Icege

I cannot wait to use this as a react for the next 6 months

13 hours ago, CRA said:

To an extent that’s a little bit  what you see with the pass O.  Our WRs sucked per PFF.  League worst..  Bryce was super inaccurate and off target with his throws.  League worst.  We also didn’t generate a lot of production in general.  BUT…..if you just cherry pick a small amount of deep throws late in the year…..it was awesome. 

I still think we are striving to get to average O and average D.   

This is incredibly dishonest, and you know it.

We didn't cherry-pick a "small amount of deep throws late in the year." We reviewed every one of Bryce's deep throws using the NFL's own film and data via NFL Pro. The analysis was thorough, transparent, and contextualized with game film. Dismissing that as cherry-picking is not only incredibly disingenuous, it is textbook gaslighting as well.

Let's walk through the actual data:

• Top-10 in deep ball accuracy
• Top-5 in short-range accuracy
• Bottom-10 in intermediate accuracy (not ideal, but not "league worst" either)

If you're going to lean on the "no pressure" qualifier again, his deep passing under pressure was covered. So no... it wasn't cherry-picked. Look, you don't have to believe in Bryce. That's your right... but misrepresenting clear, consistent evidence crosses the line from skepticism into willful intellectual dishonesty.

49 minutes ago, ECHornet said:

He signed a two year deal in March of 2025…

https://www.panthers.com/news/panthers-agree-to-terms-with-tommy-tremble-tight-end-free-agent

Oh damn, my bad. Could've sworn it was a 3yr deal last offseason.

Looking at the details now and it might effectively be just 1yr looking at the numbers for 2026. Team saves $6M and just accrues a little over $2M dead cap. Costs less than $4M going into this season.

Got a feeling that we are gonna see a lot of Sanders/Evans when they put 2 TEs out there to see if they can move on from Tremble.

Glad to see them playing it cautious. I wonder if this was due to the hit he took against the Bears that knocked him out. He was out for two games in the concussion protocol, came back for the Broncos but was listed  questionable due to back, then missed two more games before returning to finish the season.

He was also extended before last season started, so well before the injury ever occurred let alone when surgery needed to be discussed.

1 hour ago, CarolinaLivin said:

Question. Outside of Joe Person, Sheena Quick, Mike Kaye, David Newton... Who else are good twitter/x accounts to follow for Panthers reporting/content? 

DM sent

3 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

If those stats you are quoting are from PFF then why in the same breath do they have him ranked 20th overall?

Look man, not one single rational poster has said that bryce doesnt deserve 2025.  He does and we all hope he makes a mega jump because if he doesnt crack top 10 status we are in a world of hurt and I suspect the team simply moves on.  Most teams know what they have with qbs drafted in the first round by year 4.  There are clear examples up and down the board.  The 5th year option is a game changer.   If they dont exercise it then whats the point, they will move on or try to upgrade.  Sure you can point the Daniel jones experiment but then that proves my point.  Simply put a decision has to be made after year 3 about his long term future.  And for that with the panthers he has to make a huge leap into the top 10.  Thats just how it works man

I think, like with BTT%, you might be interpreting this a bit narrowly.

Bryce is in Tier 4: Young players with a wide range of potential outcomes, and within that group the only QB "above" him is Bo Nix. That tier explicitly frames Bryce as a developing player still on a trajectory... not someone who's reached a plateau. It aligns with how many Panthers fans framed the season leading into 2024: that it would be a redo of Bryce's rookie season after the 2023 dysfunction.

By contrast, Tier 3b, where guys like CJ and Baker are slotted, is labeled Solid starters, but they need more help and spans rankings #12 - #18. For context, Tier 3a includes Goff, Geno, and Purdy. Personally, I'm not sure I'd take those three over CJ... would you?

Which brings me back around to this recurring conversation around the expectation that Bryce must be a top-10 QB to justify his draft status. I'm not pushing back on that idea at all. Year 3 is a big year... we can all agree on that. What I'm asking is: how are we defining top-10? Are we talking PFF grades? EPA/play? BTT%? 3rd down conversion rate? Redzone efficiency?

