Seltzer

3 minutes ago, PootieNunu said:

We are finally rebuilding the right way and you guys are mad we didn't go out and spend like mad men and trade away picks to win 5 games again. 

Let the guys do their jobs, Fitt and co. have dug a massive fuging hole over the past few seasons.

We dont need more knee jerk moves thinking we are one piece away from going to the playoffs. 

This poo should have been done years ago. 

I like your optimist, I genuinely do.  Probably just getting older and more cynical, but IMHO from my experience in the business world, someone like Tepper will not be able to ever give up control.

I'm not even remotely convinced that's the case, even switching to Morgan at GM.

I hope I'm wrong.

1 minute ago, Panthercougar68 said:

This is what should have happened in 2020, we are doing what Denver is doing and realizing that this isn't working so its a hard reset.

I agree with you 100% on this point.  Still, do you really have any greater confidence they will get this right this time?

B/c I honestly don't.  Trading away players like CMC, Moore, & Burns for peanuts and then squandering those draft picks (up until this point) has been the "gameplan" so far under Tepper and it's produced the worst results in the league over the past 5 seasons.

1 minute ago, chknwing said:

I'm actually optimisitc.  I like the moves so far.  Cant wait to see how it plays out.

Optimist enough to shill out $7k for this team ?

I have avoided most things Panthers-related for months to protect my mental health and sanity.

I have watched David Tepper destroy the one sports team I have truly ever been emotionally invested in.

To the point I'm not renewing my PSL's after 18 seasons.  My sons could care less about the Panthers- I can't blame them.

I bought my boys CMC jerseys- gone

I bought my boys DJ Moore jerseys- gone

I bought my boys Brian Burns jerseys (both 53 & 0)- gone

My last name is Thomas... maybe if I buy Ian Thomas jerseys, we'll finally get rid of him???

We been to 25 home games over the past 5 season.  We won 5, and most of those were ugly.  Many of them weren't even that competitive.  I couldn't even bribe my boys to go the games over the last half of the season, and I couldn't even give them away (except for big market games).

So much wasted money chasing sunken costs for a team/owner that refuses to reciprocate.  And I don't really care about the money at this point, but I have come to the realization I'm just numb after watching this franchise make so many self-inflicted mistakes (and then compounding them).

I've also realized as I've gotten older that being good at one endeavor absolutely doesn't mean you will be successful in something else.

David Tepper has obviously won at capitalism (and in the financial markets), but it is not an overstatement to say he has been the worst owner in US professional sports since he bought the Panthers.

And it's not any one thing- every franchise makes mistakes.  But beyond making awful singular decisions, Tepper has doubled & tripled down on every one of them, and here we are.

This is light years worse than at the end of the 2001 or 2010 seasons.  And this goes so far beyond the on-the-field product.  I've never, ever remotely felt this apathetic, and I know I'm not the only long-term & hardcore fan that feels this way.

Anyone who looks at my post history can tell I'm generally an optimist and a homer, but I can't feel anything at this point but numbness & apathy.

I never, ever could imagine this team being so mismanaged.  Tell me I'm not alone.

I've avoided the Panthers for the most part since the end of the season, but I looked online just in time to see we let Luvu walk and gave Burns away for a P&J sandwich... it's just too much...  the abyss seems to never end... 

And we haven't even gotten to draft season (where we will be mercilessly- and rightfully- skewered again).  I'm just so incredibly tired of being embarrassed as a Panthers fan.  Only apathy seems to help at this point, so I should disconnect again.

Thanks to anyone who read and please feel free to commiserate...

1 minute ago, Mage said:

We are such a garbage organization. Baker and Stroud about to be in the 2nd round.

I just hope we haven't ruined Bryce.

Everything this organization has touched over the past few years has went to poo, and everyone we write off seems to do much better once they leave this dysfunction.

I just hope something changes

3 hours ago, TheBigKat said:

I plan to... It will be my last home game as a season ticket holder as I am not going to renew my seats next year. I plan to take it all in, enjoy the moment and bid this team farewell as a year in year out financial supporter of the team

Same here.  I love & will always love this team, but I cannot continue to put my hard-earned money into a product that is the worst in the NFL, and continue to support an owner who does not seem to care one iota about the fanbase.

