Navy_football

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I mean, I gave you the available numbers, you can choose to believe them or not. I can also tell you that TMac is actually a 4.2 guy but it doesn't make it any more true.

Your numbers aren't correct. All AI generated:

1. you admit both AJ and Devonta are sub 4.5 guys.

2. Jaxon Smith-Njigba's unofficial 40-yard dash time was 4.48 seconds at his 2023 Ohio State Pro Day, though some scouts clocked him slightly faster (around 4.46-4.52), with a goal of 4.47, showcasing his agility despite not running at the NFL Combine. He excelled in short-area quickness drills, with a 6.57-second 3-cone drill and 3.93-second 20-yard shuttle. 

3. Marvin Harrison Jr.'s 40-yard dash time is often reported in the low 4.4-second range, with specific unofficial times varying from 4.39 to 4.49 seconds, though he didn't officially run at the 2024 NFL Combine, with reports based on his impressive game speed and pro day figures suggesting exceptional speed for his size. He himself aimed for the high 4.3s, and scouts were buzzing about his elite speed, with some sources citing a 4.42 or even a faster 4.39 from other sources.  

4. Bourne and Jennings are the 3 and 4 in SF. They were not slated as 1 and 2 before injuries.

Ricky Pearsall ran an official 4.41-second 40-yard dash at the 2024 NFL Scouting Combine, showcasing impressive speed and athleticism that contributed to his first-round selection by the San Francisco 49ers. 

Brandon Aiyuk ran a 4.50-second 40-yard dash at the 2020 NFL Scouting Combine, though his team and coaches noted he played faster in pads and his time was impacted by a recent core muscle surgery, with some believing his true speed was better than that number suggested, similar to how Jerry Rice played faster than his combine time. Ran a 4.5 after core muscle surgery. He's definitely a sub 4.5 guy.  

5. Agree with Adams and Puka. They are the only other example. Really good frigging example for your argument. But the only ones. 

6. Jameson Williams is a speed demon. No way he runs more than a 4.4.

52 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

There aren't many. Here are the close and maybes.

Eagles: AJ Brown was a 4.49 guy and DeVonta Smith was supposedly a high 4.4 guy as a sophomore(he didn't run at the combine or his Pro Day, so this is going to be sketchy in general). 

Lions: Williams didn't run the 40(ACL injury, although he is likely a sub 4.5 guy on the eye test) and St. Brown was a 4.51 guy.

Seahawks: Smith-Njigba was a 4.5-4.55 guy(didn't run at the combine, numbers from stopwatches at pro day) and Cooper Kupp ran a 4.62.

Rams: Adams was a 4.56 and Nacua was a 4.57.

49ers: Jennings was a 4.72 and Bourne was a 4.68.

Cardinals: Wilson was a 4.62 and Harrison Jr. is a complete question. The last recorded 40 time was in HS at 4.6. Likely he is faster than that but it's unknown how much.

 

AJ Brown and Devonta Smith are both sub 4.5 guys. 

Williams is definitely a speed receiver and sub 4.5 guy.

Smith-Njigba is a sub 4.5 guy.

I agree Adams and Puka are not sub 4.5 guys. And they are absolute monsters on the field. Great example. 

Bourne and Jennings are not the two best receivers in San Fran. It's Aiyuk and Ricky Pearsall. Bourne and Jennings only got so much run because of injuries. Aiyuk and Pearsall are sub 4.5 guys. 

MHJ is definitely a sub 4.5 guy. 

17 minutes ago, CRA said:

Bryce does it schemed up in very select areas of the field.  Which in no way shape or form has anything to do with a naturally aggressive downfield thrower 

Moose wasn’t considerable faster.  His top end speed was always questioned and was a possession WR….with same type fluff day 40 as Tmac.  Are we now trying to act like Mushin was a blazer in the name of defending Bryce? 

What are you even talking about? You said Delhomme made deep passes to Muhsin. I said Young made deep passes to TMac and Coker. I never once said Muhsin was some blazer, but he did have more speed than TMac and Coker are. He also had a speed guy on the other side of the field to help open things up for him. Just because I'm not crapping on Bryce doesn't mean I'm defending him. 