You've mentioned total passing yards and win-loss record a few times... Are those your primary criteria? I'm genuinely asking, because it's tough to have a grounded conversation when advanced metrics are dismissed as irrelevant while volume stats (which are often more dependent on supporting cast and play calling) are treated as as definitive. If the bar is top-10 QB, then let's define that in consistent, measurable terms... preferably something a little more substantial than just height and weight.

Couple of things to consider with the recent love from PFF:

• Eric Eager, the current Panthers' VP of Football Analytics, is a former writer and data scientist for PFF.
• The team has had seven consecutive losing seasons, so the fanbase is eager for any uplifting news.
• It's the offseason, so football writers are going to be diving into the numbers from last season to create speculative pieces to drive engagement during the offseason.
• Being hesitant to trust stats like BTT% but not TWP% might be less an issue with PFF and more of an issue with something else.

19 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

I think the "Top 10" classification is much more simple than people think, at least for me.

Put every QB in the league into a re-draft of only QB's, does this player go in the Top 10 of that draft or not?

If they do, they're a Top 10 QB, if they don't, they're not.

And yes, things like age/contract would matter in a real QB draft, but in this instance things like that or future injury concern are thrown aside, essentially looking at it on a year to year type of thing as you're talking about a current Top 10 list.

I can't get behind a purely subjective re-draft as a method of defining "top-10 QB" status. That invites bias based on vibes/hypotheticals and can ignore actual on-field performance. You and others have said that Bryce has to be a top-10 QB to justify the pick. That's a high bar, which I'm not against, but we need a clear, consistent way to measure it.

When I bring up metrics that Bryce has registered in the top-10 in like BTT%, P2S ratio, catchable deep ball rate, etc... they're waved off as either irrelevant or the expected baseline performance. Meanwhile, volume stats like passing yards or win-loss records, both of which depend heavily on roster talent, health, and coaching, are treated as definitive.

That's where the inconsistency kicks in. If no performance metric ever counts in his favor and the answer is always going to be "he should be doing that," then we're not evaluating him... we're just holding him to a curve he can't win against.

If this is really about performance standards, then let's define them. But if it's just about confirming prior takes based on height and weight, then let's call it what is it and stop pretending that this is a football analysis discussion.

14 hours ago, frankw said:

I had a huge response typed up for this that I lost entirely so I'm starting from scratch which is annoying but sh*t happens.

I think Purdy is a high end game manager. I've made my thoughts known. I think he is talented and is at his best in the areas of timing rhythm and accuracy. When playing within the structure and scheme of that Shanahan offense and the talent around him he can be really good. Where his limitations become pronounced and more evident is when he has to go toe to toe with dynamic elite QB's. Which obviously isn't a problem just limited to him. But he's been given almost 200 million dollars guaranteed so that's an issue. I think the 49ers will struggle to get back to the mountain top with his new contract looming large and certainly they will face a very steep climb to somehow winning another championship.

As far as Bryce within the pocket there have been numerous discussions here and even video circulated of him bouncing around the pocket like a pogo surveying the field or having both feet off the ground to deliver a pass. It exists even if you or someone else doesn't want it to. And I get why. But it's up to Bryce and Canales to figure out how to not only get his footwork where it needs to be and keep it there but to build a scheme around Bryce and what he does best and fit his limitations into a formidable offense.

Look brother we can get into the weeds about this but I will respectfully say I do not believe you are being consistent here. You have gone out of your way as one of the key voices complaining about how striking the lack of quality talent and coaching was around Bryce Young in 2023. You've also been a key voice who has gone out of your way to sprinkle sunshine and rainbows on just about any discussion around every Panthers player and anything Panthers in general. Which is fine and can be a good thing. It's not for everyone but still more power to you. But it's jarring to see that and then you here now in what I can only describe as downplaying the talent around Bryce when it comes time to shield him from what you perceive to be unfair criticism which others such as myself would argue is not only fair for a first round pick but wholly realistic given the resources we surrendered to be able to draft him. The current FO have made an undisputed effort to build around Bryce given the aforementioned limitations created by the trade. There is never going to be a time where Bryce or any other Panthers QB is going to have elite or all pro level talent across the entire offense. But the FO has put talent around him. If you want to say that this is young and undeveloped talent in some areas that's fine but they are building around him.

