SetfreexX

8 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

We were a one trick pony though, that's my argument. Literally everyone knew we were going to run the ball. We beat teams who were bad against the run. Seattle and Detroit were #3 and #4 worst in the league against the run. Cincy and Baltimore, both top 5. Pitt, top 10. TB, mediocre at run defense so we split. NO, bottom 10 run defense, we swept them.

There was no exceptional game plan after he took over, it was just pound that rock. We should have won the games we won because we were built to win against those teams. Any team that was remotely good against the run and we had no counterpunch. 

Granted, he still identified that was what our identity should be based on our personnel, something Rhule was oblivious to, but that comes back to Wilks actually being competent. 

Do you know why...

Can't be any planer, we DO NOT, and in those games this year DID NOT have a quarterback.

Having QBs on the roster is not the same as ''having a quarterback''. 

________________________

Pounding the rock was all this roster was capable of doing / sustaining

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Some of ya'll acting like this season happened while we had a legit offense. 

Moore / the OL / Foreman....that was all we were really working with

TMJ had flashes, Shi, had some flashes, we got practically NOTHING from the TE's outside a few Tremble TDs, but no consistent game to game TE threat...

Like what exactly were people thinking was going to me a recipe to attempt to win games...

6 minutes ago, NJPanthers12 said:

Stopped reading at the title of the post. That’s a lot of words to just say I have no idea what I’m taking about. 

Spoken like a true huddler...

Fact is, he resurrected this team damn near instantly with nothing to work with in the QB dept. 

15 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Our biggest problem when we had Cam wasn't the QB, it was the coach. Having a good QB doesn't mean squat if you don't have a coach and OC that know how to use them. You need creativity and innovation, especially in the offense driven NFL now. That's not most defensive coaches, Wilks included. He showed us he was who he was, ground and pound. Conservative football. Beat the other guy doing what we do. Except when that doesn't work, there's nothing else to fall back on. It's time to get in the flow with the way the NFL is going. Rules are stacked against the defense. It's time to change and head away from what hasn't worked. 

So on this roster with McAdoo as the inherited OC, and Baker, Sam, and PJ...you want to just air it out all over the yard just because that's what teams do now...

Teams that can do that generally have the personnel to do that, and that starts with a QB...

So who we ushering in this new age with that was on the 2022 Panthers roster...

12 minutes ago, Bear Hands said:

I mentioned elsewhere, but it can't be lost that Wilks only has 2 entire years to his name as a coordinator in the NFL and 14 years overall experience.  The fact is he was Ron Rivera's assistant since 2006 until the AZ job came along in 2017.  

The AZ HC season was probably a huge season of growth for him professionally even though the team and franchise was awful there, but overall, you don't really see much to go off.  And even if it was crappy situation and they didn't give him time, that team nosedived and hard.  Can't ignore that.  

As coordinator, one year was riding McD's defense with Luke, and the other was under Freddie Kitchens in Cleveland (They were ranked around 22nd that year).  

As HC, his teams have lost by double digits 12 times in 29 total games.  

Nahhh

 

 

McD's last year here 2016

26th in PPG allowed

21th in YPG allowed

Steve Wilks 2017

11th in PPG allowed

7th in YPG allowed

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Tell me more about riding coattails with the same personnel as you mentioned. 

As far as those double digit losses you throw out with no context -- only 3 were as the interim Panthers coach. (LAR (1st game as interim), CIN, BAL (10 points)

The other three losses were by - 3, 8, and 6 points, that's a point differential of 5.67

So again, as stated, he didn't select his staff / QB in ARI and we're putting the results on his head 100%...got it.

You're going to have to do better than throwing out stats from the ARI time as 1) it was 5 years ago, and 2) his lack of impact is limited due to and I say this again, not his staff / not his QB.

5 minutes ago, frankw said:

If we're crapping on Ben Johnson for the loss against us then let's keep it consistent and talk about that Bengals blowout 35 points in a half. And let's also talk about how we let the Bucs keep destroying our secondary without making any attempts at adjustments ie classic Ron Rivera.

