Navy_football

3 hours ago, electro's horse said:

Count the linebackers again 

Yeah I can't tell who's a LB from that still. 

Okay researched the numbers. #42 and #7 are LBs dropping back into coverage. Not sure who the free rusher is. They sent 4 guys against 5 offensive linemen and ended up with a free rusher. That's friggin insane. 

1 minute ago, Shotgun said:

 Has Young ever got a 1st down with a qb sneak? 

Yes on his only attempt.

2 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

I really, really agree with this. Why do you have a big, athletic guy with reach competing with the sidelines when he could do a better job in the center of the field or running the opposite seam to the TE?

 

That and a lack of situational awareness there. He's just better when he has room to operate and not have to think about too many things at once. Catch the ball, then run to daylight. Keep it simple and plain.

9 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Good to see merit winning out here.

Maybe XL roars back or finds him a place in the third WR spot.

He's got some serious competition for it though with Horn, Jr. and Tremayne. And you can't tell me that David Moore doesn't know how to fight and compete for a roster spot. 

Work, man. Woulda been easier for him out of the gate rather than here at the end of the season.

If Moore is back, XL will drop to 4th and backup to Coker. Probably best for now that'll give him favorable match ups inside the numbers. Keep that dude away from the sidelines. 

Pretty sure Joe Flacco played his 5th year without an extension in place. I think they tried to lowball him and he bet on himself. It has happened before but that one comes to mind since he won a Super Bowl with the Ravens. 

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Buddy, look at the litany of horrific draft mistakes that were made from that era. Assuming a "no-brainer" pick is made by us is pure insanity. There is a reason Fitterer is far and away the worst GM this franchise has ever had.

I am confused about the bolded statement. What do you mean "find a top 6 draft pick for cheap" versus "paying too much for a 3rd rounder." These seem to be incongruent statements. 

I am very sure about Bryce because he has pretty conclusively proven what he is and what his limitations will always be. I don't think his mindset will ever change enough to fix that.

We do have a couple of sub 4.5 WR's. Horn Jr. and.....lol....XL. This is why I don't get too hyperfocused on 40 times. Doesn't mean I don't want speedsters but if you look at the top 5 40 time guys at every combine you don't that often see them being top WR's. 

The QB replacements you named were #6 in the draft, #1, #1 and Mr. Irrelevant. i just ignored Mr. Irrelevant as he's an outlier to ever even make a team. Malik was a 3rd rounder and I wouldn't pay a lot of money to him. I'd probably be more open to the higher drafted guy that has shown me something in his career. And if Bryce earns a top 5 (or #1) pick, then that should be in play for his replacement. 

As for WRs, I agree. Speed doesn't mean good. Most teams have a good player like Thielen and Moore that can also run sub 4.5. That isn't the fastest guy by any stretch but it's fast enough to pressure a DB if he's a good route runner. A good CB will just sit on a guy that runs a 4.57. He ain't worried about him running by him. Horn might be a guy but he can't get on the field. XL? Well. I'm not hopeful for my fellow South Carolinian. 

12 minutes ago, strato said:

Agree totally. We have fuged ourselves post Rivera on continuity. Continuity is a highly regard pillar of sustained success IMO. Lack of it, very detrimental to the same. 

 But a short term QB change to hold the line while you find another guy is not doing that. 

This thing with Bryce, now, is moving into the territory of the ultimatum the long time girlfriends give. 
To me Bryce is the girl sitting around the house in sweats and going to bed with face cream and a hair net.  The one you thought was hot and you move in together and it ain’t what you thought it would be. And now she wants that ring. 
It’s on you if you do it. 
 

Love the analogy. Though I wouldn't marry someone for looks alone, if she looks good with sweats and a hairnet, she can get wifed up. That and she isn't bat ish crazy. Don't ever marry bat ish crazy. You'll have bat ish crazy kids too. Trust the old guy. 

Honestly Bryce is not in a position to make ultimatums. He just isn't. His case his unique and he knows it. So does his agent. We've seen QBs gamble on themselves before. Some have won. Some have lost. None have forced the team's hand if they have never put up numbers that demand it. 

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Let's not assume that standing pat would have resulted in a sudden spurge in good decision making. Don't forget who was making all those roster calls at the time. Bryce or not, we would have fuged it up in some way because we had idiots at the helm. We may still yet.

Also, it's easy to say we can't get in the habit of switching QB's like that but there are also plenty of situations where that flip was the correct decision. Richardson to Jones, Rosen to Murray, Fields to Williams, Lance to Purdy(technically some nuance to this), etc.