I'm going to be honest with you I cannot recall ever hearing this "big time throw" metric being mentioned in past conversations about Panthers QB's. I mean if Bryce or any other QB is making franchise QB or fringe elite QB  level throws we can recognize that with our own eyes. We have seen this from Bryce  which was a relief and very welcomed sight but now it's up to him to prove he can sustain that because in fairness we've seen some pretty impressive passes from past QB's who ultimately didn't pan out who were arguably more phsyically talented than Bryce. 3rd down conversion and turnover worthy plays are certainly something to hone in on. Bryce did improve in the redzone in that final stretch of games. However one key area to keep an eye on will be passing plays to the middle of the field. That's been an issue for us and Bryce both with turnovers and with bad moments from our receivers with bad drops. 

We'll have to see what Dave Canales has planned for all of this within his scheme. I don't expect miracles but I do expect a competent formidable offense that is enjoyable to watch in 2025. That's the minimum expectation and I do not believe it is at all unreasonable.

Just to be clear: I'm not "downplaying" the talent around Bryce... I'm qualifying it. There's a big difference between saying, "we finally have building blocks that we're actually developing" and "we've done enough to say this is a finished product, NO EXCUSES!" It's possible to believe that the 2023 situation was bad and to believe that the current state, while improved, is still incomplete. That's not inconsistency; that's nuance.

As for the footwork stuff, again, I've seen the same clips as others. The claim that Bryce is hopping to see over the line just isn't one I've seen corroborated by analysts or tape breakdown. "Both feet off of the ground to throw" happens a ton for QBs (ex: Mahomes, Rodgers, Purdy, etc.), especially when improvising.

You're right that there were some encouraging flashes from Bryce last season, and it's nice to finally hear that after so much time was spent pretending otherwise. I'm not arguing that Bryce is elite, I'm just asking that we evaluate him using consistent, measurable criteria to determine his status as a top-10 QB... whether it's via 3rd down %, red zone efficiency, turnover-worthy plays, or yes, big-time throws (which, by the way, has been a valid part of QB evaluation across the league for years even if it wasn't used here during Kyle Allen or Teddy Bridgewater's years. For reference: Allen had 20 BTT at a 3.9% rate. Teddy had 17 BTT at 3.3%).

Like you, I'm hoping to see a competent, entertaining offense this season. That's a baseline we can all root for, even if we don't have the same baseline for what makes a QB top-10 (which, to be fair, is what this conversation has been about... though I respect the attempt to reframe it).

3 hours ago, frankw said:

We've literally seen him hop around the pocket to survey the field in multiple occurrences. Defenses have this on tape. Cam and QB's like him built the way he was height and strength wise could get by on those natural gifts in their prime. Bryce Young is unequivocally going to have to go above and beyond with his footwork in order to carve out not just a long career but an elite career worthy of a top overall draft selection. We should be able to wholeheartedly agree with one another on that.

Intermediate sideline throws without placing the ball out of bounds where the receiver has to contort themselves or make an absurd acrobatic catch for it to be a completion. And yes developing a better chemistry in the deep passing game with his receivers to avoid miscues. Both areas will need to see improvement if the young offense is to develop the way we hope in 2025. And we don't necessarily need to be winning mind you. But development of the supporting cast requires this from Bryce.

We have invested a ton of capital in the offensive line. We've invested heavily in WR. We've invested in our backfield. We've invested in TE. We've got a young up and coming offensive minded head coach. The expectation should be for our redzone efficiency to improve significantly. That is not just on Bryce Young. But at the end of the day it will always begin and end with him more often than not. It's always been that way and that's just the nature of the position in this league. And not for nothing but before we drafted Bryce Young nobody was going around here saying we need elite play across the board and top shelf coaching for him to be effective. His biggest selling point was his ability to succeed off script and make something out of nothing. We're certainly going to have to see that come to fruition. Now we wait.

I appreciate the measured tone, truly. Hopefully we're at a point where we can dive a little deeper into the discussion.