Pretty sure PJ had early turnovers that sparked the snowball, and if you watch the pressers, two of those three TD's was man coverage with deep safety help for each half of the field. 

So a better question would be were was the help, Keith like when Donte' fell just got beat by a better received. 

Wilks re-capped it in the presser after the game. If you only watched the game I could see how you might feel that way. 

Back to CIN let's not act like they are not a good team, and team many aspire to be. We got whooped, but the offense as we know being limited didn't show up, and the turnovers early killed us which meant running was no longer an option.

6 minutes ago, TLGPanthersFan said:

FIFY. Don’t think I haven’t forgot how many close losses because of Rivera conservative playcalling. 
 

A close loss isn't a loss...FIFY

And you can't take away or diminish the appearances just because you are not a fan of the coaching style, that is simply ignorant. 

3 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

I'm still not following how this proves wilks should be the HC though?

We had over 10 minutes more TOP due to the fact we were running at will, and they still managed to score above the league average of points after they completely abandoned the run. We didn't handle it so much as we beat the breaks off their defense by breaking a franchise record in rushing.

This is on the list of things why, which are in the OP. 

Again, I isolated this game as we limited their offense, and had a plan on offense to take advantage of their defense. IE: out-planning / out-coaching

Same way we handled SEA, we know Darnold and PJ are liabilities at QB, yet we found ways to win with a GLARING weakness at QB. 

It's cool most folks here want an offensive minded coach, folks are also straight up dismissing the job he did this year, with this mess. 

Is your Ben Johnson's of the world going .500 with this??? That's a legit question to consider. 

Damian Williams was an established HB in GB, and set a record this year IRL, our gameplan limited that

Aman-Ra was one of the best receivers as far as targets / production we limited that, and if not for the early bomb to Chark, we likely hold them under 20 points for the game. 

You can't highlight the failures and dismiss the success at the same time acting like what he did was not impressive, and likely deserving of more. 

4 minutes ago, Brooklyn 3.0 said:

The old NFL is almost dead. You need to move on from ground and pound, run run run football. It's over. And the Bills are not doing Carolina ball. If anyone is, it's Tennessee. Buffalo is a passing team. Allen and Diggs are scary good.

You're missing the point -- at no point did I say we should pound the ball...

What he did as a coach was find an ''identity'' and a ''way to win'' with this roster. That's what a ''good'' coach does. 

Buffalo ''became'' a team that can pass the ball, but they also went out and traded for Diggs to give Allen a legit #1. Rivera failed to do that, I don't see Wilks making a similar mistake. 

This isn't about the old way vs new way, this is about who I think is a good coach, regardless of his Off / Def background.

1 minute ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Because McDermott was actually a good D-coordinator.

Wilks was average at best. There was a massive step down in defensive quality after McDermott left. 

Wilks coached a top 10 defense in yards allowed (7th), and 11th in PPG allowed...

You consider this fact average?

I already posted this and the link for reference.

In contrast the 2016 defense, McDermott's last year here as he was hired January 11th, 2017 in Buffalo...

PPG Allowed - 26th 

YPG Allowed - 21st

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People really forget why Wilks got the HC opps in the first place, and just focus on the 3-13 like he wasn't set up to fail day one. Didn't have a chance to choose his staff, or top 10 QB. 

2 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Flores isn't getting HC opportunities this go round because apparently he's a dick. He straight tried to sabotage Tua, and once they paired him with a coach who gave a crap about him then he flourished until his brain kept getting scrambled. Many players have come out not liking Flores from his time in MIA. He's still getting DC interviews. 

And looking at one game to crap on Johnson where their DEFENSE gave up 320+ Rushing yards and 37 points is kind of dumb, especially considering their QB threw for 355 and 3 TDs. So the run game wasn't working, something the offense leaned on heavily throughout the season and jamaal williams lead the league in TDs. OK, let's spin the rock then. He couldn't help that their defense couldn't stop us. 

