SCO96

Even with those extra picks we wouldn’t be any better…at least with Scott as GM. He’d probably use those picks on WR’s who can’t get open , a Tackle that is better suited to play Guard, or trade down for value so we can acquire more JAGs.

1 hour ago, Wanderlai said:

Bryce is no doubt the worst of the 4 QBs and we moved to #1 to take him. Forget CJ who is killing it every Sunday, AR in his short debut showed Cam flashes and Levitz has been slinging it to. Bryce looks like a Disney movie where a kid gets to be an NFL QB only it’s a fuging nightmare. 

I have always hated the idea of trading away valuable draft capital to move up to draft a QB when the team is bad. Several us said that we needed to either:

a) stand pat and take a QB if he falls to us (which would have happened with Will Levis.

b) use the 2023 draft to solidify the roster by filling in the weak spots and then attempt to move up if needed to nab our guy in 2024.

Half the folks on this board felt the opposite and said we had to get someone this year. I can only imagine the discord on this board if we had chosen Levis. Now, we lost our #2 pick in 2023, our #1 pick in 2024, another #2 in 2025 and our best receiver (DJ Moore). To make matters our drafts have been terrible the past two years. We have one of the worst offensive rosters in the league and this is arguably the worst offense the team has ever fielded. 

This team is doomed if it moves forward with Scott F at GM. Bryce certainly looks like a bust. But, I'd still like to see what he would do if we had a solid O-line to keep him upright, a coach that would actually help on his mechanics, and a scheme that is better suited to take advantage of his (limited) abilities. 

PS---BY got to learn how to play more snaps under center.

2 hours ago, Pantha-kun said:

I doubt theyre drafting a QB with R2 pick its probably smarter to build the team up first and then draft a QB in 2025. 

While I agree with you from a logical standpoint, If Pennix is there it'd be hard to pass up on him. We need someone who can push the ball downfield. It's hard to have an effective passing game when Defenders have no respect/fear that the ball is ever going more than 7-10 yards in the air.

I was in favor of doing what you suggested for the 2023 season. Then try to move up if needed to nab a guy in the 2024 draft class. I would have been content to sign a guy like Dalton to serve as a bridge in 2023-2024 and keep PJ Walker and some other guy to back him up until the franchise guy arrived.

5 hours ago, OceanRider said:

Im not a football genius, but the team is not complete yet- I don’t believe that it’s for not trying though-

The above opinion was realized by about half of this board last year. It's why we didn't think this was the year to make the deal. We should have used all of our picks and solidified the roster. There are about 4-5 high prospects coming out in 2024. We could have traded up and put whoever we got in a much better situation than the one Bryce inherited.

At the same time, all of the trades or signings won't amount to ANYTHING if the current FO stays intact. Our drafts our terrible. I don't know if it's due to the scout giving the FO bas intel, of the FO ignoring the advice of the scouts. All I know is that I shudder at the thought of Fitterer overseeing things for the next couple of years.

Even since one of our guys on the forum (I think it was the Casillas) pointed out BY's footwork I've made it analyze during the game or afterwards on highlight footage. His drop-back technique is bad. He also needs to learn how to play under center. NFL level coaches should be able to pick up on these type of flaws in training camp and help the player improve. What exactly is Josh McCown doing for Bryce? Frank Reich used to play QB in the NFL. These 2 should have addressed this months ago. They should also be able to come up with better plays along with Thomas Brown for the gameplan.

If this short video (1 minute 5 seconds) has already been posted the I'd like to apologize beforehand. I think what Ian says about our offense speaks volumes about our play design...and receiver talent.

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1723027137727287496?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1723027137727287496|twgr^21f75dc2be0c3a4f455eb05682e448933230b701|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcatcrave.com%2Fposts%2F4-personnel-decisions-carolina-panthers-regret-2023-midseason-point

1 minute ago, rodeo said:

I'm all for bubble screens and the style of offense we run, if we had the personnel to run it. We don't, everyone can see that, but the coach stubbornly refuses to adapt. When it's to the point that idiots like media talking heads and fans can say "they're running agility based zone blocking with large power linemen" but the coaches keep doing it, there's a major problem.

That seems to be the Panthers curse (or a problem with coaches in general). The Panthers always seem to end up with coaches who have an idea and then sink or swim with the idea, and never adapt to circumstances or things not working.