The observation about his footwork is fair in theory, but I'd also counter with 6'1" Brock Purdy recently admitting that he can't see his target on 40% of his throws due to the linemen in front of him. He just inked a massive deal, and while a lot of fans are understandably wondering what he's going to do with reduced weapons, "not seeing over the line" just doesn't seem to be that big of a disqualifier with his understanding of timing, leverage, and pre-snap reads (Aaron Rodgers is 6'2"... bet he's dealt with the same). Bryce is likely dealing with similar challenges due to his size, but it clearly doesn't mean it can't be managed at a high level. Also, I'm not convinced that "prototypical footwork" should be the end goal for a QB that isn't built like the prototype. What matters more is timing and rhythm with his receivers... which, as we've both noted, has been evolving as the WR room flips from vet stopgaps to rookies. He will need to improve there. That's not in dispute.

What is in dispute is the impact that footwork is having on his ability to process and execute. The earlier suggestion that he's “hopping around” to see the field implies a frantic or panicked visual search, which just isn’t something we’ve seen reflected in either the film or any reliable breakdown. If it were as exaggerated as described, it would’ve become a meme-worthy moment (or at least been on SportsCenter's Not Top 10). Instead, we've seen a QB who, like many young passers, occasionally loses platform stability under pressure. That is something that's common and correctable, and again, not something that shows up with enough frequency to suggest it's an endemic flaw. It’s worth continuing to track, but to argue it's a defining issue requires stronger proof than anecdote.

As for the "investments" made in the offense after drafting Bryce, I think that might be stretched a bit. Yes, we've used back-to-back firsts on WRs and signed guards to big contracts. But beyond that?

• Mingo (2nd) and Diontae (FA) are gone.
• Zavala (4th) was the worst-rated OL in the league his rookie year
• Sanders (4th) and Evans (5th) are mid-round TEs. Tremble was given a small contract extension but is said here to be at best a blocking TE2.
• Jimmy Horn Jr (6th) and Coker (UDFA) are the other WR investments
• Corbett + BC got one-year deals coming off of injury
• Cade Mays was tendered, but he was cut to start last season

That's not some overwhelming infusion of elite talent. It's better, sure... but acting like it's some embarrassment of riches feels overstated. Expecting instant chemistry and impact from rookies and second-year guys while simultaneously mocking the idea of contending this year also feels a little... off?

So far, what I've heard as your criteria boils down to red zone efficiency and intermediate passing to the sidelines? You mentioned moving the ball inside the 20s... I'd recommend 3rd down conversion rate, big-time throws, and turnover-worthy plays. For red zone play specifically, we could look at turnovers inside the 20. Incompletions in the red zone as well as intermediate sideline incompletions could provide an interesting starting point for film study. Hell, any of these would give us a more objective framework to work from if you're open to using them. Do any of them work for you?

4 minutes ago, frankw said:

His footwork has been discussed many times over related to not just within the pocket but the quality of his drop backs and how while his receivers have been an issue his own footwork has created issues with his receivers. It is a mutual give and take dynamic after all.

As far as his deep passing goes I will happily admit I saw some very impressive long throws from Bryce later in the season and I said so at the time and I'm still saying so now. That doesn't mean that there still aren't issues and beyond some instances of him flat out missing receivers deep that he knows he needs to get corrected I think there are still some throws to the sideline that defenses are going to test Bryce on early and often and until he can prove he can beat defenses on those throws consistently they will play him the same way.

As far as talk of Bryce being top ten and the metrics that define that different people are going to have different answers and I've said before after the conclusion of the 2024 season that I'm going to try to put yardage aside in some cases and just focus on what Bryce is doing both between the 20's moving the ball and how our redzone scoring percentage is looking. The biggest thing I'm looking for this season is scoring points. Not just field goals. Touchdowns. If the offense is moving consistently and reaching the end zone more often than not and not squandering drives and settling for field goals then I am going to be content for the time being. I do not expect miracles this season. I expect development competiveness and both sides of the ball particularly the offensive given the investments we've made trending upward. And no blowout losses. I don't think that's an unreasonable ask do you agree?

🫡

His footwork has been discussed at length, just like Cam's was--no argument from me there. What I'm asking for is a statistical indicator that supports the idea that Bryce's footwork is creating meaningful issues. With Cam, we could clearly correlate occasional high passes to footwork problems. With Bryce, there are occasional misfires as well, but we aren't seeing it surface with the frequency of severity you'd expect if it were such a persistent issue. That's why when concerns about his footwork and height are paired together, there should be some measurable statistical impact. That's what I keep coming back to.