"I plan to take it all in, enjoy the moment and bid this team farewell as a year in year out financial supporter of the team".... well said!!

1 hour ago, CRA said:

What visions? Rhule never had one.  Neither did Frank.  Everything is this no man's land of claiming to rebuild and win now at the same time.    

Perfectly said... this sentence encapsulates the Tepper Era...

53 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

Beason just wasn’t big enough to hold up. 
 

dream lineup would have been him accepting the switch to WLB but they did right by him. Situation worked out for everyone. 

True.  Beason simply wasn't big enough to play MLB in the traditional 4-3 like Kuechly was, and he didn't have near the pass rush ability of TD.

I think his size was a reason for the injuries.  Beason was underrated in pass coverage though.  He had several big picks I can remember to seal games.

14 hours ago, hepcat said:

There was a time the panthers were squeezing blood out of rocks for free agents and now it’s free agents squeezing blood out of the panthers and turning into rocks 

I think those guys come in hungry, but once they realize this isn't a serious organization the vets just coast b/c why not?

We have certainly funded good retirements for a lot of NFL vets looking for one last easy payday the past few years...

3 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

You have defended him endlessly for not trading Burns.   Still feel that way?

I'll speak for myself... I will personally admit I thought keeping Burns last year was the right move, but I was wildly gaslit about where this roster stood.  I think we all were.

I thought we had the roster capable of trading up for a QB and making the playoffs, and keeping the only current guy on the roster who had shown he could get double-digit sacks seemed like the best course at the time.

I still think Burns is someone I would like on the team.  He is by far our best pass rusher IMO.  I think Fitty has massively bungled this entire Burns situation, but I do ultimately understand the concern about breaking the bank.  Still, we're a better team in 2024 if he's on the roster.

But, yes, unequivocally, given a crystal ball, those 2 1st rounders would be really nice for this team as it currently sits.  It certainly seems like it would have been the better long-term move.

In some ways like Bryce Young, though, I think the ink is dry.  Unless we still get blown away by a trade proposal pre-draft (which I doubt), the best move for next year is to resign him (for hopefully something reasonable to both sides).

1 minute ago, Shocker said:

He traded Hall of Famer and didn’t even get back a first rounder…he has to go 

I mean, trading CMC for nothing basically and trading up for the #1 pick and still ending up with the worst record in the league...

Fitty will never, ever be able to wash these awful trades/stains off his resume.

2 All-Time Blunders... and to do both in consecutive years... I mean, has there every been a 2-year stretch this bad as a GM... and this doesn't even count all his disasters...

5 minutes ago, CRA said:

Mr. "In on every trade" lol. I'm sure the NFL makes sure of that at this point.  No bigger sucker. 

We really bought that one from Fitty, too.  I know I did.

Yep, biggest sucker in the league.

I never thought 5 years ago I could ever miss Marty Hurney, but here we are...

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

I think in Burns' entire career you could argue he was our best defensive player just once in his career in reality....and that ain't been recent.   Not sure why folks keep repeating that at this point.   Burns just has tenure over others.   That's helping play into the narrative he is the best.   When was the last time he was actually the best? 

 

I think it would be hard to replace Burns, but this season hasn't done as much for his cause as I'm sure he would have hoped either.

And other than last year, you're right about him not being the best.  Reddick was better in 2021, but both Brown & Luvu have had better seasons than Burns this year.

Burns gets double-teamed a lot, but no more than Brown who has actually proven himself to be the kind of guy you break the bank for.  And if we're being honest, does Luvu's versatility not make him just as valuable if not more than Burns?

None of us have a crystal ball, but NFL GM's are held accountable to the decisions they make.  And Fitty's have in retrospect been almost completely wrong, including not trading Burns at his peak and now bungling the contract situation... man, the evidence is just more & more damning against Fitty.

15 minutes ago, 4Corners said:

Fitterer should be fired immediately. This is what lawyers call and open and shut case. Pathetic, embarrassing, and a total loser. 

Could you imagine showing your face around the league after the disastrous trades he's made?

The NFL is brutal... I'm sure Fitty gets clowned relentlessly behind the scenes of other organizations...