There is no real danger of Bryce leaving and suddenly becoming an elite QB. We all do know this, no matter how big of a Bryce stan you may be. His ceiling is middling game manager. So there isn't some crazy risk of moving on.

No way they pass on Jalen Carter at 9. That was a Star Lotulelei opportunity. Now every other pick is definitely subject to be screwed. 

As for those QB replacements, if we can find a top 6 draft pick that'll come in to replace BY for the cheap, that's different than paying too much for a 3rd rounder that's never done anything. If Bryce earns us a top 5 pick again, then we should definitely consider replacing him if our guy is available when we're on the clock. And still. I can't say for certain what Bryce will be. You're more confident than I am in terms of BY's final product. I think the team still doesn't have a strong receiving group. Though in a year or 2, this group could be really good. They're just young right now and make a lot of young player mistakes. A player like BY doesn't do well with that. He's been most productive with reliable guys that are where they're supposed to be when they're supposed to be there - even older guys like Thielen and Moore. Carolina really needs a guy like that, that runs a sub 4.5. Most NFL teams have at least one. 

Adam Thielen had 1000 yards with rookie Bryce. I guess he's using that as comparison. Just kidding. Calm down. 

8 minutes ago, cranky said:

It's not about becoming elite, it's about being confident enough to be more aggresive offensively. 

Honestly. You can see it on the field. Bryce will literally skip a pass on the ground rather than throw a contested catch to XL. Especially when it's one where XL would have to fight back to the ball. Coker is actually really good at that. Coker lacks real NFL speed (not a small thing), but he maxes out in most other categories. 

1 minute ago, DCR said:

I was just thinking that i remember this 

didn't think i would be able to find it.

Yeah, he also said Mingo was the guy. Guess .500 is better then .000

11 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

TMac has work to do but he is the first potentially elite WR we have had in a long time. I am not worried about his catch% for a rookie(not uncommon for it to be lower than elite the first couple of years).

Coker is tracking well. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, because he technically has had very, very modest overall production but if he is given the correct opportunities, I do think he could be one of the best UDFA's we have ever had. It's going to be about the coaching staff actually finally realizing it. 

Agree TMac has elite potention. But for right now, who would you throw to with the game on the line? One play to win it all? Who would get open? Who would you trust most to make the catch right now?

1 minute ago, coffee said:

Well, quite frankly, yours is a fine theory as well except that we are no longer getting worse as a team.  Quite the opposite.  And we would've been MUCH better off if we'd spent the resources on a better team than on yet another QB.

If you go back to almost any recent QB and do the math in your head, we'd be a better team with that QB and having spent the resources on the team around him.

 

How would you like to have, say, Baker Mayfield as our QB, CMC as our RB, and Brock Bowers as our TE?  That's the type thing we've given up by listening to everyone say we need to move to yet another QB.

Not to mention DJ Moore at WR, probably Jalen Carter instead of moving up to get BY (he would have fallen right in our laps - Carter and Derrick Brown, damn!), anyone but Mingo since we'd still have DJ. Not sure CMC would be here. That wasn't a move for a QB. But not giving up draft picks for Sam Darnold too. 

You can't get into the habit of switching QBs like that. It could take a decade before you find the guy. And another 5-10 years to rebuild the rest of the team because of what you gave up to get them. Build the team, then get the QB. Sure, take a flyer on a day 2/3 guy in the draft or a FA as a project. But changing QBs, HCs and GMs every year or so is not a recipe for success. 

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

I do think this place suffers from being very myopic. I am lucky enough to usually get to watch most NFL games, hence why I constantly point out that there legitimately have been several QB's make starts this NFL season that are worse than Bryce.

But it was also clear that Bryce is in the bottom 20% of that overall group.

I watch quite a few games too, so hear you on that. 

Question for you... Do you think Bryce would be better if he took more shots downfield, or do you think he wouldn't be able to pull it off because of limitations?

6 minutes ago, ClawOn said:

Finally. I wonder where Coker would go in a 24 redraft. I would think no worse than the 3rd, but probably the 2nd.

I know one team that would choose him over the first round WR they traded up to get. 

1 minute ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

Bold strategy Cotton.  But seriously sometimes the devil you know is a completely non viable option.  There's almost 0 risk going with a different option.

If we don't bring in someone else next year I think there's a very high likelihood the team regresses and the house gets cleaned.  So its kind of a big deal to the guys running the show right now, whether they realize it or not.

We got incredibly fortunate to win 8 games, as we got a lot of bounces this season.  Typically the luck index bounces the other way the following season.  We'll need more than luck to make it back to the playoffs next year.

Not bold at all. Actually very conservative. Malik could become worse than Bryce on his worst days for all we know. Picking him up as a backup with backup money and expectations is fine (with an opportunity to win the position), but penciling him in as the starter over BY is probably not prudent. 

