SCO96

1 hour ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

When you have to go back 40+ years to find a reasonable sample size of teams that could win a championship with a piss poor QB you make my point for me.

You don't think the niners win two or three superbowls with a legit QB vs Jimmy?

You don't think the Panthers win Superbowl 38 with someone like Peyton Manning under center?

You think the Chiefs win yesterday's game, or even make the playoffs, with Trent Dilfer as QB?

 

Come on man.

 

None of the guys I mentioned were "piss poor quarterbacks". None were superstars but they knew to manage the game. Plukett won 2 SBs and his team were the underdogs in both of them. . They all played well win the team needed them the most. 

We'd all love to have a great QB behind center. My point that a good (not bad or below average, but good) QB can win in this league with a strong supporting cast. As great as Manning was, his teams lost by double digits in two Superbowls. Jake D played better in his loss to NE  in SB 13 than Peyton played in any of his 4 SB appearances.

And no, I don't think Dilfer would have won that game last night. But here's something interesting. Mahomes stat line was 21/27, 182 yards 3TDS and 0 INTs. He made some big plays by avoiding some sacks and scrambling that provided the margin of victory. But that you don't have to be an "ELITE QB" to put up stat-line like that. He made the plays when he needed to and he didn't make one mistake or take sack. If most teams could have their QB's play solid and mistake free football week in and week out they'll always be in contention for a championship.

We disagree a bit, but thanks for keeping things civil.

2 hours ago, Growl said:

it’s remarkable there’s still people trying to resist this

People really aren't resistant to the idea that you need strong QB play to win a championship. We're resistant to the idea that giving up a several of our #1, #2 and possibly #3 draft picks in the in the 2023-2025 drafts to move up to get Bryce Young and CJ Stroud (neither is a sure bet to excel in the NFL) in the draft. 

Contrary to popular opinion, our roster is not that strong. We have some nice pieces in place. But we are not a stacked team by any measure. 

Our defensive tackles combined for 2 sacks on the season. One player (Brian Burns) is responsible for 12.5 of our 35 team sacks, and a segment on this board actually wants to trade him. Our 2nd leading pass rusher was a LB (Luvu had 7 sacks) we acquired in free agency. One D-lineman had 5 sacks, another had 2.5. No one else had more 1. Several didn't have any.

Our Secondary had 10 INTs. Our Safeties didn't have any of them. A player who almost missed half the season was tied for 2nd on the team (2 INTS) with CJ Henderson who didn't miss a game. Our best corner had 3. The other 3 came from Luvu, Brown and Roy, the latter two are DT's.

Christian was the 2nd leading receiver in 2022, despite playing half the season with another team. Outside of DJ, no wideout eclipsed 30 catches this year. Our TE's are not passing threats. They combined for 3 TD's (all by Tremble) and would not start on any team in the NFL. 

Shaq and Luvu had over 100 tackles. No other LB eclipsed 50.

We could try to trade up and pick Stroud or Young, but we'd have to mortgage the future to do it. How do we fill the holes at DE, DT, OLB, S, WR, TE, and CB if we give away #1 ,#2 picks, #3 picks in 2023, 2024 and 2025?

We can sit still at #9, grab a QB, and find starters for half of those positions in this years draft with our #2 and # 3 draft choices alone. Or you can grab BPA at #9,  draft a rookie to groom later in the draft, and still fill multiple holes.

And, if you did hold off on a QB this year (not ideal, but it could happen), we would literally be able to move up to a higher spot and part with draft choices in 2024 to get our for two reasons:

1) We'd have most of our holes already filled.

2) Every drafted starter on our team would be on their rookie deal in 2024 with the exception of Moton and DJ who have already been resigned and Burns who would be FA at the end of 2023.

11 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

Your mention of Jalen Hurts makes my point.  The only QBs in the game were both MVP candidates.  This is also the worst team Mahomes has ever been on and he still came in and performed.  

I'm not suggesting QBs are all you need.  I suggested as much in my initial post.  I'm saying that the proof is in the pudding.  Almost every championship of the past 20+ years was won by a top tier QB.  Gone are the days of a defense holding opponents to 15 points per game while the QB slogs through the mud and they run the ball 40 times a game.  There are only a few very rare exceptions.

Good post. But, QB's just don't "will their teams to victory". QB's don't block, catch passes (at least most of the time), make tackles, intercept passes and force fumbles, kick FG's, or run back kicks. You put a Mahomes, Brady, or Montana on a team that cannot competently do all of the above on a consistent basis, or when it matters most, they won't win SB's.

