SetfreexX

1 hour ago, ncfan said:

You do realize that rd2-7 QB success is less than 1/4th of that right.?

I'm not saying to draft one in those rounds, I'm specifically referring to giving up multiple firsts vs taking the QB that is available at 9. 

Same way we should've taken Fields at 8.

A 45 to 50% success rate on 1st round QBs is not a smart bet. 

Who was the last QB that got drafted via a trade up ransom that worked out long term...

Wentz, Lance are the two most recent off the top of my head that teams jumped into the top 3 for.

Who else?

I believe history is on the side of taking who is available versus mortgaging multiple firsts. 

7 minutes ago, grimesgoat said:

I think we need some perspective.  It's not like 30 other teams have kyle shanahan clones and we are the only team with a shitty coaching tree.  We've had our moments.

We are average.  We've always been average.  Our winning percentage since 2000 is 17th in the league.

But what is interesting to me is that we are 12th in the league in winning percentage against the spread (193 - 183 - 9).  Just a bunch of overachievers.

We've hit a rough patch. We have a new coach, a stud DC, and a boatload of draft picks.  We're on our way.  Let's enjoy.

We only have 7 picks - 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5

The extra 5th from SF is in 2024. 

The seven picks we have for 2023 as of today is the same number of total picks we'd normally have. The good thing is we can double up in rounds 2 & 3 this year if we're able to sit tight and get a guy like AR15 at no. 9. 

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

I don't think Turner was bad.

Norv was the best OC we'd had, and had Cam on pace for career best numbers in completion percentage -- people forget, we were 6-2 and this was with a LT off the damn street. 

I appreciate the time Ron spent here, but I cannot forgive the fact that we IGNORED outfitting a generational talent at QB with the most effective skill players / OL to maximize his talent. 

I think the issue with defensive minded coaches is that even WITH a talent like Cam, they THINK I need the best defense I can field and my QB is good enough. When to me it's yes you need a good defense, but when you have THAT at QB, you need to field a GREAT offense. Not just a GREAT QB.

2 hours ago, pantherj said:

Anyone remember in he TB game thread to go to the playoffs, when I called out that the Bucs were going to go deep to Mike Evan because we had no safety help over the top? And then I said they were about to do it again, and they immediately did it again, and we still didn't have safety help? Just dumb stuff like that. Or McAdoo calling run plays that always required Ian Thomas to block, but we all knew full well he couldn't block any better than an undersized WR. We just had the dumbest team last season.

If you go back and watch Wilks' post game, he actually advises that it was 2 man under, which means help was supposed to be over the top in regard to AT LEAST one of those. This was in response to the CJ Henderson one. 

22 hours ago, TLGPanthersFan said:

Well we are gonna have to bite the bullet eventually. 

Biting the bullet doesn't mean trading three first round picks either. 

I think we should see how the combine / pro-days / etc. begin to align.

I think we will have AR or Stroud there at #9. 

HOU and IND seem to be the initial threats. Bryce & Stroud, or Bryce and Levis are likely the combo for first two QB's taken. 

After free agency it will show us who else is serious about a draft QB. 

3 hours ago, TheBigKat said:

 

Brian Daboll IS the culture.... He is arguably the most influential man in the State of NY right now

 

Rooting for them makes me optimistic that we can find a coach like him who can walk into a cesspool of despair and change it around in 1 season with mostly the same personnel but just some good ass coaching!

 

 

Wilks did that already

2 hours ago, Kentucky Panther said:

Pro Wilks crowd will not address this. He went .500 as the coach and lost every big game he coached in. But by god, I’m not sure we can do better. 
 

I have been and will continue to hope we get anyone but Steve Wilks. 

How do you win big games regularly without a ''big game'' QB. 

Name a team that wins big games regularly and consistently without one of the better QBs...

Literally we were working with some of the worst options. 

What kind of unrealistic expectations did you guys have for Baker, or Sam...?

I mean damn, he went .500 with essentially no QB, and a limited defense. 

11 hours ago, Byrdman4real said:

I'm 39 years old so yes I knew this already. It does not mean McDermott did learn much under Rivera. But not all his coaching abilities came from him. He was under Andy Reids coaching tree. 

Andy Reid or not, the coach he cut his teeth under was Rivera. He was fired in PHI...

That's not coaching tree success, that came here in CAR and most of the talk about him getting HC considerations was after a few years here.

Had nothing to do with ''Andy Reid'' ties. 

