Icege

On 6/24/2025 at 3:48 PM, WUnderhill said:

I haven’t listened, but based on who is posting this you just know it’s gonna be scratching his anti-Bryce itch. Can’t wait for the season.

Seeing as how big brother Bryce hater immediately slid in to wax poetic about "waiting and seeing" (after spending the entire offseason doing the opposite), I've got a feeling we’ll be hearing the same old gospel soon:

• Tampa is the clear division favorite
• Bryce has size limitations
• And of course: "They gave up too much for him, so he must throw for 300+ every game or it wasn’t worth it"

I've developed a bit more of an exotic palate than some, though--so while some might fear the taste of crow, I've grown rather fond of it over the years. Hopefully I'll be having a nibble after listening, but I've got a feeling they'll have more salt in their diet than I will crow...

On 6/21/2025 at 8:24 AM, mrcompletely11 said:

Weren't they inevitably correct?   Odd take on trying to dunk on someone?

Considering how you and a few others were saying that the team needs to move on from Bryce in 2025, that he isn't good throwing deep, and has no chance of being a quality NFL QB... I'd say inevitably incorrect.

Funny how some of the loudest voices now "cautioning optimism" were the same ones spending all last offseason trying to smother any hope or support...

The offseason is when we're allowed to hope and dream!

Though I can understand fans lacking in emotional resiliency wanting to be hesitant to hope instead of mope.

Finally getting a chance today to sit down and watch this and per the usual... That Franchise Guy continues to be one of the few content creators out there that isn't Panthers-centric but is still clearly pays attention to the team.

About to wrap up the coaching & scheme section, and I appreciate how he points out that Evero was legitimately having to trot out practice squad guys as starters. I knew it had been tough on the defense last season after Derrick Brown and Shaq Thompson went down, but man... it took seeing the total snap percentages at the end of the season to realize just what the team was working with...

• 2024 DL: A'Shawn Robinson, Shy Tuttle, LaBryan Ray, Charles Harris, DeShawn Williams, Nick Thurman
  
  vs.
   
• 2025 DL: Derrick Brown, Bobby Brown III, Tershawn Wharton, A'Shawn Robinson, Cam Jackson, LaBryan Ray/Jaden Crumedy/Shy Tuttle (pick one)

4 hours ago, WUnderhill said:

But wasn’t that the same thing with Fuller? And he was terrible. I feel like we have brought in a lot of guys because of Evero’s familiarity with them and it hasn’t helped at all. Idk why Evero gets such a pass. The Saints scored on every.single.drive week 1 when we were still healthy and had Brown. The Broncos defense got better after he left. When will he stop getting a pass for “not having players” and start getting hammered for not developing players or getting the best out of the players he has?

While it's fair to question how impactful a player's relationship with a coach is (especially if someone has questions regarding said coach), it's important to also evaluate the difference between the players here. Jordan Fuller was pick #199 in the 6th round while Justin Simmons was #98 in the 3rd round. Jordan Fuller might have gotten a Super Bowl ring while he was with the Rams, but he got it while on the IR. Justin Simmons, on the other hand, is a x2 Pro-Bowler (2020, 2023), x4 second-team All-Pro (2019, 2021 - 2023), and was the NFL co-leader in INTs (2022). Simmons has also fallen off in the last couple of seasons though, grade-wise. He very well might not be that same player, which could be why the Falcons have elected to replace him with Fuller.

As far as getting the best out of what he has, asking him to produce with a starting DL of A'Shawn Robinson (63.56% of the defense's snaps), LaBryan Ray (51.48%), and Shy Tuttle (50.08%) isn't reasonable. Wonnum only played in 8 games, but had the second most % of snaps (37.27%) at EDGE behind Clowney (53.53%). The second-string DL based on snap % was... and don't read this if you just ate... Charles Harris (34.48%), DeShawn Williams (27.67%), and Nick Thurman (19.7%). The second-string EDGEs based on snap count would be DJ Johnson (32.27%) and Cam Gill (18.14%).

With the investments made in the run defense this season though, especially on the defensive line, it's more than fair to demand a complete turn around from last season.

