45catfan

6 minutes ago, Devil Doc said:

No, it is not a Federal Issue. It has been left up to the states. You are acting like the Government can just overstep, they can't. What can the Government do? Martial Law? That is about it. If there is a law created, it will take months to be enacted and voted on, just like States. Who cares if encouraging wearing a mask or social distancing isn't working, you think forcing laws or shamming people is going to do any better? You think the news telling people to fear the Virus is doing them any good? Cooper made things worse by doing a mask mandate.. instead of going through the proper channels and creating a law. All the Government can do, which they are, is provide support for testing and supplies. All the Government can do is run ads on TV about social distancing and mask wearing.. which they are. I think you overestimate the Federal Government capabilities, and what there role is. 

"Federalism is a compromise meant to eliminate the disadvantages of both systems. In a federal system, power is shared by the national and state governments. The Constitution designates certain powers to be the domain of a central government, and others are specifically reserved to the state governments."-Federalism

3 minutes ago, 4Corners said:

I don’t click links from untrustworthy sources (you). It’s probably some pizzagate conspiracy. You will not infect my computer. 

If nothing else, you give me a good chuckle man.  Thanks for the laugh.

17 hours ago, klumme said:

Well were I am from (Denmark) we pretty much did that, though without the masks. Now everything is open again, sport is open and with fans in the stands etc etc. 

Your death rate is 4.5% in Denmark and the US is 3.7%, FYI.  Also, the population of Denmark is the size of just one of our states, Colorado (5.8 million).  So yes, controlling the situation is your country would be much more manageable than a country of 330 million.  Unlike Europe, the COVID-19 response in America is handled at the local levels with recommendations from the Federal government.  So when you see the news about this being all Trump's fault, please understand that is was honestly handled at the state and local levels.  Like now how Governor Cuomo of New York and NYC's mayor De Blasio are now heroes in the media because of the improving COVID-19 statistics, they still have the highest death rate in all of America.  At the time, both of these guys were blaming the Federal government for the catastrophe in their state, but now, they take all the credit since things are improving.

20 hours ago, 4Corners said:

You are fake News 

Lol!  I sent you the link straight to the Federal Election Commission's website which was drilled down to the CDC's contributions.  That is fake news?  You are laughable.

19 minutes ago, Peon Awesome said:

How much do you have to be grasping at straws to defend Trump when your argument is "Well H1N1 wasn't as bad as it could have been!" It doesn't make Trump's disastrous handling of COVID suddenly good. Sorry man. This very weak version of whataboutism is incredibly sad.

As far as ICUs, I think your study supports my point far more than yours. So ICUs at their busiest are around 80% and on average in the 60s. July is one of the least busy times of the year,  but let's just throw you a bone since you need help and assume Miami was going into their absolute busiest season by chance. And then realize jumping from 80% to 120% is a damn big deal. We're saying the ICUs are used to being somewhere between half to 2/3 as full as they are now. For good measure, our hospital system's most recent numbers show us at 70% ICU capacity and we're doing all of our elective surgeries. And cases in NC have been hitting record levels. So for Miami to be that overrun in comparison just shows how bad things are. And they're not the only one. Several hospital systems throughout the country are panicking about potentially exceeding available resources. 

Finally, I completely stand by my point about elective surgeries not having an appreciable effect on ICU bed occupancy. I'll take my experience working on the frontlines in the hospital approaching 10 years over your N of 1 case of your dad. Long invasive surgeries ending in the ICU, sure not crazy. The number of elective surgeries that qualify as that are quite low. Elective surgeries are far far more likely to be same day or next morning discharges.

And finally what's the point of the CDC's political contributions? They don't make up the numbers. Hospitals report them and they publish them. And of course more of their contributions go to democrats. Scientists and well educated people in general lean democratic. It probably doesn't help the Republican party that they often ignore or downright deny science in many cases. Either way, it's more grasping at straws rather than facing the cold hard truth that we are not handing the COVID situation well compared to much of the rest of the world. Instead of pointing fingers and making excuses, we'd be better served to actually acknowledge that the problem exists and do something about it. But that doesn't seem to be this administration's preferred strategy and people like you let them get away with it rather than demand they do better when we deserve that much. 

Yep, and you look back at what you think should have been done differently during this pandemic.  Just a more current case of whataboutism, that's all.  I'm sure your 20/20 hind site going back to February is ironclad as what should have been done differently.  Please tell me how could we staved off this pandemic?  Locking down the entire county indefinitely and wearing masks 24/7 isn't realistic, so please enlighten me, how do we get rid of this in a real world scenario?

20 minutes ago, 4Corners said:

Link?

You want receipts, here you go.  Actblue, as you may well know, is a pass-through entity for the DNC.

CDC Political Contributions

2 minutes ago, Tbe said:

So what? Scientists and people with advanced degrees and high IQs aren’t exactly Trump’s demographic.
 

Just because someone votes a certain way or makes donations doesn’t mean they are idealogs. Their life’s work is to protect the US from deadly pathogens not engage in political brinkmanship. 
 

It’s obvious the anti-cdc and anti science stuff is coming from a political agenda. You’re being manipulated.

