Icege

Aaand this confirms the core disconnect. You view tanking as a guaranteed payoff with no organizational risk, even under a GM you didn't trust. That's not strategic thinking... that's revisionist certainty. "No risk when you're that bad" is also a wild take when the team under Wilks rallied and was almost able to steal a playoff spot in a weak NFC South. That wasn't nothing... it was proof that the locker room still had fight.

Looking Back at the 2021 Panthers Draft Class An NFL player's career on average is said to last just slightly over three years, and because of that, it's considered a general rule of thumb that by Year 3, a team knows what kind of professional football player a pick has developed into. While there are always exceptions to the rule, that's not the point of this topic. This is about the players who are still on the team after being picked up in the 2021 draft (or as UDFAs). Only four remain on the roster today: Jaycee Horn, Chuba Hubbard, Tommy Tremble, and Brady Christensen. Two of them signed significant contract extensions with the team (Horn, Hubbard) while the other two (Tremble, Christensen) received short-term deals that aren't cap-heavy. It's worth mentioning the conditions these guys entered the league under Matt Rhule's second year and Scott Fitterer's first. A ton of players were brought in that year, including a long snapper who didn't make the team… instead of Trey Smith, who just happens to be the Chiefs' starting guard (hey... to be fair to Thomas Fletcher, he did have a fun draft day phone call). These four survived Rhule and Reich and were seen as valuable enough under the first-year combo of Morgan and Canales to be rewarded with second deals. Jaycee Horn (Round 1, Pick 8.) Horn has all of the traits of a true CB1: elite footwork, physicality, and the ability to mirror WR1s... but his biggest challenge has been staying on the field. He's never finished an entire season, though to be fair, it's been rumored he wouldn’t have been shut down for the final two weeks of last season had the team been in playoff contention. He's got just 37 career games played over four seasons (with 15 of those coming in Morgan/Canales' Year 1). The team gambled on his production after seeing that not only can he lock down WR1s in man or match quarters, but he can also be dependable in a heavy cover-3 zone scheme like what the Panthers ran last season. With the recent free agent and draft additions made this offseason, expect Jaycee to go back to eliminating WR1s from the game rather than shutting down a third of the field like he was recently asked to do. Chuba Hubbard (Round 4, Pick 126) Originally seen as a depth pick with linear speed, Hubbard has outperformed expectations and emerged as the team's RB1 over the past couple of years. His 2023 breakout laid the foundation, but in 2024 he cemented his role as the lead back, showing much-improved vision, contact balance, and decisiveness in outside zone. He finished top-10 in missed tackles forced and yards after contact per attempt, all while holding his own in pass protection and producing on screens. Chuba doesn't have elite burst or wiggle, but he's carved out a spot as the leader and tone-setter in the run game. Not bad value for a Day 3 selection—positional value be damned. Tommy Tremble (Round 3, Pick 83) Tremble has been the kind of player every team needs but few talk about: dependable, physical, and quietly versatile. When he was drafted, he was already known for his blocking chops and has steadily improved as a receiver. He experienced his most complete season in 2024 with a 79.3% catch rate, 10.2 yards per reception, no drops, and a 108.9 passer rating when targeted. Not only that, he's been a consistent special teamer since coming into the league. He's a natural fit as a TE/FB hybrid in 12 and 13 personnel, consistently handling the dirty work in both run and pass situations. Brady Christensen (Round 3, Pick 70) BC has played all over the line both as a starter and as a back-up. We haven't seen the "short arms" come up as often as Rhule was worried about, especially against ATL and WAS where he logged over 100 snaps at center and posted his best grades of the year (76.0 OVR, 73.8 PBL, 75.8 RBLK vs. ATL; 85.2 OVR, 72.9 PBLK, 86.0 RBLK vs. WAS). While his overall pass-blocking grade (56.1) and lack of a consistent position might mean that he's the perfect OL6 rather than a long-term starter, he's been dependable when given his opportunities.

I need Trevin Wallace retelling the Takeo Spikes story about Weapon X

Do we just get to have the player without any salary cap implications? Do they have to be a current player? Give me Brian Dawkins and just let him bless people.