Couldn't be happier for Shaq. Gets to go to a familiar system with familiar faces in McDermott + Rasul Douglas after a tough injury late in his career.

Wish that the team could've brought him back for one more season, but Wallace's emergence made that a lot harder.

Curious to see how Evero adjusts his scheme given the shallow CB room.

Does he stick with rotating from two-high to single-high looks more than any DC in the league again, leaning heavily on Cover-3?

Or does he shift back toward more Cover-4 with the occasional LB blitz mixed in?

Only three months until we find out…

Highlights start @ 0:43

Fun seeing TMac and XL joking around. Excited to see how the young WR room (and AT) develop this upcoming season.

Oh, ok.

Carry on.

Woo boy... Them hit dogs started a-HOLLERIN'

Ppl that were butthurt over a week of Netflix are going through it this week. Bryce in GQ and XL in a music video? Ooh wee mayne.

Was really interesting hearing him talk about how the Chiefs spent 3yrs building around Pat as if he were the guy. That was something we really saw the team lean into last offseason as well as this one.

Looking back on the 2023 QB class and the Panthers absolutely made the right choice jumping up to #1. Only Bryce and CJ have showed any promise.

Whether or not they chose the right one of the two, we'll have to "wait and see."

It's beautiful.

Hoping that whoever the team ends up starting at RT + C in the 2026 season are monsters on rookie deals.

I cannot wait to use this as a react for the next 6 months

13 hours ago, CRA said:

To an extent that’s a little bit  what you see with the pass O.  Our WRs sucked per PFF.  League worst..  Bryce was super inaccurate and off target with his throws.  League worst.  We also didn’t generate a lot of production in general.  BUT…..if you just cherry pick a small amount of deep throws late in the year…..it was awesome. 

I still think we are striving to get to average O and average D.   

This is incredibly dishonest, and you know it.

We didn't cherry-pick a "small amount of deep throws late in the year." We reviewed every one of Bryce's deep throws using the NFL's own film and data via NFL Pro. The analysis was thorough, transparent, and contextualized with game film. Dismissing that as cherry-picking is not only incredibly disingenuous, it is textbook gaslighting as well.

Let's walk through the actual data:

• Top-10 in deep ball accuracy
• Top-5 in short-range accuracy
• Bottom-10 in intermediate accuracy (not ideal, but not "league worst" either)

If you're going to lean on the "no pressure" qualifier again, his deep passing under pressure was covered. So no... it wasn't cherry-picked. Look, you don't have to believe in Bryce. That's your right... but misrepresenting clear, consistent evidence crosses the line from skepticism into willful intellectual dishonesty.

49 minutes ago, ECHornet said:

He signed a two year deal in March of 2025…

https://www.panthers.com/news/panthers-agree-to-terms-with-tommy-tremble-tight-end-free-agent

Oh damn, my bad. Could've sworn it was a 3yr deal last offseason.

Looking at the details now and it might effectively be just 1yr looking at the numbers for 2026. Team saves $6M and just accrues a little over $2M dead cap. Costs less than $4M going into this season.

Got a feeling that we are gonna see a lot of Sanders/Evans when they put 2 TEs out there to see if they can move on from Tremble.

Glad to see them playing it cautious. I wonder if this was due to the hit he took against the Bears that knocked him out. He was out for two games in the concussion protocol, came back for the Broncos but was listed  questionable due to back, then missed two more games before returning to finish the season.

He was also extended before last season started, so well before the injury ever occurred let alone when surgery needed to be discussed.

1 hour ago, CarolinaLivin said:

Question. Outside of Joe Person, Sheena Quick, Mike Kaye, David Newton... Who else are good twitter/x accounts to follow for Panthers reporting/content? 

DM sent

3 hours ago, mrcompletely11 said:

If those stats you are quoting are from PFF then why in the same breath do they have him ranked 20th overall?