7 minutes ago, strato said:

There are a few guys on that list that are interesting to me, half have the makes bonehead plays but really talented downside.  
 

 I don’t know why because I am not a fan  but when I saw Murray I had a good feeling. If he didn’t have the no film watching rep he has I’d say bring him in.

Play backyard ball for a year or two. He can sling it and can get away from people a lot better than what we have.

There are a few others we’ll have plenty of time coming up to consider them. 

Yeah Murray is a freak! Small, fast and crazy arm talent. Doubt he'd come here for peanuts though. 

1 minute ago, CRA said:

That also the #1 offense in the NFL.  And before DeVante they were lighting folks up with Puca and Kupp. 

top of the NFL receiving books is full of 4.5 guys

Cupp is another 100 skill level player. If we think TMac and Coker are on that level right now, then that's just not being honest. And the Rams have always had a blazer out there that teams had to back up for. We have XL. But I agree, Bryce needs to take more shots deep. 

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

Jake Delhomme threw it over people heads with freaking Mushin Muhammad.  It happened because Jake was an aggressive downfield passer. 

NFL history is full of non-Tyreek Hill’s who got vertical.  

Right... and Bryce Young has thrown it over defenders' heads with a rookie TMac and a 2nd year Coker. Both considerably slower than Muhsin.

Speed matters. It's not always running past people straight down the field. A guy that can run routes and then blow by you is dangerous and will always need to be accounted for - usually with more than one DB. 

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

Oh, oh. I see what you are saying. Yeah but not all of those were draft for draft replacements. Jones was a dumpster dive. The overall point I was making is that it is becoming more common to see this quick pivots as people realize their mistakes. It happens with a lot of busts historically at QB. 

IDK about "most teams" have fast, capable WR's. It's a mixed bag across the league. There are the Hopkins, Evans, etc that aren't sub-4.5 guys and are still star players.

Yeah. Find me another team in the NFL where their 2 best WRs run mid 4.5s. Speed ain't everything, but let's not act like it doesn't matter in coverage. The narrative has been that defenses creep up because Bryce can't throw over their heads. Nah, it's because our receivers are slow. Unless you want to count XL, Mingo and DJ Chark. But then that whole skill thing is thrown out the window. 

Edit: Actually the Rams don't have speed with Puka and Devante. But their skill levels are some of the best the league has seen. That's the only other team I can think of. 

8 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

 Canales needs to have him do our sneaks. Its a huge disadvantage to have a qb that cant sneak it. 

I agree. Prove that he can't do it or just let him have at it. Can't keep trying to protect him. I mean this is football. 

3 hours ago, electro's horse said:

Count the linebackers again 

Yeah I can't tell who's a LB from that still. 

Okay researched the numbers. #42 and #7 are LBs dropping back into coverage. Not sure who the free rusher is. They sent 4 guys against 5 offensive linemen and ended up with a free rusher. That's friggin insane. 

1 minute ago, Shotgun said:

 Has Young ever got a 1st down with a qb sneak? 

Yes on his only attempt.

2 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

I really, really agree with this. Why do you have a big, athletic guy with reach competing with the sidelines when he could do a better job in the center of the field or running the opposite seam to the TE?

 

That and a lack of situational awareness there. He's just better when he has room to operate and not have to think about too many things at once. Catch the ball, then run to daylight. Keep it simple and plain.

9 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Good to see merit winning out here.

Maybe XL roars back or finds him a place in the third WR spot.

He's got some serious competition for it though with Horn, Jr. and Tremayne. And you can't tell me that David Moore doesn't know how to fight and compete for a roster spot. 

Work, man. Woulda been easier for him out of the gate rather than here at the end of the season.

If Moore is back, XL will drop to 4th and backup to Coker. Probably best for now that'll give him favorable match ups inside the numbers. Keep that dude away from the sidelines. 

Pretty sure Joe Flacco played his 5th year without an extension in place. I think they tried to lowball him and he bet on himself. It has happened before but that one comes to mind since he won a Super Bowl with the Ravens. 

