank, I'd have doubts signing him to a 14-15 mil per year; especially if I had holes to major holes to fill on the team and had a player or two on the roster capable of giving me similar production at a much lower cost. 

4 hours ago, Gerry Green said:

 

If you aren't going to pay him, you should have traded him. As he is still here, he needs to be paid. Really is just that simple.

Brown was picked in the top 10 of the 2020 draft. We have him under contract for two more seasons. There was no need to trade him this offseason. He could still blossom into something special, especially with all of the coaching changes we've made for 2023.

But, if he doesn't become more dominant, I probably wouldn't be that opposed to moving him before the 2024 season. If I were offered a #1, or very high 2nd round pick, I'd be strongly inclined to take the deal. 

On 7/13/2023 at 5:24 PM, SOJA said:

He won't get that much money but he is going to get paid. This will be a big year for him. A legit pass rushing DT is critical to success in today's league so I'm fine with paying him if he continues to improve. 

I think it is questionable to call Derrick Brown a legit pass rushing DT. Our DT's combined for 2 sacks last season. DB got 1/2 of that number.

I'm old enough to remember Joe Greene and Randy White dominating from the entire line in the late 1970's. I've seen guys like John Randle, Warren Sapp, Bryant Young, Howie Long terrorize QB's from the DT position. Today, Aaron Donald averages more sacks than most DE's. Those type of guys are worth $20 million a season. Thirty-two year old Fletcher Cox has 7 sacks for the Eagles in 2022 despite being several years past his prime. I could even see paying a 25-26 year old Cox that type of money. "So far" Brown hasn't proven to be that type of player. If his current level of play continues thru his current contract and he asks for $20 million a year to resign, then it would be in our best interest to let him move on.

You hit the nail on the head when you said "if he continues to improve". I'd take that even further. He needs to become a dominant player at his position before I'd even consider dishing out that type of money. As a GM, if I knew he was looking for that type of contract I'd start looking for his replacement in the draft over the next two seasons in order to have someone ready to replace when/if we decided to part ways.

The 4 hardest positions to fill with "elite talent" (via draft, FA, or trade) are QB, Pass rushing DE, LT, and CB. Those positions are going to almost always command the highest salaries on a competitive football team. If your roster is set at those positions and your team had an above "average O-line" , the franchise should be in the playoff hunt year in and year out. If you have "good players, if not great players" at the other positions you probably going to be a SB contender.

2 hours ago, Gerry Green said:

Again. I am saying Burns isn’t worth 25 million per year or a 100 plus million dollar contract. 
I never said we shouldn’t try to sign him and take advantage of our rookie QB contract. I just wish we could get him cheaper. I would be fine with 15-18 million per. But 25 million is elite. Which I don’t think he is yet. 
I hope it works out and the Burns finally reached that point. 

2 hours ago, Gerry Green said:

So I guess the question becomes; Are there any players you would pay? Because if you don't want to pay 'Burns, there can't be many players you would want to pay.

 

Then if you don't pay Burns it sends a message that the Panthers won't pay their own. Then it starts getting messy.

 

Buying FA every year is expensive and makes it dang near impossible to build chemistry. 

The die has been cast, so there is no going back. But, situations like this is why its obvious that the NFL salary structure ridiculous. Non QB players taken in the draft can go from making 4-5 million per year, or less, to 4-5 times that amount on a 2nd deal. It's great for the player, but when you have 52 other active roster players tough decisions have to be made.

I can see why some would be hesitant to pay Burns. I also realize that talented pass rushers don't grow on trees. If they did everyone would have one. You just can't let a guy responsible for 1/3 of your sacks walk away without a sure thing on the roster to take his place...especially when he's only 25 and hasn't even hit reached his prime.

I say pay the man. Build a solid team around Bryce and try to reach the SB by 2025. At the same time, you need to start making roster moves to have a young pass rusher (two pass rushers ideally ) in place on their rookie deals when it's time to pay Bryce the big money in 2026. Burn would be coming to the end of his 2nd deal and you could possibly be in a position let him walk if his future salary is too high for the cap.

It's fair to say that no player on our roster played up to their potential under Matt Rhule. I wouldnt be surprised to all of the roster players he drafted improve by leaps and bound in 2023. Good post. I hope your optimism for these two pays off this season...and beyond.

Marty was so bad as a GM that I don't believe he was ever asked to interview with another team for a GM job or any other front office position.

We can only imagine how different things would have been if Richardson had brought in a GM with a different perspective and a better eye for talent after he let Gettleman go prior to the 2017 season. Perhaps the O-line would have been fixed; keeping Cam from ever getting hurt. We were 6-2 I think before the bottom fell out in 2018. Perhaps Rivera never loses his job. Or, if he did get fired we could have hired a coach more adept with dealing with the offensive side of the ball in the modern NFL., Rhule almost cetainly would have never been hired, and our draft classes would likely have been much better after our 1st round selection

Instead, Richardson went back with Hurney as an "interim GM" and decided to keep him on until he sold the team to Tepper...which has resulted in 5 strait losing seasons.  

3 hours ago, bythenbrs said:

I think he gets one more opportunity under the new staff, i.e. real NFL coaches who have NFL experience and can actually develop players, to see if there is enough worth working with longer term.

Great comment.  I think you can make an argument that coaching is more important in football than any other of the major professional sports. How many time have we've seen players labeled as bust or cut only to see them flourish under the tutelage of another coaching staff.

I'm not sad that either player is gone. But let's be honest. If this current coaching staff was coaching last year's team, I think the Panthers would have won our division with either Mayfield or Darnold playing the majority of the snaps behind center. They would have been able to get the most out of both guys, something that Rhule and Wilks were unable to do.