Look man, not one single rational poster has said that bryce doesnt deserve 2025.  He does and we all hope he makes a mega jump because if he doesnt crack top 10 status we are in a world of hurt and I suspect the team simply moves on.  Most teams know what they have with qbs drafted in the first round by year 4.  There are clear examples up and down the board.  The 5th year option is a game changer.   If they dont exercise it then whats the point, they will move on or try to upgrade.  Sure you can point the Daniel jones experiment but then that proves my point.  Simply put a decision has to be made after year 3 about his long term future.  And for that with the panthers he has to make a huge leap into the top 10.  Thats just how it works man

I think, like with BTT%, you might be interpreting this a bit narrowly.

Bryce is in Tier 4: Young players with a wide range of potential outcomes, and within that group the only QB "above" him is Bo Nix. That tier explicitly frames Bryce as a developing player still on a trajectory... not someone who's reached a plateau. It aligns with how many Panthers fans framed the season leading into 2024: that it would be a redo of Bryce's rookie season after the 2023 dysfunction.

By contrast, Tier 3b, where guys like CJ and Baker are slotted, is labeled Solid starters, but they need more help and spans rankings #12 - #18. For context, Tier 3a includes Goff, Geno, and Purdy. Personally, I'm not sure I'd take those three over CJ... would you?

Which brings me back around to this recurring conversation around the expectation that Bryce must be a top-10 QB to justify his draft status. I'm not pushing back on that idea at all. Year 3 is a big year... we can all agree on that. What I'm asking is: how are we defining top-10? Are we talking PFF grades? EPA/play? BTT%? 3rd down conversion rate? Redzone efficiency?

You've mentioned total passing yards and win-loss record a few times... Are those your primary criteria? I'm genuinely asking, because it's tough to have a grounded conversation when advanced metrics are dismissed as irrelevant while volume stats (which are often more dependent on supporting cast and play calling) are treated as as definitive. If the bar is top-10 QB, then let's define that in consistent, measurable terms... preferably something a little more substantial than just height and weight.

Couple of things to consider with the recent love from PFF:

• Eric Eager, the current Panthers' VP of Football Analytics, is a former writer and data scientist for PFF.
• The team has had seven consecutive losing seasons, so the fanbase is eager for any uplifting news.
• It's the offseason, so football writers are going to be diving into the numbers from last season to create speculative pieces to drive engagement during the offseason.
• Being hesitant to trust stats like BTT% but not TWP% might be less an issue with PFF and more of an issue with something else.

19 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

I think the "Top 10" classification is much more simple than people think, at least for me.

Put every QB in the league into a re-draft of only QB's, does this player go in the Top 10 of that draft or not?

If they do, they're a Top 10 QB, if they don't, they're not.

And yes, things like age/contract would matter in a real QB draft, but in this instance things like that or future injury concern are thrown aside, essentially looking at it on a year to year type of thing as you're talking about a current Top 10 list.

I can't get behind a purely subjective re-draft as a method of defining "top-10 QB" status. That invites bias based on vibes/hypotheticals and can ignore actual on-field performance. You and others have said that Bryce has to be a top-10 QB to justify the pick. That's a high bar, which I'm not against, but we need a clear, consistent way to measure it.

When I bring up metrics that Bryce has registered in the top-10 in like BTT%, P2S ratio, catchable deep ball rate, etc... they're waved off as either irrelevant or the expected baseline performance. Meanwhile, volume stats like passing yards or win-loss records, both of which depend heavily on roster talent, health, and coaching, are treated as definitive.

That's where the inconsistency kicks in. If no performance metric ever counts in his favor and the answer is always going to be "he should be doing that," then we're not evaluating him... we're just holding him to a curve he can't win against.

If this is really about performance standards, then let's define them. But if it's just about confirming prior takes based on height and weight, then let's call it what is it and stop pretending that this is a football analysis discussion.

14 hours ago, frankw said:

I had a huge response typed up for this that I lost entirely so I'm starting from scratch which is annoying but sh*t happens.

I think Purdy is a high end game manager. I've made my thoughts known. I think he is talented and is at his best in the areas of timing rhythm and accuracy. When playing within the structure and scheme of that Shanahan offense and the talent around him he can be really good. Where his limitations become pronounced and more evident is when he has to go toe to toe with dynamic elite QB's. Which obviously isn't a problem just limited to him. But he's been given almost 200 million dollars guaranteed so that's an issue. I think the 49ers will struggle to get back to the mountain top with his new contract looming large and certainly they will face a very steep climb to somehow winning another championship.