Years ago Bum Phillips praised Don Shula by saying:

"He can take his and best yours, and he can take yours and beat his". Bum was saying that Shula was able to take what he had and get them most out of them by clever game planning. Sometimes you can be outmatched and still be competitive against a more talented team.

Our offense struggles every week. It doesn't matter HOW GOOD (MIAMI and DETROIT) or HOW BAD (Chicago w/a backup QB) the team is. That comes down to coaching. The scheme we are running have isn't suited for the players on the field.  I don't think the current staff has the creativity to turn this ship around. Our talent may not be great, but there are a lot of coaches (or soon to be coaches) who wouldn't be 1-8 with the our current roster.

10 minutes ago, SCO96 said:

I'm neither pro nor anti 

Oops. My full text didn't post. Sorry about that.

I think Tepper is trying to hard to win. He brought back Cam when he felt the team needed a spark under Rhule. He tried to bring in veteran QBs two years in a row to help the offense. He got rid of Rhule when he saw the team was going nowhere with him at the helm.

Tepper knows it's an offensive game today. He hired our first offensive minded head coach to bring us into the modern era. When he got the new coach gave him everything he asked for on the coaching staff. New DC, new OC, new QB coach, new WR coach, new RB coach and hired an assistant head coach (Jim Caldwell) to oversee everything. All the pundits said Bryce had everything in place to succeed as a rookie.

Now we are worse than we were last year. Tepper may have influenced the Young selection. Even if he did, I can't fault him. Even the media said it was a toss up between Young and Stroud. I think he's got the wrong people in place. More on this later. Gotta go to work now.

I'm neither pro nor anti 

15 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

I have no idea how you kick that field goal with piniero.

Everyone knows he doesn't have the leg, don't even blame the kicker, that choice was just asinine.

Despite converting 3 out of 3 on 4th down tonight, I just don’t think Reich had any faith in Bryce…and the pathetic passing game…to convert that 4th and 10. I believe that near INT on the play before the FG attempt probably had a lot to do with that decision.

As bad as we’ve been this year I’d have gone for it on 4th down. But, I don’t think we would have got it. All the Bears had to do was drop guys back to 1st down mark in pass coverage  and sit down. Our pass blocking is bad and Bryce isn’t much of a threat to throw a 10 yard pass in our offense.

18 minutes ago, BrianS said:

What I see is a guy who is moving very slowly and tentatively.  He is NEVER set with a good base to throw from.  When he gets to the top of his drop, he starts to look very twitchy.  These are deadly problems to a guy who doesn't have a great arm.

Now, conversely, go watch the film below.  Watch his feet.  Purposeful, concise, solid.  He OFTEN throws with an excellent base and subsequently is able to make the most of his arm.  Several solid downfield throws.  Particularly watch the velocity of the ball when he sets with good base.

Good post. At times the Bryce throwing passes at BAMA looks like a totally different guy than the Bryce throwing passes with the Panthers. Something HAS CHANGED. When I started this thread I began by saying his throwing mechanics are terrible. They weren't at Alabama. He would have never won a Heisman or gone in the first round of the 2023 draft if his game tape in college looked like his game tape in this NFL season.

3 minutes ago, PootieNunu said:

4 minutes ago, PootieNunu said:

I really dont think we have the next 2-3 seasons, We have next season if Bryce is still terrible we will be looking for a QB in the draft again.

I was looking at it from a contractual standpoint. 3 more years plus the 5th year. I think we have to make a decision on the option after his 3 season (2025)

 

5 minutes ago, PootieNunu said:

I dont ever see BY lining up under center for a significant amount of snaps. He cannot do it or we would be doing it by now with half of the season gone. 

It doesnt get much easier than throwing most of your passes 5 yards or less. Most bootlegs. and roll outs require you to be under center as well.

You may be correct on that. I think it would still be worth a try if we had a better offensive line and passing concepts to build on.

 

7 minutes ago, PootieNunu said:

The Alabama playbook poo sounds like Mac Jones, how is that working out?

 

I meant the Panthers should find a set of passing plays that Bryce was really comfortable with in college and work them into the game plan. Something was obviously working at BAMA...He did win the Heisman trophy.

40 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

fair points however its pretty clear he isnt athletic, he doesnt have elite arm strength, hell he doesnt have nfl average arm strength and his height is hindering his play.   I dont see any of those things getting better regardless if he has the best roster in the nfl around him.   Those factors are always going to come into play

I'll begin by saying that I don't totally disagree with you. I was never in favor of a bad team giving up substantial draft capital and their best WR for any QB, especially a 5'10/185 QB.