5 minutes ago, CRA said:

for me, the worst part is, this org has had no vision or horrific plans ever since folks like Fitterer arrived.  

everything is that.  Love or hate Teddy, keeping him and drafting a QB made sense.  They messed that up.  Then the Sam Darnold era made zero sense.  Instead of a depth chart project he was THE plan.   Then the have Cam save us from our nightmare move that frankly made zero sense outside of getting fans off their back so they/we could have that farewell with him...and then they didn't even give us that.  Then the pointless Baker era.  Then the dysfunctional trade the farm for Bryce Young and give him no weapons or weapons that don't fit what he would be doing because somehow, because he doesn't need them. 

Scott Fitterer IMO wasn't qualified to come into a weak front office and build a team because he was a weak candidate to begin with.  Came in here and IMO has thought he could somehow create some discount version of the Seattle LOB team.  I think Horn was Fitterer.  That's always what made sense.  Think Bryce was Fitterer.  Think the mindset you can have a discount O with a small QB and heavily invest in your D is Fitterer.     But it was a whack vision.  Seattled pimped Russell and the LOB.  What made it actually work IMO was the ground and pound of Lynch.  Dominant run game paired w/ a fluke D (in terms of how it all came together and how good it was.  You can't build that intentionally). 

 

Everything this organization has tried to sell us during the Tepper Era as a "strategic vision/plan" has been in a reality a house of cards... 

Richardson was just mostly a mute who never communicated but also didn't meddle...  

What I'd give just to get back to the mediocrity under JR...

At least we got some awesome playoff runs and 2 SB appearances.

Under Tepper, we are little the worst team in American professional sports...

2 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

In the future he needs to learn to shut the fug up because the more he talks the more he has stuff that can be used against him.  IE. "We dont plan to be picking in the top 10 again"

Sanders, Hurst, Chark in FA

Getting rid of your top WR and trading up to #1 with the expectation of the playoffs

The offseason moves from this past year alone should be enough for termination.

In its entirety, Fitterer truly has been one of the worst GM's of all time.  Maybe that's not a completely fair title dealing with Tepper, but perception is 90% of reality.

He's never going to be able to wash the stink of his bad trades off.

15 minutes ago, Panthera onca said:

That's a pretty damning indictment on Fitt. 

I would probably leave the "pretty" out lol...  It is damning indictment...

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

We've all been harping about this all year and even longer. We're the worst franchise in the league currently in large part because we've made horrible personnel moves, both in terms of the roster and the coaching ranks. We have some good players and we probably have some good coaches but we don't have enough to overcome the rest of the poo show.

Good & accurate assessment. 

Fitty is the biggest current issue on the team.  There is no logic that could support bringing him back after his cascade of failures, the biggest (and should be unequivocal grounds for termination) was misjudging the roster so incredibly badly to trade up to #1.  And this was just the topping on the cake of bad decisions with draft capital.

That being said, we'll probably never know behind the scenes how much Tepper is pulling the strings.  The fact the Fitty is even still here is a bad sign IMO b/c it seems like Fitty has traded job security for being a yes man to the owner who really wants to run the show.

All we can hope is the Fitty is gone come Jan 8th, and that Tepper hires a legit GM and stays out of the way.

10 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

fug you fat fitt, you are one dumb motherfuger.  I mean truly one of the worst GM's the nfl has ever seen.   

 

https://theathletic.com/5150382/2023/12/20/panthers-gm-scott-fitterer-future/

Pretty fair article from Person as usual

 

The burns and corral piece of this is truly baffling

The bad

Turning down the Los Angeles Rams’ offer for Brian Burns

The Panthers were in transition mode last year at the trade deadline. Tepper had fired Rhule two weeks earlier and Fitterer had already moved All-Pro running back Christian McCaffrey and wide receiver Robbie Anderson ahead of the deadline (more on both of those later).

But the deal that looks questionable a year later is the one Fitterer didn’t make. The Rams offered two future first-round picks — in 2024 and ’25 — plus a third in ’23 for Burns, who was in the midst of a career-best, 12 1/2-sack season. Trading Burns would have left the Panthers without their best player on a defense that has kept them in a lot of games the past two seasons.