As far as Bryce within the pocket there have been numerous discussions here and even video circulated of him bouncing around the pocket like a pogo surveying the field or having both feet off the ground to deliver a pass. It exists even if you or someone else doesn't want it to. And I get why. But it's up to Bryce and Canales to figure out how to not only get his footwork where it needs to be and keep it there but to build a scheme around Bryce and what he does best and fit his limitations into a formidable offense.

Look brother we can get into the weeds about this but I will respectfully say I do not believe you are being consistent here. You have gone out of your way as one of the key voices complaining about how striking the lack of quality talent and coaching was around Bryce Young in 2023. You've also been a key voice who has gone out of your way to sprinkle sunshine and rainbows on just about any discussion around every Panthers player and anything Panthers in general. Which is fine and can be a good thing. It's not for everyone but still more power to you. But it's jarring to see that and then you here now in what I can only describe as downplaying the talent around Bryce when it comes time to shield him from what you perceive to be unfair criticism which others such as myself would argue is not only fair for a first round pick but wholly realistic given the resources we surrendered to be able to draft him. The current FO have made an undisputed effort to build around Bryce given the aforementioned limitations created by the trade. There is never going to be a time where Bryce or any other Panthers QB is going to have elite or all pro level talent across the entire offense. But the FO has put talent around him. If you want to say that this is young and undeveloped talent in some areas that's fine but they are building around him.

I'm going to be honest with you I cannot recall ever hearing this "big time throw" metric being mentioned in past conversations about Panthers QB's. I mean if Bryce or any other QB is making franchise QB or fringe elite QB  level throws we can recognize that with our own eyes. We have seen this from Bryce  which was a relief and very welcomed sight but now it's up to him to prove he can sustain that because in fairness we've seen some pretty impressive passes from past QB's who ultimately didn't pan out who were arguably more phsyically talented than Bryce. 3rd down conversion and turnover worthy plays are certainly something to hone in on. Bryce did improve in the redzone in that final stretch of games. However one key area to keep an eye on will be passing plays to the middle of the field. That's been an issue for us and Bryce both with turnovers and with bad moments from our receivers with bad drops. 

We'll have to see what Dave Canales has planned for all of this within his scheme. I don't expect miracles but I do expect a competent formidable offense that is enjoyable to watch in 2025. That's the minimum expectation and I do not believe it is at all unreasonable.

Just to be clear: I'm not "downplaying" the talent around Bryce... I'm qualifying it. There's a big difference between saying, "we finally have building blocks that we're actually developing" and "we've done enough to say this is a finished product, NO EXCUSES!" It's possible to believe that the 2023 situation was bad and to believe that the current state, while improved, is still incomplete. That's not inconsistency; that's nuance.

As for the footwork stuff, again, I've seen the same clips as others. The claim that Bryce is hopping to see over the line just isn't one I've seen corroborated by analysts or tape breakdown. "Both feet off of the ground to throw" happens a ton for QBs (ex: Mahomes, Rodgers, Purdy, etc.), especially when improvising.

You're right that there were some encouraging flashes from Bryce last season, and it's nice to finally hear that after so much time was spent pretending otherwise. I'm not arguing that Bryce is elite, I'm just asking that we evaluate him using consistent, measurable criteria to determine his status as a top-10 QB... whether it's via 3rd down %, red zone efficiency, turnover-worthy plays, or yes, big-time throws (which, by the way, has been a valid part of QB evaluation across the league for years even if it wasn't used here during Kyle Allen or Teddy Bridgewater's years. For reference: Allen had 20 BTT at a 3.9% rate. Teddy had 17 BTT at 3.3%).

Like you, I'm hoping to see a competent, entertaining offense this season. That's a baseline we can all root for, even if we don't have the same baseline for what makes a QB top-10 (which, to be fair, is what this conversation has been about... though I respect the attempt to reframe it).