panthers55

Of course I have watched Nelson but not to the same level,I have watched Hardy extensively so unlike many here I don't just watch highlight reels or select plays or games and assume that I have enough expertise to make a judgement or comparison about every player. Notice I have not said that Nelson is not as good or denigrated him. I simply said you are underating Hardy and he would be a better value than Ogholor in my opinion given what is being reported about both by those in the media who do claim expert status. I pointed out that your opinion of Nelson is not universally held so it is not a given or something that is not open to debate. I respect your opinion but believe it is just that, your non expert opinion which is no more valid than any other opinion here. I wish more people would stop acting as if they are some kind of expert when they have had little or no formal training by an expert and only think they know what they are talking about. Some of us acknowledge we are fans and offer no expert status.

Obviously different sites have different analyses but much of you say about Agholar is not universally shared. The NFL draft site has him running a 4.42 while Hardy ran a 4.54. I don't want to hear that you can tell the difference which is less than the blink of an eye. Plus they noted his game speed is slower than his timed speed and he is an average blocker without top deep speed to blow by corners. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/nelson-agholor?id=2552600 You can find sites which question Hardy's straight line speed and out of his break quickness . Yet his 3 cone drill results were top among all receivers. Agholor did not compete in the cone or shuttle due to injury. Even Hardy's shuttle time was decent at 4.21 while the top one among receivers in the combine was 4.06. And he was definitely not just a workout warrior. Honestly if we can get Hardy in the 3rd or 4th he is a much better value than Agholar in the second IMO. And while I claim no expertise in watching Agholar, I have watched Hardy extensively over his career.

I think your evaluation of Hardy while complementary suggests that he had issues with separation and quick route running. I think your film must also have shown that Hardy played with an incredibly porous offensive line and a quarterback who was inconsistent in his accuracy. Hardy rarely had time for many deep rotes and often was used working back to the ball when Carden was on the move. He was often used for a quick hitter or on third and 10 was the underneath guy who could run well after the catch. So his role was to find open areas and be the go to guy where Carden could throw it to an area and Hardy would go up or down to snag the ball and move the chains. You also should have noted how aggressive he is when blocking for a running back or another receiver. I am sure Nelson is a great receiver as well just noting that Hardy would be a good fit for what we do particularly given our line issues and inconsistent offense. He is a clutch performer who can make plays when everyone knows where the ball is going to go.

Strong is an athletic wide receiver who needs to learn better fundamentals. He does have great size and speed. Qualities you can't coach that much. Struggles with concentration. Where have we heard this before. He is the type of receiver we would love to have in the second if we go a different direction in the first than receiver. The problem is whether you are looking for a guy with a high ceiling who needs work or you want a guy with a higher floor but potentially a lower ceiling. If there is a run on wide receivers in the first I could see guys like Strong move up particularly with teams who can draft a guy and let him develop instead of being thrust into a starting role.

We are doing a good job of due diligence and looking at a bunch of guys we like and hope are going to be there at our picks. I think with Davis's not yet signed to a contract that anything is in play. I just wouldn't do it. But then again I am no expert.

DGB is a great physical specimen but the knock is he is lazy and undisciplined. Characteristics which are deadly in the NFL. Everyone has talent. The difference are the guys who are talented and have the intangibles as well. There are plenty of those guys available so that we don't have to take a chance on a guy who has issues.

He is a very interesting prospect but not as a first rounder if guys like Perriman or Strong are there as well. As you work into the second or third he becomes more intriguing. The problem for me is that Cam's style really plays better to large taller receivers with big catch radiuses. One of the problems with Smitty was difficullty getting him the ball particularly deep. I like him as a slot receiver, the only question is could we find someone almost as fast and with the same good hands further down in the draft or is he the BPA in the second or third. And do we draft him or lets say a DE or RB at that position.

It is hard to say what Gettleman seems to value the most. Common thought he loves his hog mollies but given we passed on OT last year and brought in Martin and Oher, the thought may be that we need to shore up other positions such as a RB, or WR or even a DE over a tackle that likely would not start right away. Compare that to a WR for example who might come in and play right away depending on who we pick. Or a guy like Gurley who could compete for stating time day one. I dont agree that Martin or Oher are Honda Civics. They are actually guys who started in the league and were good. Oher had injuries and Martin had the unfortune to be stuck on a Miami team with a crazy and undisciplined locker room. I think folks are going to be upset again when we skip over drafting a tackle in the first round and go elsewhere. Obviously it depends on who is available and who is taken at other positions. But there is no magic in the first round as to who will be a boom or bust compared to the second or third other than most times you hold on to the first rounder longer increasing the chance they stick simply because they were a first rounder. I want us to draft guys in the first 2 rounds that make an immediate impact rather than serve as depth for 2 years and then start.

I can get behind the idea of drafting a tackle or two and agree that as long as everyone understands they will be a project and we need vets with starting experience in the meantime we are in agreement. With that said I would draft a tackle in the third or fourth round given that there are very guys in the third who are not big drop offs from those available at 25. I don't think Oher or Martin will be as bad as Bell and believe that one or both will do a very good job for us. I am not resigned to bad play at this point. FWIW any player available in free agency is someone that another team either didn't want or didn't think they were worth paying what they wanted. I think Martin will thrive in this environment and am optimistic for Oher as well.

And why do you think that a draft pick even in the first round will magically fix our O line at left tackle. For that matter 2 rookies. I would think that by now folks have figured that linemen rarely come in and perform adequately in their rookie season. Look at Matthews in Atlanta who was selected 6th in the draft which is long way from 25. He was supposed to come in and fix their line. Instead he struggled mightily. Frankly you better hope Remmers and Oher and Martin can come in and start right away because they are going to be better than any rookie we are bringing in,

Obviously no one knows the future and injuries can turn things around in a hurry but both Martin and Orr have played left tackle at a high level and have been successful. I think that between the two of them they will get the job done. I have faith in our coaches to get the most out of our players. Look what Matsko did with Remmers and Norwell. Seems to me that he surely can do a good job with guys with starting experience in the NFL. So yeah as fixed as you can be in April.