Folks in government bureaucracies often line the DNCs pockets.  Small and medium businesses lines the RNCs .  This is very, very common knowledge. 

I'm open to read/hear other views, but when more and more 'mistakes' are being uncovered at the foremost authority in the field of infectious disease in the world, something starts to stink.  Not just there, but at the state and local levels too.

1 minute ago, The NFL Shield At Midfield said:

Jesus Christ, quit trying to run damage control for our dogshit President and his amateur hour administration by blubbering about Obama.  It's not convincing.

I said many, many pages ago, minds were made up on this.  There is no convincing to do.

48 minutes ago, The NFL Shield At Midfield said:

How skewed do you think the stats are exactly.  Gotta be at least half of those deaths are falsely attributed to COVID, right?

140,000 dead.  It doesn't make a damn if 100, 1000, or even 10,000 of those deaths were falsely attributed to COVID because that's still a big fuging number.  It's real, it's killing people, and you can't bullshit your way out of it because the numbers are just too big.  We're past that point.  

Those numbers would be slashed if coronavirus had to be the primary cause of death.  As long as it can be said ...no matter how far of a stretch it being a factor in a persons death, it's going to remain high.  But sure lets continue to pad those numbers when people in hospice care test positive and die.

6 hours ago, Peon Awesome said:

It seems pretty clear you enjoy parrotting the inane talking points of the president, which I guess is why he does it. Yeah let's break from the rest of the world despite having the highest number of cases by far and stop tracking a highly virulent disease which helps identify outbreaks and control spread, as well as gives information on the safety of gradual opening of business and reduces the risk of overwhelming health care systems. And let's pretend because we stopped hypermonitoring H1N1 cases after a few months, a disease that was far less deadly and debilitating, that it's perfectly justifiable to do that for COVID. Just look how almost step by step the world is treating COVID like they did H1N1, huh? Even if you think that it wasn't the best decision to stop meticulously tracking H1N1, it would in no way excuse not closely tracking COVID now. Even Trump is trying to say it was terrible that they stopped tracking it. So he must acknowledge that if the US would stop tracking COVID now, it must be damn near criminal.

Look we get it. It's embarrassing for Trump how bad our numbers look compared to the rest of the world and I'm sure for his contingent of die-hard fans, nothing would be nicer than pretending the numbers don't exist. But sometimes the greater good and the interest of public health should be considered more important than the president's ego, as crazy as that might sound.

As it turned out in hind site.  So what steps were taken to mitigate H1N1 when the virus first broke out and being studied?  Answer, none.  Pure luck it wasn't highly lethal as Biden's former Chief of Staff later admitted in an interview (Ron Klain).  I'm not suggesting we stop tracking COVID-19, but what I am suggesting is the data is being hypermonitored, as you would, say for political ends and manipulated to a degree.

Regarding ICUs--ICU units stay mostly occupied a great deal of the time:

"Over the three years studied, total ICU occupancy ranged from 57.4% to 82.1% ..." from a study released in 2014. Here  So it's not a stretch for an ICU to go from 82% to 100% quickly.

Oh and only botched surgeries thing is a joke.  My father-in-law had back surgery, everything went well and he recovered his first couple of days in ICU before getting his own room.  Long, invasive surgeries that have a fairly lengthy recovery often have stint in ICU directly following the surgery.

The CDC isn't political?   How about 8,000+ donations to the DNC since 2015.  Trump got only THREE donations in 2016 for his campaign from people at the CDC.  A little bit skewed there I would say.  

Please continue.

Can this administration stop tracking the pandemic like the most recent one?  No, why not?

3 hours ago, The NFL Shield At Midfield said:

They love that story don't they.

Alright guys, you win.  Only 139,999 people have died from COVID-19.  Throw away those masks.

You win the cookie!  See, only a gullible person would dismiss one of many, many instances where the stats have been skewed.  If this were the only case...sure, dismiss it as an one-off.   It's not...not even close, and increasingly these "errors" are being uncovered.

Riddle me this:  Who is this White House official quoted regarding the pandemic--"...A pure fortuity this wasn't the greatest mass casualty event in American History?"

3 hours ago, Happy Panther said:

But motorcycle death.

Elective surgeries are allowed now.  But sure, 119% of ICU beds are COVID-19 patients.  Granted certain counties may be stretched like Miami-Dade, but state-wide?  Nah, not even close.  Twist a narrative into a pretzel. It's fun!!!

26 minutes ago, KSpan said:

For the sake of discussion let's say that fatality numbers are 20% too high when we factor in both deaths that aren't actually directly attributable to COVID or associated complications as well as deaths that were missed and aren't being counted... it changes nothing in the big picture since deaths are still over 110K and climbing rapidly. I also don't think the numbers are anywhere near 20% too high and again, it's about more than just deaths.

A large percent of deaths nationwide were/are in elderly care facilities.  Many of those folks had underlying issues and for those that did/will recover will struggle with the damage from COVID-19 in some fashion, no doubt.  Where this thing got out of control is when it could listed coronavirus as a "factor" in a person's death.  Primary reason, sure...I totally understand it.  A potential factor?  Nah, that can be twisted any imaginable way no matter how far stretched and it has.  Numerous errors in case reporting has happened too leading to the padding of numbers.