51 minutes ago, Byrdman4real said:

Anyone with football knowledge know McDermott was the true reason behind most of the success on the defensive side. And he didn't learn from Rivera. Ken Dorsey didn't because he was offensive which Rivera don't even know well. That's why Rivera always said he couldn't answer offensive questions like that and left it up to his OC. 

So you're unfamiliar with Ron's success in San Diego and Chicago as the DC, or early in McD career when Ron had to handle play calling - https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/17/sean-mcdermott-lands-on-his-feet-in-carolina/

Either y'all young or just don't care to keep up with how things actually happened here over the years. 

Rivera groomed McD and helped him become who he is as a coach. 

You can't take that away because "Ron was too conservative".

8 minutes ago, amcoolio said:

McDaniel came in and established one right away with Miami

Dabol came in and established one right away with New York

Taylor has a pretty awesome culture with Cincinnati after a few years

It's worth taking a chance on a young offensive mind

 

Those guys are taken, in MIA if you have Hill / Waddle / Gisecki / theose HBs / Armstead and that OL, plus that defense I'd wonder about the coach not to mention a top pick at QB. 

Daboll, furthest thing from young, was a proven NFL Coordinator was not a ''young up and coming OC'' -- inherited Andrew Thomas, and they draft the tackle from ALA who's name escapes me atm, and two picks before him got Thibodeaux. He also had a lot to work with and is closer to my alternates of -- Reich / Caldwell than that of they young, unproven OC's.

Taylor inherited the #1 overall QB in one of the few occurrences where it worked out. 

__________________________________

 You're going to need to do a little better than that. What are those coaches doing in 2022 with what we had to work with. That would be the question I'd ask myself in your shoes. 

Not faulting them you coach what you get, but are any of them doing more with less is a better question.

4 minutes ago, Byrdman4real said:

And Wilks will build that same culture and identity Rivera had because that is who he been with and learned from. The same thing that we have seen over and over. The definition of insanity. 

Did McDermott do this, also Ken Dorsey OC for HC interview...will he also do this since it's ''who he been with and learned from''?

Or does being an OC absolve his from this blanket comparison...why isn't McD Rivera 2.0, he was the first Rivera tree hire....

7 minutes ago, amcoolio said:

Yeah, well Payton and other coaches would solve that problem too. Rivera had a culture and identify and he flamed out as well.

What other coaches....I already said I'd be on board with a proven NFL coach (Reich / Caldwell / Wilks) of the young up and comers who's going to come in and have players respect day one?

Dorsey might be the only one due to his time here, would he be a Rivera re-tread since he was on that staff, or since he eventually became an OC would he be ''an outside the box'' modern NFL guy who goes for 4th and short all the time, and is brash, etc. 

Also Wilks is not Rivera, anyone with eyes / football acumen could see there was only ONE way for this team to win games in 2022 with this roster. This years plan doesn't' apply to 2023.

Maybe some should consider that. 

7 minutes ago, TLGPanthersFan said:

It really is amazing how you Wilks supporters think that he is some amazing coach that was hampered by a bad situation and if he just has one more chance he will become the next McVay and lead the Panthers to the promise land. 
History says Wilks will fail and I will be laughing and laughing while you Wilks supporters try to invent some excuse as to why it isn’t his fault. 
Also concerning blinders. That is hilarious considering Wilks supporters are about as blind as a bat to Wilks problems. 

History also says these inexperienced OC's will fail or succeed the same way Wilks could fail or succeed.

The ultimate question is what makes you or anyone think a 1-3 year OC is a stronger option...what is the reasoning other than the ''the offensive guys wouldn't be conservative''. 

Steichen was the OC last in in PHI too, people want him now for two reasons:

1) Philly added a legit WR #1, and has had one of the BEST OLs the last few years

2) Philly won at a high clip this year

The two options above are possible because:

1) QB on a rookie deal that is ''good''

2) One of the best defenses in the league

___________________________________________________

No one was wanting Dorsey or Steichen back in 2020, they are the flavors of the month now, and if those teams didn't have a combination of - Coach / QB / really good roster most folks wouldn't even know who they are. 

Other than coach offense what would you say these inexperienced OC's would do better as a HC?

From someone you all may respect more than me behind a keyboard. 

6 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

I haven't moved any.  He lost by double digits 12 of his 19 losses as a HC.  That's all.  

I don't think he's a quality enough coach.  