That said, we've got the next 2-3 seasons. It's the teams job and responsibility to put Bryce in a situation to succeed. This is going to sound arrogant, but I bet if you, me and a dozen huddlers got together we could probably come up scheme up more opportunities for Bryce to make big plays down the field than the current staff has done this season.

1) Every QB loves a good running game. Wilks had us averaging over 4.5 yards per carry last year...with practically the same offensive line. We need to get a big back in the off-season, preferably a rookie in the mid rounds WITH FRESH LEGS and let the o-line block down hill. If the running game is clicking it sets up the play action passing game. But for this to work the running game has to be effective and Bryce has "GOT TO PLAY A SIGNIFICANT AMOUT OF SANPS UNDER CENTER"   in the passing game to keep the defense honest

2) You have to find a WR or TE who can consistently get separation with his route running. I don't care what his 40 time is. If he can't beat press coverage and get in and out of his breaks quickly we don't need him...at least not as our #1 option

3) Set up some easier throws for Bryce. You can't do it too many time per games. But, it wouldn't hurt to move the pocket to the right or left on occasion. He'd only have to read half of the field and could and allow him to get the ball out quicker.  We could also have a couple of bootlegs sprinkled into the playbook. We can't do e above plays too often but if used correctly we should be able to get some big plays downfield.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nTl3CRrsHM. Rob Ryan goes over some of this in this 4:00 video. Bryce may be small, but he isn't stupid. I think he could master something like this in a short period of time.

4) Revisit the Alabama playbook and take the concepts that he's most comfortable with.

5) Add some gimmicks. Flea flicker via the RB or a WR reverse. The Philly special in the red-zone. Hook and Ladder laterals after pass. Bryce needs to be involved in some big plays. If he could make some big plays during the game his confidence would improve. A confident Bryce Young could help us win some games going forward.

7 hours ago, QuitBitching said:

Lol. Joe Flacco wasn't a level 2 guy. He straight up won the SB for them. They dont even make the playoffs if not for him. Even the yr b4 when they shouldve beat the pats it was because of him

I actually had a little difficulty putting him in category 2. Flacco was great for a the first half of his career  in the 2010's.  He had a strong supporting cast ... especially on defense...a great head coach....and a great GM. After he got his big deal...and the the defense started to age IMHO he didn't carry  the team going forward  like I thought he would. 

Good...almost great...QB in his prime. But, he was never top 5. Brady, Manning, Brees. Big Ben, and Phillip River were great for a longer period of time in his own conference (AFC) Still, I have no problem with your perspective. The top 4 are considered all time greats. Rivers is a borderline Hall of Famer. Do you think the majority would feel the same about Joe Flacco. He finished his career as a backup. That never happened to the first four on the list.

33 minutes ago, *FreeFua* said:

I skimmed through it. More of the same crap it’s been all year. This roster/coaching staff is a mess

Thanks for posting this. I already watched it when you posted it under another topic. It’s telling that a guy that doesn’t dissect game film for a living is able to point out so many flaws in our passing game.

15 minutes ago, Mage said:

I mean Jared Goff sucked with Jeff Fisher.  It was a bad situation.

Yeah sure ideally you draft Peyton Manning's at No. 1, but that isn't realistic.  But it isn't unprecedented for a No. 1 pick to need a different environment to succeed.

I agree with your last statement. Better coaching can create a “different environment”.  Sean McVey was light years ahead of Jeff Fisher  offensive game planning and almost won a SB with Goff.

Bart Starr played his entire career in Green Bay. He payed under Vince Lombardi from 1959-1967. His 5 championships came between 1961-1967. In the 7 seasons he played w/out Lombardi ( 3 before he arrived and 4 after left the team )as his head coach he had 1 winning season: 5-4 in 1969. 
 
Footnote: The Packers were 1-10-1 the year before Lombardi arrived (1958). I read some place that the only all-time Packer greats that Lombardi drafted were Herb Adderley (cb) and Dave Robinson (olb). All of the other great players who played on those dynastic teams from the 1960s were already there when he took over in 1959. Those guys went 7-5 in 1959. Lost the NFL title game in 1960…and then won 5 over the next 7 years. That dude just knew how to get the best out of people.   I’m not expecting any coach to do that in this era. But, Bryce needs someone who is really going to  coach him if he wants to succeed as a QB at the NFL level.