6 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

Yep, need some qb, defensive help, couple of lineman and we are middle of pack at worst

Plus a couple of stand up LBs, and a couple of offensive guys that make defenders miss in the open field (WR, RB or TE), a real Nickel and a true FS type that can cover. Other than that, we're pretty good. 

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Money and draft capital are big factors. We shouldn't be spending wildly in either case unless we are making a long term commitment and the target is worthy of such. I would be nervous to see this coaching staff and FO do that because I question their competence.

I will also say I don't think it even has to be about this idea of "competition" or a "camp competition." If you even go into 2026 with a new QB(or QB's) as depth, they need to be better than or potentially better than Bryce. That should be the case if for no other reason than when Bryce fails, we have some sort of viable options still available to try. What does Dalton accomplish?

I would gladly take Willis.....details depending. It definitely isn't going to be on a long term, high value contract. That's crazy.

His ceiling is astronomically higher than Bryce and in his limited action in GB this year, he was significantly more effective than Bryce. Smaaaaaall sample size, though. And 0-2 in that sample size, as well. Not someone that anyone should be hyping as a long term answer.

That's an overly optimistic take. Particularly because of the limited action part. To say you'd take that guy over any 3 years starter in the NFL is a tough one. The devil you know is better than the one you don't. We have no idea who Malik Willis is or will be because he hasn't played enough. 

21 hours ago, electro's horse said:

Of course defenses are playing nickel and dime. The panthers run the ball out of 31 sets all the time. You still have to have personnel match. Like here you, y is manned up, I think seam receiver is too, and the whole defense is like “lmao Bryce”

I mean I don't know the down and distance, but this can't be the answer for "show me how defenses play the run and force Bryce Young to beat you". There are only 4 d linemen and maybe 1 LB on the field. They are obviously playing the pass. And yes, Bryce missed multiple opportunities in that game with too many dink and dunks and locking onto WRs from the snap. He isn't normally THAT bad though. This was probably the worse I've ever seen him. 

So yall are out on Bryce, but in on Malik Willis? That's... interesting. 

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

No one is suggesting going all out to get a QB.  You can get a cheap QB that raises the ceiling of our O to be a bridge......while you wait to actually go address the QB. 

Bryce is a bridge QB.  That's the tier QB he is.  A body a team would have as they wait to make a move for QB.  Folks just want a better bridge QB that makes the O more threatening until we go make a move for QB

If a "bridge" QB beats him out then so be it. Just can't see paying $10M+ per or giving up picks. 

6 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

I don't think Malik Willis is going to demand huge started money but he will get paid decently. It may be he gets a short term contract with a bad team as their started under a new coach. 

But I think QB is one of our bigger needs... However, we don't really have the ability right now to fix it without damaging the rest of the roster like we did in 2023. So yeah I agree... I just don't want a new contract for Bryce. But I'm actually fine with the extension as long as we really do upgrade the QB room overall.

Right. but no extension for Bryce yet. 5th year option? Sure. I think Bryce's camp will agree they aren't in the best place to demand an extension or top dollar. 

1 minute ago, mav1234 said:

A new contract right now would be a mistake. 

If Bryce is truly clutch, he'll show it in the playoffs.

Assuming a typical Bryce performance, I'd like to bring in Malik Willis, and see how camp goes and if Bryce struggles early again and we regress to the mean in one point games with awful offense, we give him a shot.

If they can bring in competition that doesn't prevent them from bringing in definite starters at other positions of need, then they should ABSOLUTELY do that. No questions asked. But there are way too many holes on this team that need to be addressed before going all out to get a QB. FTR, the same was true in 2023.

3 minutes ago, shaqattaq said:

I technically agree with everything you're saying, BUT... Making the playoffs with a losing record is like screwing your cousin; the result is the same but it's a lot harder to feel good about it.

ok?...

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah but it didn't have to get in via tiebreakers. That doesn't happen that often.

That's why I am generally agreeing with @csx. We literally backed into the playoffs on a 2 game losing streak, one of those games being a "win and get in" scenario that ONLY applied to us.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it is ultimately....a little pathetic.

Now, it's not as pathetic as missing out on getting into the playoffs to an 8-9 team that backed in. So take that, Taint, Cuc and Falcunt queefs.

Oh I don't disagree that Carolina was the master of their own fate and put it into ATL's hands. Not a great look. But getting into the playoffs for a team as young and devoid of talent as this one is no small feat. The margin of error in the NFL is miniscule. One play. One player falling down or slipping. One bad penalty call (or two, or three, or four) could be the difference in winning or losing.