So when nine are from a team not of his making, not of his choosing, you hang all nine simply on him ''not being quality enough'' when he just took a 1-4 team to 7 and 10....

I'd say that's some damn good coaching considering the gaps we have on the roster, and no QB. 

18 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Appreciate the response.  I understand your defense on that end you speak to.

For me, still not sold on the prospect of Wilks.  It just feels very Mike Pettine to me and I just would like to finally get past the Rivera & Rhule eras. It just feels like we've been caught in this slighty under .500 feedback loop and there's no end in sight.  

Full detachment.  Wilks, and even Dorsey to a degree, would likely bring a lot of usual suspect back into the building.  

If people are criticizing the experience of some of these young coaches, I think it's fair to take note of Wilks' limited experience as a coordinator and HC.  

I don't think he'd necessarily do a bad job, the first TB game this year was fire.  Great stuff.  But I'd be lying if I wouldn't be absolutely deflated by us hiring him full time.  

Then who's the hire that gets you excited, what does ''x'' candidate bring that warrants the excitement. 

NFL coaching staffs are an exercise in nepotism, always has been a good ole' boys / my guys kind of operation. That's not going to change with a new coach, Steichen will pull from PHI's staff / Dorsey from BUF and possibly some former Panthers guys elsewhere / Moore would bring guys from DAL, and maybe even some collegiate contacts he's maintained, same for Reich / Caldwell both former Colts coaches. 

The only that would really changes is tied to if the coach is an Off minded guy versus Def, and most comments in here simply ''want'' an Off minded guy, but no real preference has been provided, and no real record of success for any of them has been referenced, which I covered in the fact that I'd like Reich or Caldwell. 

13 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

I dunno man. Honestly I don't. HC is such a crapshoot to begin with, but I'd rather swing for the fences than settle for what is familiar.

How can we say Wilks is familiar, to Ron, or Fox until he actually has a QB / Staff to judge him in full by?

That's why I think it should be him, these new guys bring little experience if any even in their area of expertise (1-3 years of OC experience) and never led a team, and on the other hand Wilks has a lot of NFL experience which is why I think he was able to do what he did this year, which to me earned a look moving forward. 

For all the respect Josh McDaniels received as an OC, look what he's done in DEN / OAK. Do we really thing a McVay, or Shanahan is to be found in Steichen / Moore / Dorsey?

That's all I'm saying.

31 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

Do note, I didn't qualify the records, just said he took over McD's defense.  That's one of only 2 years as a coordinator. 

Like I prefaced, AZ was likely not his doing but you have to take note and check things out.  It doesn't mean all critique of him during that period can somehow be discounted.  And yes, that is 5 years ago because he was subsequently with Cleveland, then wasn't even in football in 2020 and in Mizzou in 2021.  

No need to get into the nitty gritty when the big picture is so undoubtedly clear that we can and should do better.  Losing by double digits is losing by double digits.  Nothing against the guy, I'm not trying to mindlessly bash, but we have to move forward here.  

I wonder how many other NFL teams lost 3 games or more by double digits 

• SEA - 3 double digit losses
• NYG - 3 double digit losses
• MIN - 5 double digit losses
• MIA - 4 double digit losses

_______________________________________________
Here are four playoff teams that were WC / Division winner (MIN) -- the division winner has the same amount as us under Wilks...

The difference all those teams have is they have a competent quarterback. Off or Def minded or not, it doesn't matter if you don't have a quarterback.  

You'd think and ''offensive'' minded guy wouldn't lose by double digits, the coach in MIA he's such a brilliant offensive mind that it doesn't matter if Tua or Teddy B are playing, offensive mind will over come the absence of a viable quarterback.

And to some degree I say that with sarcasm as like I mentioned, you have to have a quarterback to score, the fact we only had three with Wilks and a QB carousel says a lot about the job he did here with a skeleton staff / post firing some Rhule left overs (Cooper / Snow). 

What's the next goalpost we want to move?

7 minutes ago, Aussie Tank said:

No thanks this team needs a new direction. We’re just going round in circles with these conservative defensive coaches. McDermott has learned to be aggressive having Josh Allen really helps you turn the corner though 

So you're saying McD is the only defensive minded coach capable of learning...and that you ACTUALLY need a QB to not lean towards being conservative when trying to win games because you are at a disadvantage....