Did any of you have time to watch the entire clip?

One of our members posted some all 22 footage last month. He was the first person to call attention to BY’s footwork. His drop back isn’t smooth. You can see it in the video. Also when he passes he doesn’t always step into his throws. Poor velocity leads to inaccuracy and turnovers. A guy like Cam was so strong in his prime that he could get away with that in games. Young can’t.

It doesn’t help matters to see the O-line allowing too much pressure up the middle & from the blindside. Sometime he doesn’t have time to set his feet. 
 

This team needs to totally revamp the passing game. You can’t win in the NFL if your QB can’t make big plays downfield.

16 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Love Bryce the person, but cmon bro he's not reading the field at all. That was supposed to be his biggest strength. If he's struggling with that part then he has nothing else to rely on as he lacks arm strength.

 

I've seen enough to confidently say he won't ever be a "franchise QB". Those guys usually show you signs right away. Bryce at best will be middle of the pack. This is coming from one of his main supporters during the draft. Sometimes you just have to tell the truth.

I actually agree with you. I don't see him ever being elite. But, he can be a lot better than he is now. I think strong coaching and a better supporting cast would at least help him reach his peak.

NFL scout/commentator Bucky Brooks put it best. There are two types  of QBs in the NFL

1) QBs that pull the wagon most of the time 

2) QBs that need the wagon to pull them a lot of the time

True franchise quarterbacks fall in the first category. 

But, we've seen level 2 guys win championships on solid teams (Jim McMahon, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WujqkKtaQ6w

To say Bryce had a bad day is an understatement. After watching this I actually felt a little better. There are three things holding him back. This video has every drop back from week 9
 

1) We all know that the offensive line has been terrible with their pass blocking. That can be fixed. 

2) Bryce could be a lot better if he were better coached. His footwork and throwing mechanics are bad. I think that why he can’t drive the ball downfield. I think strong QB coaching would do wonders for his game.

This staff has got to step up or be replaced if Young is gonna succeed in Carolina.

3) WR are none factors  most of the time.

All 3 of the above can be fixed, but I don’t have faith in the current FO and coaching staff to make things better.

20 minutes ago, Buckeye Homer said:

I think many Carolina fans are overreacting with negativity.  They knew this was a development year.  They also knew that this team had a lot of needs that were't going to be filled this year.  Obviously Carolina MUST make solid picks in next year's draft (sucks not having a #1) and, I presume, there is plenty of salary cap space to sign some quality free agents.  Carolina will be better next year.  In two years Carolina may very well be able to compete for a division title and a playoff berth.  In the meantime, hang in there!  

I think you are overly optomistic

We played in a terrible division in 2022. The Buc won it with an 8-9 record. Had Wilks coached the entire season we probably would have scratched out 8-9 wins and won it ourselves. Our poor QB play as a whole held us back. The consensus seemed to be that we were a QB away from competing.

You don't give up multiple high draft choices and your best receiver... move up to to get a QB at #1... with the expectations that 2023 is a development year.

Our drafts have been bad to mediocre since Tepper bought team. Most Panther fans have no faith in the FO to pick the right players and sign the correct FA's. We haven't done it so far.  I don't think there is a team in the NFL that envys our roster. If the F.O  had done it's job over the past 5 seasons we would be on the verge our 6th straight losing season

I see no evidence of things turning around in the near future unless F.O. and scouting department is overhauled and they are replaced with people who actually know how to evaluate player talent.

23 minutes ago, frankw said:

The Commanders are as big of a dumpster fire as us they've given up 44 sacks compared to our 29 and still Howell is 4th in the league in passing yards per game and 7th in the league in touchdowns.

Enough with the excuses.

Question for you (or anyone else who wants to chime in). Do you think Howell's improving game play is due to his innate talent, the coaching (Eric Bienemy) or a combination of both?

I think its both. Howell has the physical tools to be a top 10 QB in the NFL. I also think Bienemy has been a big part of his development. The Chiefs have lost a lot at WR in recent years. But, I think that offense has lost some juice without Eric. I'm glad to see Sam play well, but I can't help but think he wouldn't be as good in Carolina drafted him in the 3rd round instead of Matt Corrall. Then again, it's been said that Reich likes big QB's. Maybe our offense would look better if Sam was throwing the ball instead of Bryce.

Thoughts?

2 hours ago, Dixieland said:

We should have chosen Levis with the 9th pick and not trade up (or trade down in ideal world).