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Buddy, look at the litany of horrific draft mistakes that were made from that era. Assuming a "no-brainer" pick is made by us is pure insanity. There is a reason Fitterer is far and away the worst GM this franchise has ever had.

I am confused about the bolded statement. What do you mean "find a top 6 draft pick for cheap" versus "paying too much for a 3rd rounder." These seem to be incongruent statements. 

I am very sure about Bryce because he has pretty conclusively proven what he is and what his limitations will always be. I don't think his mindset will ever change enough to fix that.

We do have a couple of sub 4.5 WR's. Horn Jr. and.....lol....XL. This is why I don't get too hyperfocused on 40 times. Doesn't mean I don't want speedsters but if you look at the top 5 40 time guys at every combine you don't that often see them being top WR's. 

The QB replacements you named were #6 in the draft, #1, #1 and Mr. Irrelevant. i just ignored Mr. Irrelevant as he's an outlier to ever even make a team. Malik was a 3rd rounder and I wouldn't pay a lot of money to him. I'd probably be more open to the higher drafted guy that has shown me something in his career. And if Bryce earns a top 5 (or #1) pick, then that should be in play for his replacement. 

As for WRs, I agree. Speed doesn't mean good. Most teams have a good player like Thielen and Moore that can also run sub 4.5. That isn't the fastest guy by any stretch but it's fast enough to pressure a DB if he's a good route runner. A good CB will just sit on a guy that runs a 4.57. He ain't worried about him running by him. Horn might be a guy but he can't get on the field. XL? Well. I'm not hopeful for my fellow South Carolinian. 

12 minutes ago, strato said:

Agree totally. We have fuged ourselves post Rivera on continuity. Continuity is a highly regard pillar of sustained success IMO. Lack of it, very detrimental to the same. 

 But a short term QB change to hold the line while you find another guy is not doing that. 

This thing with Bryce, now, is moving into the territory of the ultimatum the long time girlfriends give. 
To me Bryce is the girl sitting around the house in sweats and going to bed with face cream and a hair net.  The one you thought was hot and you move in together and it ain’t what you thought it would be. And now she wants that ring. 
It’s on you if you do it. 
 

Love the analogy. Though I wouldn't marry someone for looks alone, if she looks good with sweats and a hairnet, she can get wifed up. That and she isn't bat ish crazy. Don't ever marry bat ish crazy. You'll have bat ish crazy kids too. Trust the old guy. 

Honestly Bryce is not in a position to make ultimatums. He just isn't. His case his unique and he knows it. So does his agent. We've seen QBs gamble on themselves before. Some have won. Some have lost. None have forced the team's hand if they have never put up numbers that demand it. 

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Let's not assume that standing pat would have resulted in a sudden spurge in good decision making. Don't forget who was making all those roster calls at the time. Bryce or not, we would have fuged it up in some way because we had idiots at the helm. We may still yet.

Also, it's easy to say we can't get in the habit of switching QB's like that but there are also plenty of situations where that flip was the correct decision. Richardson to Jones, Rosen to Murray, Fields to Williams, Lance to Purdy(technically some nuance to this), etc.

There is no real danger of Bryce leaving and suddenly becoming an elite QB. We all do know this, no matter how big of a Bryce stan you may be. His ceiling is middling game manager. So there isn't some crazy risk of moving on.

No way they pass on Jalen Carter at 9. That was a Star Lotulelei opportunity. Now every other pick is definitely subject to be screwed. 

As for those QB replacements, if we can find a top 6 draft pick that'll come in to replace BY for the cheap, that's different than paying too much for a 3rd rounder that's never done anything. If Bryce earns us a top 5 pick again, then we should definitely consider replacing him if our guy is available when we're on the clock. And still. I can't say for certain what Bryce will be. You're more confident than I am in terms of BY's final product. I think the team still doesn't have a strong receiving group. Though in a year or 2, this group could be really good. They're just young right now and make a lot of young player mistakes. A player like BY doesn't do well with that. He's been most productive with reliable guys that are where they're supposed to be when they're supposed to be there - even older guys like Thielen and Moore. Carolina really needs a guy like that, that runs a sub 4.5. Most NFL teams have at least one. 