If you put a Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles, Jim Plunkett, Jeff Hostetler on a team that does all of the above very well and the the latter guys don't turn the ball over & make three or four big plays per game, and get the ball out on time, you can win with them.

None of the top tier QB's you allude in your post to played on bad/mediocre teams.

19 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

You need look no further than the past 20 or so super bowls.  All but a few were won by a top tier QB.  Yes, other pieces are needed, but you've gotta have a QB.  It is just so incredibly rare for a good team to mask bad QB play, and that will almost always end up getting exposed when you go up against the better teams in the league.

It's a team game. There are no "one man gangs" in pro football. A great QB needs help on both sides of the ball to win championships. I grew up watching Dan Fouts lead "Air Coryell" threw most of the 1980's. Probably the best offense of the 80's in terms of yardage and points per game. They never made a SB b/c the defense couldn't stop anyone when it mattered in the playoffs

Jalen Hurts played the game of his life last night...and lost. His fumble ended up being a factor in the loss, but if the Eagle defense and Special Teams had played better in the 2nd half he'd have a SB ring right now.

Even Mahomes needed a defensive TD in the first half and big punt return/ST play that swung momentum in the 2nd half to win the game.

Football is the ultimate team sport. You don't have to be great in all 3 phases of the game (Offense, Defense, Special teams). But, if you are mediocre to bad in any one of them you won't win a Super Bowl.

1 hour ago, Khyber53 said:

Offensive lines win or lose championships...

Great point. Look at the difference between the offensive line play in KC’s last two SB appearances.They couldn’t keep pressure off of Mahomes in the Tampa game or run the ball and got blown out.

KC kept pressure off of Mahomes last night (I don’t think they even gave up a sack in the game),  ran the ball well, and won their 2nd Super Bowl in 4 years.

32 minutes ago, cookinbrak said:

With almost a minute left. Plenty of time for Phil to tie it up.

Or or score a a TD to win the game.

8 minutes ago, NanuqoftheNorth said:

"Great quarterbacks win championships"

- Dan Marino has now entered the conversation

https://www.nbcsports.com/football/nfl/best-qbs-never-win-super-bowl-0#:~:text=Marino played in one Super,league six times in completions.

I’ve never seen a QB win a Super Bowl that didn’t have a strong supporting cast on both sides of the all. Teams, not QBs, win championships. That’s why it would be ridiculous for us to trade away multiple high draft choices in multiple years to move up the 1st or 2nd spot in the draft to grab a QB. Outside of our O-line and possibly our RB tandem, what other position group in is actually strong on our team?

We need help at DE, DT, LB, S, CB, WR, TE in addition to QB. The only reason we almost won the NFC South is because we played in the worst division in football in 2022. If a team claims the title at 8-9, even a 6-11 team can say “we only finished 2 games out first place”. 
 

Just now, CamWhoaaCam said:

Stafford went to a superteam.

We can't provide Carr with that so I don't get your point on Stafford.

 

Stafford is living proof that a bad franchise can keep a player form reaching his potential or ultimate goal of winning a championship.

We haven't had a winning season since 2017.

We haven't had back to back winning season in our 28 year history.

We've been so bad since Tepper acquired the team that I'd be happy to make the playoffs, win the division title and  finish above .500 two years in a row. 

24 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

If you blame the franchise for his mistakes than he is not a franchise QB.

 

Burrow turned around the Bengals. If you're that guy success will follow.

 

Carr had a top 5 TE and the best WR in football. Lamar Jackson never had those type of weapons.

First statement isn't entirely true. A great QB can elevate a bad franchise, but he can't win a SB with an inept front office. The Lions front office was bad for years. Barry Sanders and Calving Johnson retired at their peak rather than continue playing for them.  Matt Stafford coudn't win a playoff game in Detroit. He goes to LA and wins a SB in his first year there. He was added to a franchise that had already pieces in place to complement his game. Then they went out and acquird OBJ midseason. 

I see you didn't bother all the great players Carr had on defense while he's been there  Oh wait, you cant because the Raiders really haven't had any except Kahlil Mack, and they traded him Bears before his rookie deal was up because they didn't want to pay him. 