Sometimes I will refuse to post for fear of getting flamed or causing dissension on the forum. Now that we’ve made our bed I can speak my peace. I and (several others I must add) thought trading up was a bad idea. The cost is expensive even  if you succeed. If you fail it can set a franchise back for years. I would have been cool with letting Levi’s fall to us at 9. I never understood why he was so despised in the first place. We would have kept our picks and had a QB who could at least push the ball downfield. But, if we had done that half of this board would have had a mental meltdown. I also would have been cool taking Howell in the 3rd or 4th round in 2022 and using all of the 2023 picks to build a solid cast around him.

A bad franchise should never give away multiple high choices in multiple seasons and pin their hopes on any rookie QB. If a team is competitive and has a solid roster on both sides of the ball you can afford to take a swing for the fences (Like the 49ers did with Lance…which was a huge mistake in hindsight). A good team like  SF was able to overcome Lance decision because they were good without him. The Chiefs were a playoff team the year before they moved up to draft Mahomes. Had he been a bust they still had a good, if not great QB, in Alex Smith.

Picking a QB in the the top 5 is not a a sure fire bet to win…or even get to…a SB

14 hours ago, Sean Payton's Vicodin said:

You have a dogshit team, no draft picks to fix it, your starting QB isn't good, a meddling owner etc.

Like, when Shitterer and Frank Wrong are fired, there will be other openings in the NFL. Any coach/GM worth his poo will hop on anything other than this shitshow.

Assuming Tepper makes a change, If a strong coaching candidate or GM has more than one option for the 2024 I can't see him viewing Carolina as Option A. Someone like an Eric Bienemy who has struggled to get a HC position, or a FO executive who has struggled to get a GM job, would probably take it just for the opportunity.

As you stated we have no 1st round draft choice. On offense we don't appear to have a franchise QB on the roster. We have a solid slot receiver but no real threats on the outside or at the TE position. Our run blocking is mediocre. At times our pass blocking is downright awful.

No consistent pass rush on defense. 1 solid player at LB. Our potential Pro Bowl CB is always hurt. No ball hawks lurk in the secondary. 

Not much on the current roster to work with. It would take a coaching genius (which we don't appear to have) to take the current roster and make them competitive. This means a GM with a shrewd gift for talent evaluation (which we don't appear to have) has to come in and find some draft day steals, overlooked gems from the undrafted guys, and fill in the other gaps with affordable free agents and solid trades.

That's a lot to overcome especially if you have an owner who may be a hindrance to your properly doing your job.

10 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

David Tepper has sucked the joy out of being a Panthers fan. We were never consistently good but we were good often enough to maintain hope. Tepper has taken hope out back and executed it unceremoniously.

Well put. Here's the ironic thing. Tepper was the one who was preaching that the franchise needed "sustained success" instead of "sustained mediocrity". Tepper was the one who cited the fact that Carolina has never had back to back winning season when he purchased the team.

Well, we may not have had back to back winning seasons prior to Tepper's arrival. But, we were never the laughingstock of the NFL either. We've been to two Super Bowls. Every other other year or Carolina was either a playoff team or at least competing for a playoff spot. Even in our down years we'd win 6-8 games per year and be somewhat competitive on the field.  Our franchise never came close to having 5 straight losing seasons (Six if you count the current year). We've had good/great players on the field who were exciting to watch on Sundays. Right now I don't believe we have one player on the roster that a fan of another fan would pay money to see. 

I was not upset when Jerry Richardson sold the team. I thought it would be the start of a new era of sustained success. Now, I long for the days of "sustained mediocrity". It's much better than "sustained suck"

5 minutes ago, CRA said:

99% of the NFL plays for paychecks.  Professional athletes in general.   If you want Higgins or whoever.....you can almost get anyone if the dollar says so. 

Your "hired mercenary" opinion is probably spot on for a lot of pro athletes. I would feel the same way if I were a low draft pick trying to cash in bigtime on my 2nd  contract. But, if I were already a millionaire (and Tee Higgins already is. He's made over $7mil prior to this season; and will have made $10 mil by the end of 2023 ), I'd want to go out and have fun week in and week out. I couldn't do that if I were playing for a mediocre/bottom tier franchise like Carolina. I'd 25% to 30% less to play for a solid competitor. Millionaires can always find ways to make even more money off of the playing field. But, we all have different ways of viewing things so I'm sure a lot of people on the forum would disagree with my point of view.