Just finished the doc and it's pretty good. Nothing revealing other than getting a look into TMac's personality and his support circle. Looks like he's surrounded himself with some good friends that have his back and are genuinely happy for him in his success. Cool to see.

4.28 vs. 4.31 Funny enough... I can see the Ted Ginn Jr comp. Hands aren't the best but has great speed... except XL is almost 50lbs bigger than Ginn was. That's a whole lot of him to be moving that fast.

And that right there is the disconnect. It’s not that you’re being misunderstood... it’s that you’re refusing to consider any perspective but your own. That kind of zero-sum absolutism doesn’t lead to learning nor understanding. It just creates dissonance and a distorted sense of certainty.

Yea, there's a good amount of players there but fortunately it's not a lot of expensive players that are going to demand a premium to be replaced outside of TMo. A punter, two ST LBs, a LS, three back-up OL, and a starting center are all players that can be replaced with day three picks which will allow the team to commit the premium picks to premium positions. fwiw I hope that they invest in a franchise center next season if they decide Mays isn't the guy.

Base for run downs: Scourton-Brown-Brown III-Robinson-Wonnum Base for passing downs: Scourton-Brown-Jackson-Wharton-Umanmielen I can dig it...

Most analysts from what I've seen are projecting next year's cap as closer to $298M but as high as in the low 300s. We saw a $24M increase this season, $31M increase last season, and $16M prior to that. There's also the inevitable cap casualties... A'Shawn Robinson being cut saves the team $8.5M. Damien Lewis would save $9M. BB3, Jewell, PJ2 all would save $5M each. Tremble and Mike Jackson could save $4M each. It wouldn't surprise me to see the team make a few moves that end up giving them closer to $50M in cap space to start 2026. I'm less worried about next year's cap space due to the upcoming UFAs for the team: TMo, AT, Tuttle, Wonnum, Nijman, Mays, Corbett, BC, Dowdle, Rozeboom, Martin, Rhattigan, Jansen, Scott... the only FAs I'm seeing on Spotrac outside of TMo that are must keeps are ERFAs Coker + Demani (so long as TMo's knee is fine, of course). 2027 on the other hand is going to be the offseason for Bryce's bonus option with Icky being the most significant UFA. PJ2, A'Shawn, Josey, MJackson, Tremble, Dalton, DJ Johnson, Zavala, and Bartholomew are the only other current FAs then. I'm of the opinion that they are all in on next season and if it doesn't go well, it's being blown up and starting from scratch. They're currently estimated to have $130M in free cap space in 2027.

Sure, there's definitely a chance that a fire sale in 2022 could've paid off but I don't think that's a certainty. It's not just about stockpiling the picks and bettering odds; it's about hitting on those picks, having a stable coaching staff to develop them, and keeping the locker room engaged. We didn't exactly have a model front office nor stable coaching staff in 2022. It's worth noting that part of the reason that DJ had to be included in the trade up for #1 was because the Bears needed an immediate, proven WR1 to help Fields. It was him or another immediate first-round pick, not a future one like what was being offered for Burns (whom teams knew that things were shaky with and that they could afford to wait). As for the Eagles, they recovered because the foundation was already in place. Pederson got flak and was ultimately fired (and was just fired again this offseason from the Jags). Their recovery was quick because the foundation was already in place: Howie Roseman and a solid roster (that included a stacked OL, a second year QB, and a veteran defense). Philly had a margin of error that just wasn't available to Carolina. I'm not against using the draft to rebuild, but a full-on teardown comes with real consequences: fan disengagement, a fractured locker room, poor development, a losing environment... and I don't believe that we had the necessary leadership at the time to cleanly navigate it. That's a gamble that I want no part of. Now that we do have a staff that seems to be in complete alignment and building for the future rather than fighting for their jobs, I'm more inclined to observe their process and see where it leads rather than backseat driving with "perfect" hindsight.