Burrow had Tee Higgins and Ja'marr Chase to throw to in his 2nd season. That defense improved significantly between 2021 and 2022, and may be the most underrated defensive unit in football. Joe Mixon is solid at RB. No way he get to the playoffs, much less the SB, with the team that  the Bengals put on the field in 2021.

Lamar doesn't have all-pro WR's to throw to but their offensive schemes and running gameput points on the scoreboard and the Ravens alway seem to have a defense formidable enough  to keep them competitive year in and year out.

Like I said, I'm not a Carr fan. But let's be honest. How may QB's do you think could have won a SB with the Raiders franchise during the past 25 years?

47 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

That's true but not on this forum.

 

You got people suggesting Derek Carr over a franchise MVP QB Lamar Jackson.lmao

 

Some people just don't know football.

 

Don't believe go check out the Derek Carr thread. People really want that to lead us to a SB. Like dude has 1 playoff appearance in his entire career and he's 32 wtf!

 

I love you guys but some of you are funny as sh!t!

I'm not a Derek Carr fan. As I said in an earlier post I'm indifferent to him. But, he's had the misfortune of playing with the Raiders, one of the most dysfunctional franchises in the NFL.  Carr entered the league in 2014. Look at the coaches that he's played for.

He's played for five different coaches in 9 years, and only one of them has a winning record. He may share some of the blame for the Raider lack of success, but it defintely isn't all on him. These aren't the Raiders I grew up with in the late 70's and early 80's. Their front office leaves a lot to be desired.

Check our the link below to see how just bad they've been for the past 25 years. Their dysfunction started a long time before David Carr joined that team.

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/raiders-head-coaches-since-2014 

As far as Lamar Jackson, I love watching him play. But, if we want to compete for a SB we need a QB who is actually going to stay healthy enough to play in the postseason. He literally hasn't finished the last two seasons but it appears he wants to set the market with his next contract. His playoff record is 1-4 with no trips to the AFC title game. He hasn't exactly lit it up in the post season either.

BTW, I'm all in on drafting a rookie and grooming him to lead the team for the rest of the decade. I won't be disappointed at all if we pass on Carr (no pun intended). But, I don't think he's a scrub QB either. Don't forget that he also played in a division with a KC team that hasn't played a road playoff game since Mahomes took over as starter and won 2 of the last 4 Super Bowls.

9 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

That photo is the definition of defensive holding. The refs were asked to crack down on it this year…. And boy did they choose the moment to crack down….

As well the should. But, to even things out they need to crackdown on WR "push-offs" and all of the pick plays we see on the rub route. I enjoyed tonight's game. But playing defense in football is harder than playing defense in any other sport. And every year it seems to get harder.

Maybe they should eliminate tackling next so the offenses can score every time they get the ball.

It would be great for everyone's fantasy team.

15 minutes ago, BrisbanePanther said:

If that's the case then trade Brown. Either way, Chicago was like one of those dog doors on D this year. Carolina can send someone on D (even Shaq) as part of a package and Chicago will be better than they were this year. They need proven players more than they need additional picks. Someone from Carolina's D stops them from bidding against themselves as much during free agency.

Brown would be much easier to replace than Burns. He's a good player, but  so far he hasn't shown that he's a player that you build your defense around.

On a serious note, how much do you think Brown is worth to another team? I would be surprised if we got more than a 3rd for him.

I don't get the "trade Burns" argument. We had a total of 35 sacks last season. Burns had 12.5 of them. That means literally 1 out of every 3 sacks we had was recorded by Burns..

A LB Frank Luvu (7 sacks) was second  on the team with 7.  No other lineman had more than 5. For all the talk of Derrick Browns improvement he only has one sack. Our DT combined for a total of 2 sacks on the season. 

We just can't assume we can replace that type of sack production in 2023 if we traded him for a haul of draft picks.

We need to add players to the line to complement our best pass rusher. Trading him would make our defense worse.

The great entertainers seems to be able to keep you eyes glued to them if they're on the stage with just a couple of people or even by themselves. If you took away dancers and she was on that stage by herself that show would have totally forgettable.

12 minutes ago, Basbear said:

Mike Varbel is as good as any HC currently. B O B before he got GM duties was 2x playoffs and i thinks hes still got a winning record. Not the pros, but Nick Saban is the greatest college HC and still going top 4 strong. 

Now the others are petty bad, though Flores was on good path....

I know Vrabel played for Bill Belichik, but did he actually work as a coach under him in NE? 