Let's contrast that with what happened with us against Cincy, Pitt, and TB. Any game we couldn't run, we were SOL. They're stopping the run today, time to pack it in boys, no chance at winning. Can't adjust this scheme to generate some points, nope. and that was with Darnold actually playing well.  

I say this without having Johnson at the top of my list of candidates. Wilks is the same ol' same ol' we had with Rivera. I'm ready for something new. 

 

I've said a few times the biggest issue that we face isn't HC post Rhule, it's finding a quarterback. Running the ball only gets you so far, but the point of that game was to show that we handled the offense of a guy many thought could be our next HC until he decided to stay with DET.

Just now, Malt Liquor said:

9-19 as head coach in the NFL says alot

Fired black coaches after one year also says a lot...

David Culley / Lovie Smith most recently in back to back years in HOU say hello...

Go look at that 2018 ARI roster...they were picking top 10 for a reason

1 minute ago, AggieLean said:

Nah. 
 

He did a solid job, but I believe the team can do better. I also don’t trust Wilks to develop a new QB or hire the right team to develop one, and that’s what’s most important for the team right now. 

If McD and company can do it in BUF why not here, what's the reason for this concern with Wilks?

He didn't get to select a QB in ARI, and squeezed out 6-6 with Mayfield / Sam / PJ. 

And this isn't sarcasm, this is a legit open conversation. 

9 minutes ago, Brooklyn 3.0 said:

BuT hE DoeS tHingS tHe PaNTheRS wAY!

Had us .500 over his span vs .300 under Rhule...

Any data on these first year guys you have that says they're guaranteed to do better...?

Every NFL has an identity, you don't go to PIT and get rid of the terrible towel, or drop the who dat in NO. 

Rhule had no idea wtf he was doing, and all I'm saying is I'm not sold on a 1st year OC turned HC being the answer. 

Some of you want ''change for the sake of change''. 

And Off or Def HC, none of that matters until we find a QB, and I was on the ''I want an offensive minded coach to pair with our rookie'' train, I beat the drum for it after seeing how Rivera mismanaged Cam, but I also see how McD and company up in Buffalo haven't failed Josh Allen. I see the ''Panthers Way'' working in Buffalo better than it ever did here. 

15 minutes ago, UNCrules2187 said:

Brian Flores got DC interviews and is interviewing in Arizona for the HC job.

As for retaining Wilks, no thanks.

 

Rooney satisfaction. 

Though they have a black QB so maybe since Kyler is rumored to have ''next coach'' input I can see it.

1 minute ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Flores has actually gotten interviews this coaching cycle though.

Look, I love what Wilks did by coming in and stabilizing the ship. He did an admirable job with what he was handed. The team we assembled this past offseason was good enough to make the playoffs. The coaching staff we had at the beginning of the year was not. Matt Rhule sucked as a coach so our team sucked. All we needed was someone competent to lead the team, and lo and behold, we are contending for a playoff spot once Wilks took over. 

Having said that, he's just that - Competent. I don't think can out plan/out maneuver his opponents. You will know what you are up against week in and week out with him at the helm. He's Rivera 2.0 in that regard: Great guy. Leader of men. Stagnant and old-school. Inconsistent due to inflexibility. 

Our team was so bad the past few years under Rhule, that reverting back to the old Rivera Ways seems like a huge upgrade, and it unfortunately is, but we've seen that song and dance before and we know how it ends. There's a reason we moved on from Rivera in the first place. Just because we didn't get his replacement right doesn't mean we need to revert right back to his ways. 

 

Not as a HC, I want to say he garnered some attention as a DC, we are talking about HC options atm. So if you are Wilks and your goal is to be a HC why would you interview for less. 

Flores was added to Pittsburgh roster due to Mike Tomlin creating a job as he was not a coordinator. That was ''minority'' coaches sticking together. 