I don’t think the issue here is that your perspective isn’t being understood. It’s clear imo - you’re suggesting that the front office should intentionally weaken the roster by offloading talent in exchange for future assets. If I'm misreading that, then disregard the rest because then that puts the disconnect on my side of the court. But I believe the actual disconnect comes from the way it is being presented... as if tanking is always the optimal path forward. That framing overlooks very real consequences: financial losses from a disengaged fanbase, damage to team culture (say what you want about "culture-building" wins, but this team looks more united than it has since the Super Bowl run), and the difficulty in attracting/retaining talent when players don’t believe they’ll get a fair shot to compete during their already-limited careers. Not every organization is in a position to go full teardown and when they gamble on the future at the expense of the present, they risk more than draft position... they risk credibility.

I'm impressed with the way Tillis is structuring the books. The team is currently spending more on non-premium positions like iOL and S, but that’s because they’ve got rookie deals locked in at several key premium spots: QB: Bryce Young LT: Ikem Ekwonu EDGE: Nic Scourton, Princely Umanmielen WR: Tetairoa McMillan, Xavier Legette, Jalen Coker The only veterans at those premium positions on second contracts are Taylor Moton, Adam Thielen, and the recently extended Jaycee Horn. Given that setup, it makes sense to allocate bigger dollars toward non-premium roles - especially if those pieces support the development and success of the younger core. Investing in iOL helps our young QB. Strengthening the DL helps both of our young EDGE guys and our high-paid CB. I can see the vision. Fingers crossed that it works!

This is incredible lmfaoooooooooo

My head is spinning from a lifetime of, "If you see somebody jump off of a bridge does that mean you should do it too?" to the current, "I'M ABOUT TO SWANTON BOMB A VEHICLE ON THE INTERSTATE BELOW, LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE FOR EARLY ACCESS TO MY NEW MEMECOIN!"

Omgomg

Tony Pauline says he's fine. Take that as you will.

I am JUICED to see these young guys get on the field and figure things out over the course of the season. I know that things are being slow-played and that 2026 - 2027 is the "show up or shut up" season for this iteration of the team, but it's difficult for me not to be excited about how they might trend.

Ironic that out of all of the multiple players listed, you zeroed in on Bryce Young and only Bryce Young. No mention of Derrick Brown or Jaycee Horn... Hell, we can even add Icky to the mix but sure... let's laser-focus on Bryce. That's a hell of a mirror for you to run into. I'm not sure what "wisdom" you think you're imparting to the front office beyond the idea that the being Panthers means that they're destined to suck forever. That doesn't exactly sound like wisdom as much as it sounds like the same relentless doompilling you've been committed to. But sure, let's pretend it's "rational" to condemn a pick after limited rookie action and an injury setback (and that anything less than full-blown pessimism is bootlicking). That's certainly the lighthouse we all need in the storm that you insist is eternal... at least until you and only you, decide it's not. Unlike you, I'm not asking anyone to leave. I'll just keep showing up with facts and context. You're more than welcome to keep showing up with doom and gloom.

I like his pairing with Jewell for the upcoming season. Josey can play close to the line + blitz while Wallace can drop back into coverage and cover space with his speed. I can see Evero looking to send Wallace on the blitz in the second half after establishing him as a coverage guy to the opposing offense.

Considering you previously struggled to understand BTT despite it being explained in a video, write-up, and multiple replies, I get why this might be a little too complex for you. Happy to clarify again! Just let me know which part tripped you up this time.

Kind of like folks that double, triple, and quadruple down on hating Bryce Young being the Panthers' QB? This hindsight fantasy that the team was locked in on Zach Frazier and passed on a "guaranteed" franchise center is, at best, revisionist; at worst, it's the same tired fatalism we've seen directed at Derrick Brown, Jaycee Horn, Bryce Young... and now Jonathon Brooks. It's wild watching Panthers fans trip over themselves to dismiss any pick that doesn’t line up with their emotional forecasting, no matter the context, logic, or timeline.

Thanks @CarolinaLivin! Didn't have as much free time as I wanted to follow the rookie camp at all so this thread has been a godsend.

Damn, that sucks for Derek. I always liked him as a person, especially after he hopped on the Huddle just to be proud of his older brother. Hope his next chapter goes smoothly for him.

Don't forget the young TEs, Coker, Etienne, and Jimmy Horn Jr! I'm amped to see how the team develops over the course of this upcoming season.