But the Panthers might have been able to flip the two firsts to Chicago, allowing them to trade for the No. 1 pick without giving up their own first in ’24 and wideout DJ Moore, who would have been an invaluable weapon for rookie quarterback Bryce Young.

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The decision to keep Burns was further complicated by the Panthers’ inability to sign him to a long-term contract. With Fitterer unwilling to meet Burns’ contract demands — around $30 million a year, according to sources — Burns essentially cut off negotiations once the season started and likely will be looking at a franchise tag this offseason.

Moving on from Christian McCaffrey

This was a tough call for Fitterer and the organization because of how effective the multi-talented McCaffrey is when healthy. But the 2017 first-round pick had played in only 10 games in 2020 and ’21 and the big money on his contract was about to hit in ’23.

San Francisco gave up four picks for McCaffrey, although none was a first-round selection. The Panthers used a second from the 49ers in the deal to acquire the first overall pick from Chicago. They packaged a third and fourth from the Niners to trade up for Oregon edge rusher DJ Johnson with the 80th overall pick, considered a reach by most draft experts. Johnson has 14 tackles and no sacks in 10 games.

Meanwhile, McCaffrey has yet to miss a game with San Francisco, leads the NFL in rushing and should get MVP votes while playing for Kyle Shanahan, who babysat McCaffrey and his brothers as a teenager and runs an offense well-suited for McCaffrey’s skill set. With each 100-yard or multi-touchdown game, it seems clear the Panthers didn’t get enough for McCaffrey, who — like Moore — would have been a godsend to a rookie QB.

This year’s free-agent group

Given control of the 53 after Reich’s arrival, Fitterer had the final say in personnel decisions this year. The results have been underwhelming. The Panthers were the only team to pay a free-agent running back, and Miles Sanders has not made much of a case for more spending at the position in the future.

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Sanders, who signed a four-year, $25.4 million contract, has become an afterthought behind Chuba Hubbard while struggling to get untracked. Tight end Hayden Hurst had not found much of a role before suffering a season-ending concussion at Chicago on Nov. 9, while DJ Chark has failed to emerge as a consistent vertical stretch.

The Panthers on Tuesday released veteran edge rusher Justin Houston, who managed a half-sack in seven games before getting hurt. Reich wanted to bring Houston in for his leadership and productivity, while former running backs coach Duce Staley is said to have backed the signings of Sanders and Chark. But Fitterer had to sign off on all of them.

 

Trading up for Matt Corral

Former Panthers GM Dave Gettleman used to warn against “shopping hungry,” which is what the Panthers did during the 2022 draft while looking to upgrade the QB position (after previously missing out on Matthew Stafford and Deshaun Watson). The Panthers talked to the Cleveland Browns during the draft about trading for Baker Mayfield, while thinking about taking a shot on a mid-round quarterback.

After Malik Willis went to Tennessee in the third round, the Panthers traded up for Matt Corral, the Ole Miss quarterback who had not interviewed well and exhibited “unreliable behavior” in college, according to the NFL Network’s Ian Rapoport. The Panthers took Corral over former UNC quarterback Sam Howell, who has started 14 games for Washington this year, and the Niners’ Brock Purdy, who, in fairness, was not viewed as a mid-round prospect.

Corral sustained a season-ending foot injury during a preseason game as a rookie, and was released during final cuts before this season. Corral signed with New England before leaving the team before Week 1 for a personal matter. He has not resurfaced for as much as a tryout since.

You know I'm not afraid to push back when I don't agree, but this article (and your take) is spot on.

I'll lead the riot on Mint St if Scotty F is still there on Jan. 8th

2 hours ago, electro's horse said:

overall i'd agree. 

Not when Beason was first drafted though.

It is interesting that injuries derailed Beason (who was better early on), but somehow TD was better (and had the best part of his career) after his 3 ACL tear...

6 minutes ago, Basbear said:

Hill basically benched chinn. Im a big chinn guy and all, but Hill is clearly the better NB no matter his age or history. 

True... it's crazy b/c I almost forgot Chinn was back.  Definitely doesn't fit this scheme.

Almost like the deal with Justin Houston.  I thought we had IRed him for the year.

22 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Troy Hill has been a pleasant midseason pickup.