You expect a one year OC, turned first year HC to ''out plan / out coach'' seasoned NFL veteran coaches?

Look what we did to Ben Johnson's offense...

Held their run game to 2.6 ypc

Kept Amon-Ra under 100 receiving, and outside CJ getting mossed (51 yards) Chark was 3 for 57

_________________________________________________________

Are we talking about that kind of ''out planning / out coaching''? I mention Ben as he was the ''hot'' name. Ya'll forget Rhule was one of if not the ''HOTTEST'' name that cycle with a ''reputation'' for rebuilding programs. 

I'm just saying thinking that a 1st year OC turned HC is the way to the promised land is ''wishful'' thinking at best. And I get it offense has been so inept here, and we see NFL trends etc. but you also can't buy into the ''hype'' too much. 

Which is why I suggested Wilks on a 3yr / avg sal contract. Short enough to move on if needed, or room for an extension if earned inside two years. 

What we need more than anything that ALL of these OCs that people love so much have, is a QUARTERBACK. 

A Pep Hamilton pairing, I'd be open to Scott Turner returning, bringing in a coach from the SF, or LAR staff to be the OC makes sense to me as well. I'm just not sold on the ''inexperienced HC route''. Not after Rhule, and not with all the failure we've seen when teams try to ''find the next''. 

We can talk about the MIA coach, but look at the team he inherited...and what they did with all that cap space (Hill / Armstead / Chubb / etc.)

Taylor and CIN, hit on a number one QB overall, and as time has shown you have about a 50% chance to hit. 

Kingsbury flamed out in ARI, and ended up at odds with ''his guy'' at QB. 

Nathaniel Hackett GB QB guru - 4-11 and fired with Russell Wilson, as bad as a season as they had, we all have seen Russ up close versus us over the years, he's not like what we saw this year. 

There are other examples over the years, if we went the offensive coach route, give me Reich or Caldwell, I want experience first and foremost and they have legit resumes.  

7 minutes ago, CRA said:

or Rivera if Fox is busy? 

Each of those coaches got us to a Superbowl...

Not a strong argument, hell even with no QB in WAS Rivera made the playoffs, but you want to turn it over to an even less experienced person that Matt Rhule that just happens to have a year under their belt as an OC?

I understand the trend, I also understand that trend has failed in several places that tried to follow suit. There's only so many McVays / Shanahans. 

Ben Johnson 1st year OC, Ken Dorsey 1st year OC, etc. 

I want more offensive focus, but I also want a legit HC, Wilks showed you what he could do with basically nothing. The time in ARI in my opinion is a wash all things considered which I outlined above. 

I think many forget he's suing the NFL...

I'd wager that has more to due with outside lack of interest, Brian Flores ring a bell for any of you...

Not saying we need to agree, but it's more than his resume' 

And the year (2017) he was the DC was the year we had the worst secondary personnel I may have ever witnessed outside of Bradberry, who remembers Daryl Worley, Kevon Seymour, old Munnerlyn Ladarius Gunter...like let's keep it a buck, that 2017 defense outside of Luke, and an aging TD58 was trash. 

Kawaan Short was two years removed from his record setting year, Charles Johnson was in his LAST year with the team, and Addison...that defense was trash every day of the weak, and 2x on Sundays. 

And even with all of that to consider...we were 11th in points allowed, and 7th in yards allowed -- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/car/2017.htm

The frustration you are likely recalling was tied to the BEGININNING of that season as he was running a lot of man with pressure and guys like Worley was getting chewed up, when we went back to the ''keep it in front'' style based on personnel we ended up with one of the best defenses in the league which is WHY he got the HC opportunity in the first place. 

1 hour ago, therealmjl said:

Not hiring Fangio if he has interest would be an incredibly stupid move, regardless of who the HC is, so I fully expect us to announce the return of Wilks/Holcomb awful defense in 2023.