That same inconsistency shows up in the deep ball critique. Saying "he misses guys outright" suggests he either isn't seeing them or can't hit them downfield... yet, as we've already seen, he was top-10 in catchable passes over 20+ yards. If accuracy were truly the issue, it should reflect in the data. It's also worth pointing out that deep-ball concerns largely became the next talking point after he made it through the season without the durability disaster some were predicting (despite being sacked for what was then the second-most times ever for a rookie QB). As for those sideline throws you mentioned: what specific throws are you referring to? If you can identify them, I'd be happy to pull up the PFF premium grades or grab All-22 clips from NFL Pro to look at those sequences and assess how real that concern is. For my part, I'd actually like to see improvement in the intermediate game. That was a strength his rookie year, but he seemed to trade it for a stronger deep game this past season. Could that shift relate to height and footwork? Maybe! But again... we'd need data or film trends to verify that rather than assume it.

On the "top-10" classification front: I know that it's a moving target for most people. That's why I've been asking for specifics. Without a shared definition, it's hard to engage meaningfully. So with you moving away from raw yardage, does that mean your preferred KPIs are now height, weight, red zone efficiency, and point differential? If so, that's totally fine (just being clear about it helps). That said... red zone success and point differential depend heavily on OL play, WR execution, coaching decisions, defense (for point differential), etc. They're influenced by the QB but not exclusively determined by him... which, like passing yards, makes them more difficult to isolate for analysis of Bryce's performance.

3 minutes ago, WUnderhill said:

Bryce Young is far less risky with his body when he runs than Richardson and doesn’t take many unnecessary big hits. Was much more worried about injury when he had that abysmal OL his rookie season than I ever would be when he runs/scrambles. 500/10 seems like a fairly reasonable prediction considering he had 250/6 in 12 starts last season. Of course literally anybody CAN get hurt, it’s just that we were assured by many huddlers that it was a sure thing with Bryce Young that he wouldn’t make it to this point in his career without significant injuries.

It's also worth noting that Cam himself said that he felt safer when running vs. sitting in the pocket because he could see the contact coming and could better prepare for it.

A QB running the ball doesn't have to be a sledgehammer. He just has to be effective.

35 minutes ago, frankw said:

We both know there's more that goes into batted passes than just the height of the QB. Most people here have readily acknowledged this and there were numerous discussions about it before we drafted Young.

But if you are presenting a POV that Bryce's height hasn't tied to issues with his footwork then there's nothing anyone is going to be able to say to sway you and you know this. Even beyond the footwork I recall a redzone play where Bryce couldn't see around his right tackle at all where a receiver was waiting practically alone in the end zone for a touchdown. There are real world circumstances that are going to show up over the course of the upcoming season and it's up to Bryce and Dave Canales to make adjustments and do anything they can to mitigate negative instances and yes that begins with Bryce's footwork again.

Thanks for your time. Have a nice weekend.

Just to clarify: I'm not arguing that height or footwork can't affect QB play. I'm asking how those concerns translate into measurable, consistent outcomes. That’s the standard we should be applying to all QBs, not just Bryce. If height is such a limitation, then we'd expect to see elevated batted passes or poor pressure evasion. Yet none of that shows up in the data. Bryce was one of the lowest in the league for batted passes and his 16.9 pressure-to-sack ratio is good enough for 9th out of all QBs with 300+ dropbacks. So if you believe footwork tied to height is a meaningful issue, what metric shows that because two that would aren't doing so? This isn't about denying flaws. It's about applying fair, consistent standards because otherwise we're not evaluating performance which means that it's not analysis taking place... it's just going off of the vibes that somebody has consciously decided on.

Citing one red zone play you remember doesn't provide that consistent standard. I don't say that to dismiss your memory, but to emphasize that anecdotal evidence (especially from an avowed skeptic) shouldn’t carry more weight than consistent tape or analytics. For example, there was recently dissonance over Bryce's deep ball accuracy where it was implied that he was inaccurate throwing 20+ yards. Yet, the data and film show otherwise.

And I unfortunately have to still ask since you won't directly answer: What specific metrics do you believe matter when evaluating whether a QB is top-10? You've mentioned YPA and passing yards per game, and that's fair. If that's what you're prioritizing, then let's call that your criteria but clarity matters because it prevents moving goalposts when the data doesn't match one's expectations.