Man I wonder what I've been trying to explain this whole time....*checks notes*

Damn, that's exactly what I've been saying, the primary issue isn't outright the coach now that Rhule is gone, it's the absence of 1) A legit NFL QB, and 2) A legit NFL OC / mind on the staff in general.

4 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

I ask you don't take this from discussable complaints to criticism of the people discussing. 

The whole "you don't know football" thing & going for a superiority complex over counter-opinions just lowers the bar and will now, undoubtedly, derail the discussion.  

The other bars provided were limited at best...and without context. 

If it's derailed its derailed by those with no intent to have an open conversation about it versus simply dismissing the notion like has been done by many, or simply, ''not making it past the title'' which is why those folks were categorized and I even included ''in jest'' as to not seriously demean, belittle, or provoke. 

It seems that effort may have been lost in the effort to respond as quick as possible to ''call me out''. 

6 minutes ago, Brooklyn 3.0 said:

Dude, ALL the NFCS teams were in Playoff contention. No one had a winning record. Stop.

Had he gone 10-2 ... THAT is a resurrection.

So an outright unrealistic expectation...

Versus taking a team out of the gutter and in position to compete for the playoffs, you play who you play. It was us and TB, ATL wasn't getting in, and neither was NO down the stretch. 

It was a two team race in Week 17, so from 1-4 to that is a resurrection; and honestly finishing .500 could also be considered an unrealistic expectation as no one saw that coming either. 

7 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

I gave him credit where it was due. He identified that's all we were good for because he's competent. He is Rivera.

I want more than competent with my HC though. I want better than Rivera.

HC Candidates Linked to Panthers:

Sean Payton

Frank Reich

Jim Caldwell

Kellen Moore - Been an OC for 3 years iirc

Ken Dorsey - First year OC in BUF, been a QB Coach for several 

Shane Steichen - Been an OC with LAC / PHI the past three years

Demeco Ryans - Turned down opps

Ben Johnson - Staying with DET

____________________________________________________

These are who come to mind off the top of my head, Payton, Reich, Caldwell I could all see being better than Rivera, I have also said I'm good with two of the three (would prefer not to lose draft capital to hire a coach)

Of the three young OCs up and coming who is getting you into the playoffs, and what makes you feel that way, what can you base it on that is tangible. Who will be their DCs based on what's available, etc.

1 minute ago, NorthTryon said:

Man, don't even worry about all the backlash. These dudes aren't going to stop moving the goalposts. Your opening post said everything that needed to be said and they are making you reexplain the same points over and over. I was there a few weeks ago and they literally don't care. You even shut down the argument about our defense getting weaker the year before he became Arizona's HC. You brought up the point about them firing black head coaches after one year and somebody posted a gif rolling their eyes. It is funny the way people are dismissive after you start crushing their weak arguments. Case in point, if someone is still dumb enough to say Wilks didn't adjust during the Tampa Bay game, there is no helping them. He would be one of the best options at HC for us going forward and these people showing how little they know about football post after post aren't going to change that. 

I do it for those that pay attention, it's not like I think he's the next great head coach, but I believe he's better for the ''Panthers'' than an up and comer with one year of OC experience, and no history at all. 

If he had not had the interim time it would be easier to dismiss him if you just look at the ARI situation without context. But that isn't the case. 

I'm fully aware most of the guys against it fall into one of a couple categories:

• Didn't want Cam
• PTSD from Rivera's conservatism even though it led to a lot of success / even now in WAS where they have more playoff appearances than us since he was fired with no QB to this day
• Ford F-150

________________________________________________________________________

Some of that I say in jest, I want a better offense like everyone here, I think you can still keep Wilks' leadership by also hiring a strong OC -- I'm 100% ok with poaching a SF / LAR offensive assistant to add as an OC over McAdoo. 

I think what most of the folks that post that they are against this, don't seem to talk about ''WHO'' the hire should be....?

I also said if we go the offensive route - Reich / Caldwell are my choices over ''insert young OC''. Leadership, and experience are what we presently need at the HC spot in my opinion Wilks, Reich, Caldwell could all provide that. 

This was never set up as a Wilks or bust post, just ''why'' I think he makes the most sense based off this past season along with projecting a better roster, with a QB worth a damn moving forward. 

1 minute ago, Brooklyn 3.0 said:

Going 6-6 isn't a resurrection. It's keeping a damn from bursting.

After two years of .300 win %, and a 1-4 start...

To being in playoff contention up until Week 17....

Please define resurrection, because I know damn well watching on Sundays became worth it after he took over...