1 minute ago, WaterBoy said:

 

You know, I really can't balme him for that. They decided to go in a different direction, which is well within their right. Carr responds by saying I'm going to pick where I go and I'm not going to let you get anything in return for kicking me to the curb. I love it!

1 hour ago, Smithers said:

QBs take time to develop.  I like Matt and hope he’s the real deal.  My dad is an Eagles fan and hates Jalen Hurts until this season.  Give the kid time with competent coaching 

Good point.

Trevor Lawrence looked great at the end of 2022. The year before he had 3 games in which he threw 3 INTS.  He even had 4 INTS in the first half of this years playoff game against the Chargers. He had 12 TDs and 17 INTS in 2021. This year those stats were 25 TDs and 8 INTS!

Matthew Stafford threw 20 INTs in his rookie season

Peyton Manning holds the rookie record with a whopping 28 INTs

Those guys have one thing in common, they were all taken with the first pick of the draft. They're given more opportunities to mature/improve because 1) the investment the team has made in them and 2)they all went to terrible teams that needed rebuilding.

Guys taken after the 1st round are usually looked down upon because of their draft position. Anyone picked after round one is automatically labeled a "non-franchise QB". In the right environment these guys could turn out to be just just as good or better than they guys picked ahead of them. Unfortunately, most of them want get the chance because teams will likely panic if they don't excel immediately and decide to go all in for a guy in the top 10.

We haven't seen Corral take a live snap in a regular season game under the guidance of a competent NFL coaching staff and large number of the fans on this board have already written him off. 

I'm not a big fan of Carr. I don't have a dislike for him either. I'm sort of indifferent exactly. But, I think it's pretty evident that he's better than any QB we've had since Cam's last healthy season (2017). We probably would have won our division by a couple of games last year if Carr had put up the numbers he had in Las Vegas last season. (24 TD, 14 TDs, 3,522yds and passer rating of 86.3). If we somehow ended up signing him, I wouldn't be thrilled...but I wouldn't jump off of a cliff either. He'd immediately be the best QB in our putrid division. Under the guidance of Reich, McCown, and whoever we hire at OC I think we'd be the odds on favorite to win our division in 2023, which would guarantee us a home playoff game.

11 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

For the bears to even consider going back all the way to 9 the starting point is 3 firsts and probably 2 seconds to even open up the dialogue

That would be a really dumb move on our part. 

1 minute ago, ncfan said:

My Question is

what are the “major pieces” in football outside of a #1WR, #1 CB, a top Edge Rusher, and a LT?

Based on salary the 4 major pieces would be (QB, LT , CB , Pass rusher...usually DE, but Aaron Donald would be an exception at DT). Those are the highest paid positions because they are the hardest to fill. 

When I referred to pieces I was referring to our team across the board in terms of the depth chart.

If you had an all-pro at each position of those positions you won't make the playoffs if the rest of the team is trash.

Our team is looking good on the O-line. We should be even better if we resign Bozeman at Center.

RB: Freeman and Hubbard played well last season.  That tandem could be even more effective in 2023 with Frank Reich overseeing things.

WR: DJ belongs in the NFL. He's a solid two at worst. Possibly even a #1 in the right offense. Outside of him how many of our WR's could have started on another team in the NFL and ben a true offensive threat in 2022?

TE: 42 receptions combined for our 3 TE's on the roster and 3 TD's (all from Tremble) 

Our D-line is a problem. Outside of Burns (12.5 sacks), we don't have much in terms of the pass rush. Do you know who finished 2nd in sacks in 2022? Frankie Luvu (7 sacks). The next highest d-lineman in terms of sacks was Marquis Haynes (5).  Gross-Matos had 2.5. For all of the talk of Derrick Brown improving (which he did) he finished the season with the same number of sacks as Jeremy Chinn...(1 sack).  We could use an interior lineman to collapse the pocket and/or a beast to come from the LE spot.

LB: Luvu was a pleasant surprise last year (111 tackles, 7 sacks). Shaq led the team in tackles (135). He's steady and provides some veteran leadership. But he's not an elite player. He had 0.5 sacks and no INT's. No other LB on our roster had 50 tackles.

CB/S: JC led the team with 3 INTS despite missing 3 games. Donte finished in a tie with CJ Henderson (17 games) for  second on the team with (2) despite missing the last 8 games of the season. We had 3 others players with one INT each (Luvu, Brown, and Roy). Our team had 10 INT's for the season. Two of our defensive tackles had more INTs than Safeties, who had NONE in 2022.