Adam Thielen had 1000 yards with rookie Bryce. I guess he's using that as comparison. Just kidding. Calm down. 

8 minutes ago, cranky said:

It's not about becoming elite, it's about being confident enough to be more aggresive offensively. 

Honestly. You can see it on the field. Bryce will literally skip a pass on the ground rather than throw a contested catch to XL. Especially when it's one where XL would have to fight back to the ball. Coker is actually really good at that. Coker lacks real NFL speed (not a small thing), but he maxes out in most other categories. 

1 minute ago, DCR said:

I was just thinking that i remember this 

didn't think i would be able to find it.

Yeah, he also said Mingo was the guy. Guess .500 is better then .000

11 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

TMac has work to do but he is the first potentially elite WR we have had in a long time. I am not worried about his catch% for a rookie(not uncommon for it to be lower than elite the first couple of years).

Coker is tracking well. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, because he technically has had very, very modest overall production but if he is given the correct opportunities, I do think he could be one of the best UDFA's we have ever had. It's going to be about the coaching staff actually finally realizing it. 

Agree TMac has elite potention. But for right now, who would you throw to with the game on the line? One play to win it all? Who would get open? Who would you trust most to make the catch right now?

1 minute ago, coffee said:

Well, quite frankly, yours is a fine theory as well except that we are no longer getting worse as a team.  Quite the opposite.  And we would've been MUCH better off if we'd spent the resources on a better team than on yet another QB.

If you go back to almost any recent QB and do the math in your head, we'd be a better team with that QB and having spent the resources on the team around him.

 

How would you like to have, say, Baker Mayfield as our QB, CMC as our RB, and Brock Bowers as our TE?  That's the type thing we've given up by listening to everyone say we need to move to yet another QB.

Not to mention DJ Moore at WR, probably Jalen Carter instead of moving up to get BY (he would have fallen right in our laps - Carter and Derrick Brown, damn!), anyone but Mingo since we'd still have DJ. Not sure CMC would be here. That wasn't a move for a QB. But not giving up draft picks for Sam Darnold too. 

You can't get into the habit of switching QBs like that. It could take a decade before you find the guy. And another 5-10 years to rebuild the rest of the team because of what you gave up to get them. Build the team, then get the QB. Sure, take a flyer on a day 2/3 guy in the draft or a FA as a project. But changing QBs, HCs and GMs every year or so is not a recipe for success. 

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

I do think this place suffers from being very myopic. I am lucky enough to usually get to watch most NFL games, hence why I constantly point out that there legitimately have been several QB's make starts this NFL season that are worse than Bryce.

But it was also clear that Bryce is in the bottom 20% of that overall group.

I watch quite a few games too, so hear you on that. 

Question for you... Do you think Bryce would be better if he took more shots downfield, or do you think he wouldn't be able to pull it off because of limitations?

6 minutes ago, ClawOn said:

Finally. I wonder where Coker would go in a 24 redraft. I would think no worse than the 3rd, but probably the 2nd.

I know one team that would choose him over the first round WR they traded up to get. 

1 minute ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Bold strategy Cotton.  But seriously sometimes the devil you know is a completely non viable option.  There's almost 0 risk going with a different option.

If we don't bring in someone else next year I think there's a very high likelihood the team regresses and the house gets cleaned.  So its kind of a big deal to the guys running the show right now, whether they realize it or not.

We got incredibly fortunate to win 8 games, as we got a lot of bounces this season.  Typically the luck index bounces the other way the following season.  We'll need more than luck to make it back to the playoffs next year.

Not bold at all. Actually very conservative. Malik could become worse than Bryce on his worst days for all we know. Picking him up as a backup with backup money and expectations is fine (with an opportunity to win the position), but penciling him in as the starter over BY is probably not prudent. 

6 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Yep, need some qb, defensive help, couple of lineman and we are middle of pack at worst

Plus a couple of stand up LBs, and a couple of offensive guys that make defenders miss in the open field (WR, RB or TE), a real Nickel and a true FS type that can cover. Other than that, we're pretty good.