Shades of Rasul Douglas a few years back for us but we stupidly let him walk.

Amazing that of all the FA's I can think of we signed, he has probably been the best and he was almost an afterthought.

The Rasul Douglas comparison is spot-on...

1 hour ago, electro's horse said:

Best seasons for a defender in Panthers history.....

Kevin Greene in 1996 - all pro, complete force, his diving TD after a fumble recovery was the signature play of the young team. would eventually leave Carolina for san francisco for a year because they'd let him wrestle in the WCW. Came back and attacked a coach on the sideline but I'm sure he had some good reasons. 

Doug Evans 2001 - I'm serious. 8 picks, all in the first half of the season, no idea how he wasn't traded. 

Kris Jenkins 2002 - Jenkins has undiagnosed sleep apnea until after 2001. Once he got a CPAP he had two of the most dominant seasons for a DT....ever. Jenkins was obviously great in 2003, but in 2002 he just could not be stopped. Remember, Peppers missed 4 games in 2002 with a suspension, and was not what he would become. 

Julius Peppers 2004 - this was Peppers' best year. Morgan and Jenkins got hurt, Rucker was dealing with injuries, some of their depth guys were hurt...this was Peppers defense and it was his best performance. Once Fields got back in shape and gave him a little bit of support in the front seven, it was over. Panthers second half surge was due to a weak schedule, Contract Year Muhsin Muhammad, and Peppers just going super saiyan. 

Luke Kuechly - pick a season. He was the best player on the field (sorry cam, steve) the second he came into the league. For the record I hated that pick when they made it. 

Some hot takes

KK Short had some good productive years, but I always felt he was more a product of the system. He was paired next to Star who I always thought was the better player, and he also had Luke and Davis behind him. Remember, in his best seasons teams were scheming to stop the Panthers linebackers. Star filled his role perfectly and Short feasted. 

If we're talking about best all time seasons just by counting stats, then don't look who shares the single season sack record with Kevin Greene. Of course, 2013 was a stacked front seven. Johnson was (insanely overpaid to be) solid, Star and KK were in their first seasons, and Luke was ascending. Still, Hardy had a role, and if he had kept his head on straight there's no telling what he could have become. Of course, he's a woman beating sociopath who got out of shape during his 1.5 years out of football and just never got anything back. Stupid asshole with his colored contacts. Shout out to Fox playing him as a gunner on the return team his rookie year. Enjoy rabbit punching toe tags in MMA fights in Reno. 

Hot take here: Josh Norman was not that good in 2015. He had four interceptions in the first four weeks; two off Jameis, one off Bortles, and one that was admittedly amazing against Drew Brees. After that I think teams just sorta bought into the hype about him and decided to mostly stay away from him. Panthers defensive line was actually not that great in 2015, it's just that the safeties and linebackers were playing in a different dimension. Then all of a sudden the offense just went nuclear and the defense could do whatever it wanted. But he got beat at times during the regular season, notably in New Orleans, at Seattle, and obviously against the Giants. He also never came close to replicating that season; he never even made a pro bowl again. Now you can point out he ended up in Washington which fair but still, didn't sniff that kind of productive again. Another mark against him is how simple that system was to pick up. Courtland Finnegan like walked in off the street on a Friday and was starting on Sunday and did fine. So yeah, Norman was a flash in the pan, had like 1 good month ever, got paid way too much and Gettleman was right to let him walk. 

Good list. I considered all of those except Doug Evans.  I had forgotten about how great he was in 2002.

I disagree about Josh Norman though.  I feel like teams just stopped throwing at him for the most part in 2015 after his incredible start.

Appreciate the response!

1 hour ago, electro's horse said:

This is a god awful list 

Who would be your top 5?  I'm not being snarky, I simply went from memory so I'm sure I missed some.

Kevin Greene in '96 was definitely an omission.

3 hours ago, CRA said:

1996 Kevin Greene is a pretty glaring omission. 

Finished 2nd in DPOY votes.   14.5 sacks.  Helped take that team out of nowhere to the NFCCG.  It's definitely top 5. 

 

 

Yep... you're right... I missed this one bad.  Definitely should be on this list.  Where do you think on the list?