• 14th in rush yards allowed per run
• 22nd in pass yards per game allowed
• 22nd in total yards per game allowed
• 25th in sacks
• 23rd in 3rd down percentage
• 19th in points allowed

____________________________________________________

I wouldn't call the defense awful -- let's put it in context, no one after Brian Burans (12.5 sacks) that can rush the passer, no one after Jaycee Horn, and in some of your cases begrudgingly so after Donte' Jackson. A list of JAGs on the IDL, and Off-ball LB'er, Shaq is good but over-paid, Luvu had a career year but has limitations, Wilson fell out the rotation, and Littleton was a decent contributor. With the emergence of Derrick Brown, and IO the IDL depth was weak.

Even with those things, finishing 19th in PPG allowed is relatively impressive, for an offense as limited as ours was it was clear in several games the team just got tired on defense. Being top 15 in the league versus rushing yards per play is impressive as well. 

Some Playoff teams worse than 19th in PPG allowed:

• 18th - GB (included as they were one rank above us, but have a HOF QB)
• 21st - LAC
• 24th MIA 
• 25th - SEA
• 29th - MIN
• 30th - DET (included since they were a fringe playoff team if they could beat us)

_______________________________________________________

The one thing all those teams have in common...they all had legit offenses with either a combination of competent coaching, quarterback play, or both. 

No one here is gonna say Darnold is competent, at best you could maybe say streaky...he's inconsistent. 

The saying is, and always will fall back to, ''the best defense is a good offense'' and we haven't had a ''good offense'' since 2018 before Cam got injured. 

There's a lot of buzz out there and rightfully so, but I think we should hire Steve Wilks.

Think about where we were in as recent as 2018 -- 6-2, on the verge of a playoff caliber season, and then the hit happens. 

Fast forward to 2019 -- Lisfranc ends Cam's season in by Week 3 I believe it was (The TNF game where CMC came up short to win)

2020 - 2022 - The biggest poo show I have EVER witnessed at the professional level (outside Meyer), Rhule comes in preaching a college style rebuild, strips any and all ties to what makes the Panthers the Panthers in the first place, and inserts his generic ''insert team name here'' OOU crap (if you don't know about the OOU stuff look it up)

• In this time we cut Cam, and replace him with Teddy B for ''MORE MONEY'' only to trade him a season later for a 6th or 7th while eating dead cap, we pass on QBs in the 2021 draft because we traded for Sam and gave up a haul to get for a QB who was a bust at that point, and before the 2021 draft ends, we've guaranteed his 5th year at short of 19M. Sam and the OL are a complete poo show in 2021, in 2022 we trade for another QB his current team wanted to replace / upgrade from Baker Mayfield, who somehow even with the new OL, CMC, and DJ was worse than Sam, and ends up benched in favor of PJ Walker. 
• In this time Rhule won 11 games - 5-11 / 5-12 / 1-4 - two and a half years into his ''7'' year plan. 

_______________________________________________________

I say all of that to set up the following, anyone with a set of eyes knows that Wilks was set up to fail once management decided not to let him select his QB - ''see Josh Rosen since his time in ARI''. People may forget how old that team had become after the Bruce Arians run there with Carson Palmer. Wilks finishes 3-13 and is replaced by an inexperienced coach, who was just FIRED in college, and is given the chance to draft ''his guy'' Kyler number one overall only to be fired after the 3rd year.

Wilks helped the Panthers become a serious team again going 6-6 over 12 games winning more games in a shortened stint than Rhule ever did in any full season, and did so with even less than Rhule had at his disposal at any point in time. CMC was injured under Rhule...ok he was traded for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Robbie who was a thousand yard receiver became a JAG with Sam, and Baker, he was eventually traded away for a 5th from ARI if memory serves. Chuba who many of us likely loathed after the bad hands / fumbles in his rookie year, all of a sudden became a legit contributor, and D'Onta established himself as one of the better backs in the league run production wise, and was less than 100 yards away from a 1,000 yard season had it not been for a weak ejection in Week 18. Then the biggest Rhule snubs TMJ, and Bozeman, TMJ showed you why he was a 2nd round pick flashing the 50/50 ball ability, along side his speed / size / athleticism. Bozeman came in and immediately anchored the OL a unit that was as sound as any for the majority of the year even with a rookie, and two new additions in free agency and Brady C in year two. 