I appreciate the response and hope that your holiday weekend goes well also.

42 minutes ago, frankw said:

Are you arguing that his height deficiencies and footwork within the pocket have not been a present issue clearly seen on his game tape particularly in the games he struggled in? Because that's simply denying what everyone in this fanbase who have watched the games have seen.

It's interesting how hardline BY fans here quickly and effortlessly pivot from whailing about being victimized to becoming the aggressor and hurling out allegations of bias and hatred.

And at the end of the day while Bryce Young clearly improved significantly from the first two games of the season the reality of the situation is he still finished 42nd in yards per pass attempt behind Mac Jones and tied with Caleb Williams and 38th in passing yards per game behind the likes of Gardner Minshew Aidan O'Connell Drake Maye and Will Levis. Furthermore it took Bryce Young 23 games to surpass Panthers legend Kyle Allen's 13 games worth of passing yardage in 2019. So if your argument is he became a head and shoulders better passer over the course of the second half of the season the reality is we're still waiting to see that growth this season. And there is nothing controversial or vitriolic about saying so from the mind of a rational observer.

I'm arguing that should those supposed deficiencies, like height or pocket footwork, be as consequential as you and others have claimed, then there would be a clear, observable impact in the data. That's not unreasonable. For example, batted passes are often used as a size-related concern (see: Baker Mayfield), yet Bryce ranked among the lowest in deflections at the line. If his stature is such a limitation, why isn't it showing up there? Or are you suggesting that's why his passing yards fall short of your expectations? If the latter, I would hope that you're not discounting yards left on the field due to drops (of which he led the league in). 

Also, asking for specific, measurable benchmarks isn't aggression... it's accountability. If that feels uncomfortable, it might be worth reflecting on how much of your anti-Bryce argument is grounded in subjective perception rather than objective metrics.

So, again: do you have any specific KPIs beyond total passing yardage, height, and weight that you consider relevant to evaluating whether a QB is top-10? If you want to add YPA and passing yards per game to those metrics, that's fair, just be clear about it. But let's not pretend that asking for clarity is some kind of provocation. I'm simply trying to understand the actual criteria... not just the vibes.

8 minutes ago, frankw said:

I mean as far as his size goes it's all over his tape bouncing up and down on his toes in and around the pocket trying to see the field and defenses know this as well as we do but if folks here want to live in never never land and pretend it's not a thing that's their prerogative. Even our head coach has made it a key focal point to get his footwork under control. But it's still something Bryce is going to be tested on early and often no matter how many keystrokes anyone here commits to the narrative it isn't an issue.

So... what metrics for production do you believe display these issues/limitations best?

Are we only using total passing yards, height, and weight thresholds? If so, then what are those thresholds?

It speaks volumes that when asked to define a clear performance threshold the responses instead fixate on Bryce's size.

It reinforces what’s been clear for a while now... that for some, it has never been nor will it ever be about production. Any struggles will always be chalked up to his frame, and any strong play will be downplayed or disqualified via highly mobile goalposts.

For the Panthers fans still low on Bryce and demanding that he be a top-10 QB this upcoming season:

What stat(s) will you need to see?

Not the vibe you want, but rather what does he need to be top-10 in specifically? Passing yards? Completion percentage? Win-loss record? PFF grades? EPA? CPOE?

Asking because this was asked before and... well... it ended up that the folks down on him didn't care about the numbers as much as they cared that they just couldn't get passed his size regardless of how he performed. It would be nice to get a straight-forward answer to that without the usual deflection and redirecting.

It depends on the plan that Morgan/Canales have. If they're looking to build still, I can see them leaning into the young guys like with what they're doing at WR.

If they're trying to take the training wheels off now and push for the division, then make the trade. I don't think that's the plan though... I think they look at how the team develops over the course of this season and then makes any big time moves based on those results.

10 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

No, some of us will see Humphrey 1 and Frazier 2. We know about Frazier but don’t forget that when C was a huge hole without Kalil, we took TMJ right before Humphrey. Lots of us in here wanted OL, OL and more OL that draft but we liked Erving and Elflein better. Could have had Slater, Humphrey, Smith, Moton and even BC anchoring the OL for years. Could have had Garrett Wilson and $150M for DL as well. It’s truly groundbreaking how bad that Fitterer dude was.