---

We need to use those extra picks and put some playmakers at Safety, LB, WR, and the D-line. We could honestly use another CB. We saw how bad we looked without JC and Donte out there down the stretch.

18 hours ago, ncfan said:

So your alright with throwing 2 1st rd picks back to back at a QB3-4 in a draft class

vs spending. 2-3 1sts for a QB1-2 in a class?

Yes. A lot of us feel this way. If we drafted a QB at #9 and he succeeds we'll all be happy. I think the top 4 (Young, Stroud, Levis , and Richardson) could all do well in Carolina with Reich as our new HC. The man just seems to understand offensive football.  I feel he'd help each of them maximize their potential and at worst make them serviceable QB's.

We'd still have the following picks:

* Our own 2nd rounder. 

13 hours ago, TheSpecialJuan said:

1) Carolina Panthers (from CHI): Bryce Young, QB, Alabama

Trade Compensation: Carolina Panthers receive pick No. 1; Chicago Bears receive 9, 39, 93, 2024 first-round pick, and 2024 third-round pick.

As it stands, the Carolina Panthers do not have a definitive answer at quarterback. Matt Corral did not feature as a rookie, and pinning the success of a new regime to the third-round selection from last year would be a bold start to the Frank Reich era.

The Panthers make a big move to go and get the top QB option available in Bryce Young. They have good pieces scattered across the roster and can afford to pay up to go from ninth to first in this 2023 NFL Mock Draft.

This would be a solid landing spot for Young’s fantasy value. The offensive line isn’t perfect, but it has some good pieces. In DJ Moore, Terrace Marshall Jr., Shi Smith, Laviska Shenault, and Tommy Tremble, there are at least some capable weapons. Young may not deliver huge production as a rookie, but he has a QB-friendly head coach, and the Panthers could add some pieces in free agency.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/2023-nfl-mock-draft-raiders-get-aaron-rodgers-hendon-hooker-heads-to-new-orleans/

Usually, when you see proposals like this the teams try to equalize the deal in terms of the point value for draft choices. The team that moves up tends to get a couple of lower selections to balance things out. We don't appear to be getting anything in this deal besides the #1 draft choice. We're exchanging first round picks with the Chicago and giving then 4 other selections. I'd have to pass on this one unless all of the pieces were in place except for a franchise QB.

2 minutes ago, amcoolio said:

I'm not particularly impressed with either. I'd rather trade for Justin Fields than take either of these two, and I didn't like Fields during that draft either. Certainly not AR at 9, it would have to be a trade down and "oh look, he's still there" type of scenario

I don't buy into the Justin Field hype. He makes big plays with his legs. That's about it. He isn't a great passer and gets hurt too much. The latter is really bad for a QB that is more dangerous with his legs than his ability to throw from the pocket. I'd be hesitant to give up anything for him unless it was 3rd round pick  or lower. 

I will say that he's had the misfortune of playing for a bad franchise in terms of QB play and offensive coaching. Our team is better in terms of depth which would help him.  A coach like Frank Reich would surely make him better .But I don't think adding him makes us a championship contender overnight. He'd need a couple of years to really learn how to play within the pocket use his legs as a 2nd, not 1st, option.

4 minutes ago, ncfan said:

And that’s why you never scout the Helmet and scout the player.

Texas Tech and LSU had a Amazing history with NFL QBs before the 2 guys in the NFL now did they?  

KC traded to move up and get Mahomes at #10, but they were a playoff team before Patrick arrived with Alex Smith as QB.  They could afford to part with the drafts because:

a) they didn't have to move all the way up to #1 or #2 which would have been a lot more expensive.

b) they were already a playoff team without him as previously stated. Mahomes had the luxury of sitting on the bench his rookie year.

The Bengals didn't have to move up to get Burrow. They had the #1 pick in 2020. They were also able to get Tee Higgins in round 2 the same year. The next season they added Jamar Chase in the 1st round. They may have the best 1-2 punch in terms of young WR's (under 25) in the NFL. They wouldn't have been able to do that if they had traded up from a lower number spot in the top 10 to get Burrow and parted with next year's # 1 as a result.

If the team is solid, I'm all for moving up and getting your guy (like KC). When you have holes that could be filled with those high draft choice, keep adding talent and depth to roster so any QB who comes along (trade, draft, or FA) has the tools on the roster to succeed.