''But he's too conservative'' let's be honest, looking at what we had on offense / who was calling the plays, alongside the fact that our defense while solid / good is limited no 2nd pass rusher, question marks in the secondary, speed at the second level, etc. we were not constructed to be overly aggressive, for the most part we were aggressive when needed for the most part, and maybe we left some plays out there we'd like to have back in hindsight -- news flash, all coaches / every team feels this way. 

Considering Wilks took a 1-4 team, and got them to 7-10 with all we had surrounding us is about as impressive as it gets, and what's more...the players respect him / his approach. He helped set franchise....let me repeat that FRANCHISE records offensively even though he has a defensive background. To me if you are Tepper, let's see where this goes under his leadership, let him hire ''his'' staff. Many of you may not have known this but see this quote from Rivera:

“The hard part for him there, he was the last guy hired,” Rivera said for Sports Illustrated. “So all the guys that were on his coaching list, they were already locked in. He had to hire guys that he really didn’t want to have to hire. He had to keep guys he didn’t want to keep.”

https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2022/02/04/ron-rivera-steve-wilks-coaching-staff-with-cardinals-was-part-of-problem-in-2018/#:~:text=Offensive coordinator Mike McCoy was,Foote%2C Steve Heiden and others.

That is huge, I don't agree with giving coaches ''full'' roster control (what is rumored for Payton), but they need to be able to hire their staff, these are the guys they work with week in and week out, you need that group of men to be on the same page if you want to see results.

I think we have the right guy, we just need to give him the opportunity, 3 year deal, league average salary, and let's keep Panther's football moving forward -- #KEEPPOUNDING

14 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

You're still trading for his college potential at this point because his pro performance has been... disappointing (and that's being kind).

Especially true when a seventh round afterthought is doing in his rookie season what Lance hasn't been able to do being a focal point for two years.

So no, I wouldn't.

He wasn't a final point for two years...he sat behind Jimmy as a rookie, then got hurt in like his 2nd or 3rd game this year. 

Considering the investment they made, I doubt they move him for low IF they even consider it. 

If he scratches his potential THAT team they'll be even better until they have to pay him.

Now if they believe in Brock who has more time left on a rookie deal and is cheaper then they could bolster the roster with additional picks. But I wouldn't give up more than a 3rd. 

1 hour ago, ncfan said:

Will Kunkle who covers the Panthers just said on WFNZ 

“I don’t think the Panthers draft a QB”  

“They don’t like any of the QBs that are expected to be available.  And do not want to move up for one of these guys.”

 

Can't say this until you AT LEAST have a coach, and OC on the staff. 

6 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

We also aren’t going to have a compete roster with nice depth. Very few teams in the NFL do…

The ones that do, generally have a Good QB on a rookie contract.

16 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

One huge flaw in your argument.   We are not winning NOW.  We are still a ways away from being competitive.   2 years minimum.   And that’s best case scenario 

After this FA period / draft this response could be considered flawed. 

Iirc the former Vikes OC that became the Browns coach (Stefanski) and got a playoff appearance out of Baker is from the same coach tree as McVay (Mike Shanahan, Gary Kubiak) which features the PA RO, bootlegs etc.

Those types of plays allow his (Baker's) stature to be less of an issue. Their OL isn't better than ours, the offense they run just suits him better and McVay is better than McAdoo.

That's not hate, just a fact. 

On 12/21/2022 at 9:42 AM, Dingo_ate_Babies said:

12 million a year seems a bit high for him.

It's a little high for a C, but I'm also not surprised salary cap keeps going up so it's natural.