Some of us see Linderbaum and Humphrey...

But at the same time... Mays up there @ #6 as a sixth-round pick surrounded by first- and second- round guys is impressive and likely why they felt comfortable passing on them for other players.

1 hour ago, mrcompletely11 said:

I guess this goes in this thread.  But this is a must listen.  2 dudes from the athletic spend about 20 minutes discussing Young, going over stats and his wrs and key plays.  Very nuanced and unbiased.

In short, his wrs were garbage, he had some big time throws at times, but his mechanics and physical limitations (size, mechanics etc) will perpetually hold him back. 

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/podcast/211-the-athletic-football-show/episode-1169/

Great find! Thanks for the link.

For folks that are hesitant to click, they immediately start with Bryce. It's kind of funny though how much the conversation mirrors the Huddle. One person citing all of Bryce's stats showing improvement and progress, and the other ultimately circling back to, "He's just too small." Especially these two exchanges...

Quote

Robert: "I'm going to call you a hypocrite in this moment. All you want is for guys to be aggressive and to take the big chunks when they're there. I'm going to read you some Bryce Young stats from the second half of last season... Where do you think Bryce Young ranked in air yards per attempt in the back half of last year? He was 3rd. He was behind Anthony Richardson and Lamar Jackson. That's where Bryce Young ranked. Where do you think Bryce Young ranked in the percentage of his throws to the sticks in the back half of last season? 5th. So the only full-time starters in the back half that were ahead of him last year were Lamar Jackson, Anthony Richardson, Justin Herbert, and Sam Darnold. In almost any other packaging, you would appreciate this, but because he's small you're holding it against him."

Derrick: "I mean, it's the height but he's just not that talented of a thrower. I appreciate his willingness to make a lot of these throws... I also think that for as nice as some of those throws were, he got away with a lot of poo last year that I just... It's just one of those things where I would rather see it again because we've seen this before. Case Keenum had a year where he just got away with stuff that he probably shouldn't have gotten away with because he was being aggressive. And I just want to see a little more before I can buy into it."

Robert: "What are we talking about with getting away with stuff though? I don't think he's getting away with anything with those receivers. The amount of throws he got away with I absolutely think that is outshined by far with the amount of throws that were left on the field because of who he was throwing the ball to."

Derrick: "Well if we're just talking about production, sure. But there are just moments where he's trying to make a throw and I'm like... safety is way later there than he should be just like all of this other stuff where I just don't feel like he should have gotten away with that vs. good teams."

Quote

Robert: "I just love that we've now realized the limitations of your sizism and how it relates to QBs because so many things about how he plays... He had the highest percentage of tight window throws in the league in the second half of last year. Only two QBs threw a lower percentage of their passes behind the LOS during the second half of last season: those QBs are Joe Flacco and Jameis Winston. This is a man who is trying to play the position an honourable way and you just refuse to acknowledge it."

Derrick: "He's trying his hardest but there are still certain... you gotta be this tall to ride meters that you gotta hit."

To be fair, Derrick does provide more pointed criticisms like the lack of the screen game in Carolina, his issues with Bryce's timing in the short game, etc. A lot of it though seemed to ultimately circle back to, "too small."

I guess in the end, that's what it boils down to. There's going to be fans that are eager to see Bryce perform well and look at different indicators of performance to track that potential development. Then there's going to be fans that, while they might no longer believe that Bryce can't be an NFL starter, they still believe that his size is going to prevent him from ever being a top-10 QB (which could potentially make the trade for him "worth it").

Most we can do is sit and wait.
 

19 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I think we have to eventually get serious about getting a real center. None of those guys mentioned are legit top 15-20 NFL centers. Mays is a BC-esque backup, where is value is maximum. Corbett is really an OG playing out of position and we know BC is a utility depth piece. We have a ton of roster needs over the next 2-3 offseasons/drafts but we should finally get a Day 1-2 center drafted, IMO.

OT's are as you say, we could be set there or we could be heading towards a reset. TBD.

I just hope we don't lose our focus on keeping the trenches strong. On BOTH sides of the ball, for that matter.