Barring injuries I think the o line has been fixed. So I think that whoever runs the ball will have more success this year. As for drafting one high, I am with those posters that says it really depends on who is available when we pick. If a running back is truly the BPA and we can't approximate that pick somewhere down the line, then draft him. But dont draft someone for need at this point. With running backs being devalued and with so many still available in free agency, it would be stupid to draft one high unless he was a real game changer. Edit: autocorrect sucks sometimes.

I am excited Martin is here. With our locker room and with Rivera's support there is every reason to believe that Martin can return to his former level. What a no-brainer. Who gets a potential left or right starting NFL tackle off waivers unless there were issues. I don't think that football has to include bullying and intimidation. Particularly from your own guys. I hope he can contribute and fit in. A win- win for everyone. What is there not to like?

Sure you have to use something but the passer rating is really only one comprehensive stat but not always the best one. It uses elements such as touchdowns without accounting for the difference between teams that historically run in the redzone for example versus those who always throw the ball and dont have a power running game. Yet the quarterback that throws it to score will have a higher passer rating. As I noted earlier if one quarterback throws 15 screens, 2 dumpoff passes and 2 long passes versus another one that throws the whole route tree irrespective of system and personnel, which one will have a much higher completion percentage? I can understand using it for a list to get relative ranking but when comparing 2 quarterbacks or comparing Cam to others it seems rather lazy to rely on a stat that admittedly has significant flaws and doesnt account for the new wave of more athletic quarterbacks who can run as well as pass. And honestly that is a big part of his game.

On and on. One question? How fair is it to compare even contemporaries on passing ratings when they operate in different systems. Are we really going to compare completion rates for a QB in a short passing WCO where many throws are 5 yard dumpoffs to backs in the flat or simply slants and crossing patterns with a quarterback running a vertical passing attack emphasizing the deep ball and intermediate to long out routes for example.

I agree that I DG needs to sign Cam long term and pay him what he deserves. The guy the year before Cam was drafted made a ton more than Cam did and has done half as much. We really did get him for cheap which is why taking him was a no brainer. He was a tremendous athlete who wanted to learn and get better who was playing in a simple system. You aren't investing 100 million on.a guy who might be a beast or a bust, you are investing 22 and this year 14 more. A great return on your investment for five years of hard work by a quarterback who has had to carry the team on his back at times. There aren't 32 franchise quarterbacks in the league or everyone would have one. Cam is one and is only scratching his potential which make a continued investment in Newton mandatory. I think that anyone who disagrees and doesn't covet our guy must think that elite quarterbacks are a dime a dozen. As a panther fan who has experienced guys like Peete, Weinke, Carr, and Clausen, I was overjoyed when we drafted Cam who was the most physically gifted quarterback in our franchise history. And I am still optimistic given last year he showed his toughness and grit regardless of our record or his individual stats. He was not only a leader but he never quit and showed up healthy or hurt. You can coach heart and he showed that in spades.

You obviously have no clue about me or how I feel or you would know that I am very optimistic about this year like I am every off-season. I like the upgrades and am confident that the offense will be much improved. I think Cam will have a breakout season because unlike folks who make excuses for him, he actually doesn't. He will take what Rivera said to heart and work diligently to improve and justify the confidence that the team has in him and the huge amount of money they are going to invest in him. I can just see things from more than one perspective and dont see things in extremes as you obviously do.

I think that the line was pretty good in 2013 and struggled mightily in 2014. Nothing more or less. I have watched every game since 1995 with the exception of 2 so I think I know of what I speak. But no need to debate about ancient history, Like you said, he needs to improve and we need to upgrade the o line and his receivers. Hopefully we have already done that to some extent already and will continue in the draft. Because really all that matters is 2015 not rehashing old news.

Cherry pick much? So If I find 2 plays where they do fine, then do I win?? This is pretty weak even for you.

I love people who criticize others for personal attacks and equate that to losing and then do the same thing 3 sentences later. First of all fanboy is hardly a personal attack and your avatar and attitude show you came to this boy due to Cam which is what a fan boy is. Secondly if you make a personal attack which is more negative than you receive, does that make you the biggest loser?

PFF disagrees. We were top 10 in run and pass blocking. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/01/13/2013-offensive-line-rankings/4/

That might float if he didn't have a pretty good Oline in 2013 and he was still inconsistent. No one denies that the Oline doesn't need upgrading but this wasn't just a 2014 issue but something that has been an issue for his whole career. He would be the first to admit that what Rivera said was true. Why blame all the issues on 2014. If this was a 1 year issue I doubt Rivera would have made an issue of it.

He gets criticism outside of the huddle that is true. But here every comment is vehemently attacked by all of his fan boys like you. If people could acknowledge what I am sure he would be the first to admit, then there wouldn't be this back and forth so much.

I forgot that many folks here don't understand basic football terms and need it spelled out for them. I will keep,that in mind in the future, So if he still is inconsistent when he is absolutely healthy at the end of the year then how much did the injuries and ankle surgery affect his mechanics earlier. Simple logic dictates that he acted the same healthy or not then that was not a major factor in his mechanics. Now talking about his mobility is another issue altogether.

Cam is already a good pocket passer at long as he stays patient and stays fundamentally sound. Of course the line had something to do with the pressure that he felt to the point he often felt phantom pressure and took off too soon. But that isn't an excuse for him not to continue to work on his fundamentals and keep evolving into the complete quarterback that we know he can .