Just now, rippadonn said:

They don't want people voting in person. Why not?

Obvious.  I mean now Covid-19 causes fatal accidents on highways!

Politics is driving this whole thing, period.   Just our rotten luck a pandemic broke out in a presidential election year.

3 minutes ago, Bronn said:

If you see someone not wearing a mask in a public place, punch them in the face just like you would a Nazi.

From a moderator.  Does Igo condone this?

18 minutes ago, KSpan said:

Not sure what you're 'trying again' but as I and others have posted it's not only about deaths. A big part of this is that this infection is novel and its mechanism of action and risk factors are not yet fully clear, so no one knows what the long-term outcomes will be for either children or adults while the long-term outcomes of things like the flu are well known and documented.

Even if risk of child death does end up being ultimately higher with other seasonal circulating diseases, this specific discussion continues to ignore the risks to those who works in these environments. At least, however, as adults they have the option and (seemingly) cognitive ability to weigh the risks and make their own informed decisions.

Again, I speak this as someone who works in pharmaceutical development and disease research (having just left a company that is playing a large role in COVID tracking and tracing initiatives). There are comments in here about science being wrong and changing... and that's because that's what science is and does. It's about gathering information, organizing it as best it can be with what's available, and then drawing conclusions based on said information. In a dynamic situation like this one a balance must be struck between these analyses and informing action to be taken, and it does happen that new data leads to new conclusions.

Strange...not sure what I was talking about, but then again knew exactly what I was talking about.  A vaccine isn't around the corner as much as the media keeps hyping one.  The reason is very obvious.  Even so, it will likely be a seasonal vaccine and not a cure, likely with spotty effectiveness.   This will continue to make its round every year for a while.  Therapeutics is the best way to tackle this.  We can't even eradicate the common cold, but a cure for a novel viral disease is just over the horizon!!!  I'm not buying it.  So what, we lock down until more studies are done on the linger effects? What then?  Wait for more studies to be done based off those findings for some consensus in the scientific community?

Thanks for somewhat acknowledging my post, however, even though you skirted around it.  Yes, deaths have dipped below pandemic levels in America, at least for the time being.

On 7/15/2020 at 8:27 AM, 45catfan said:

This place is so freaking transparent.  On one hand, "look at the science!" and then when science is inconvenient, "but the science isn't clear on that!"

Adding one caveat...or completely ignored altogether.

**Chirp, Chirp**  Crickets...

On 7/15/2020 at 7:25 AM, 45catfan said:

Let me try this again.

5 pages and counting...

31 minutes ago, stirs said:

odd what people find interesting these days

 

Not odd, just biased.

Just now, Wes21 said:

The higher risk category starts in the early 40s.  And it goes up with health factors, including obesity.  How many chubby teachers did you have?  How many teachers in their 40s or older did you have?  I think when you combine the two, you will see a ton of them.

And the sheer number doesnt matter as much as the fact that every school has them.  So once a handful or more of them get it...now what?  And again, you also have to account for the administration staff as well.  Lots and lots of them are in the higher risk category as well.

How is this different than many other occupations?  Most office buildings have their share of overweight, middle-aged people.  Now we are setting different standards based on occupation?

2 minutes ago, KSpan said:

I haven't advocated for anything - that's what you're projecting onto my comments. I am in the same position as millions of other parents, weighing whether we would/should send our kids back or go with home-based and accommodate accordingly. 

Regarding kids and permanent damage, that has been discussed here in the form of MIS-C. It is rare but can cause permanent damage. This is why I asked about acceptable risk level.

Regarding your premise that online falls behind as a general outcome, please cite a source. It's certainly a complicated issue that in my experience with educators (I studied education in college and many in my family are teachers and administrators) they cite pros and cons to both, but also acknowledge that there can be confounding factors such as SES and home situations. That can't be ignored, andother studies have shown that homeschooling is as effective, if not moreso, than public education in many ways while falling short in others. A pretty balanced overview can be seen here: https://home-school.lovetoknow.com/Statistics_on_Public_School_Vs_Homeschooling  

Regarding daycare there is variability in state licensing requirements and how they're run but the groups are typically much smaller and spaces more controlled. I worked at a daycare for several years during college and agreed that it's conceptually the same thing but there's a notable difference between having 10-15 kids to monitor, with more than 1 adult for the younger groups, and class sizes that extend upward of 20 or 25.

Regarding vaccines I'm just saying that those diseases pose a threat of permanent damage and mandatory vaccines have been instituted to mitigate it. I've no idea if a vaccine is around the corner and as someone in the dug development industry I have my concerns about the pace and rigor with which these current IPs are being developed. I'm simply pointing out how other such things have been handled in today's environment.

Who is doing the homeschooling?  One parent would have to stay home.  How about single parent homes, who stays home to do the schooling?  I agree homeschooling is better than public schools in most scenarios, but that should be a decision the family makes outside of a pandemic.