I am concerned that with our constant changing of coaches and GM/FO guys that will get fuged up.

Eh... the film and the stats don't really backup the backup allegations: top-10 pass-blocking grade, top-25 run-blocking grade, top-20 overall grade.

He's got potential and was really starting to put things together at the end of the season. Him and Hunt offset each others' weaknesses fairly well imo. Mays is the better pass-blocker while Hunt the better run-blocker.

Even so, the team needs to do their due diligence on the center position imo. Corbett can't be seen as anything more than a one year rental barring a sudden turnaround this season when it comes to his availability. Prospects that I've got my eyes on for 2026:

• Jake Slaughter (Florida)
• Iapani Laloulu (Oregon)
• Parker Brailsford (Alabama)
• Logan Jones (Iowa)
• Connor Tollison (Missouri)
• Connor Lew (Auburn)

Sounds like he wasn't picked up and is now on the Panthers' IR.

THE DREAM STILL LIVES

There are a lot of question marks surrounding TMo right now. There were whispers leading into the draft that the team was ready to move on due to a knee issue, but they came away with no real backup plan outside of BC. Maybe the knee isn't as serious as feared… or maybe it was just front office gamesmanship, like we saw with the Jalon Walker rumors. With Icky's second contract on the horizon, the team's probably hoping Moton is open to a team-friendly extension. His consistency over the years has been incredibly underappreciated.

Hunt's grades dipped last season--particularly in pass pro, where he ranked 54th among guards with 500+ pass-blocking snaps. That's not ideal, but when you step back, it's still starting-caliber play. In the run game, he was more effective--posting the 14th-highest run-blocking grade among guards with 300+ run-blocking snaps. DLew, meanwhile, was a warrior. He played through a shoulder injury all season and still ranked 17th in pass-blocking + 10th in run-blocking under those same filters. Context matters here too... in terms of 2024 cap hits, Hunt was the 17th-highest paid guard at $6.45M while DLew was 25th at $4.9M. DLew absolutely outplayed the first year of his deal. Looking ahead, Hunt will carry the #3 highest cap hit among guards in 2025 at $21.65M, while DLew will be #10 at $14.57M. If DLew maintains that level of play and Hunt bounces back in pass pro? Oooh wee mayne.

That said, decisions are coming. DLew can be cut in 2026 for $9M in savings, or in 2027 for $13M. Hunt is more locked in: his contract opens up flexibility starting in 2027 ($14.3M savings) and jumps to $18M in 2028. And then there's the biggest unresolved piece: center. Cade Mays looked solid when called upon, and Christensen didn't look out of place either. Corbett's durability is a fair concern... he hasn't been able to stay on the field the past two years.

If Mays locks down the center job, I think the front office moves quickly to secure RT next. Once the bookends are in place, the interior OL becomes the next long-term focus. Hopefully, they're already developing some of those answers internally.

2 hours ago, CRA said:

Given that vid/stat is only clean pockets with no pressure?  I would assume the other throws.  BY overall on target % was bad. 

So... deep throws under pressure?

There's 18 of those, total--six targeting Legette of which four were incomplete.

• @ PHI was the drop with less than a minute to play.
• @ DAL was on a broken play where Bryce avoided a sack but XL came down OOB due to DaRon Bland pushing him out
• @ TB the first incompletion is debatable in terms of catchability, but it looks to me like XL lost it in the sun for a split second as it came down.
• @ TB again was a bit of an underthrow with a helmet in Bryce's chest. DB was able to cleanly swipe it away for the pass deflection

So out of all of those plays, there's two that fit the original criteria set... maybe three if we want to blame Bryce for Bland pushing XL OOB.

But let's widen scope to be for all incomplete passes, not just those targeting XL. Seven plays fit those parameters. We have already covered four which leaves us with just these three:

• Overthrow to Coker vs. NO
• Drop by David Moore in the endzone vs. KC
• Overthrow to JT vs PHI while scrambling, but it looks like JT was supposed to keep going because he ended up in the same place as XL

That leaves us with a total of, at max (after putting on anti-Bryce shades): 5 out of 18 deep passes that were uncatchable. That means that under pressure Bryce was even better than he was with a clean pocket, throwing a catchable ball on 72% of his throws over 20+ yards.