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Keenan Allen Pro Day Tommorow.


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#301 C47

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:32 PM

you can judge off tape,or project how fast a prospect may run. it is a projection, that is why a lot of time people say he should run well or he is a 4.5 guy before a individual runs a 40. how many times have a prospect came out, and ran a faster 40 then people expected. but then when you watch him in the game, he doesnt play now where near that speed. or vice versa, people thought Kendall Wright was a burner but he ran a 4.61 what the combine. look at him on tape, he plays at 4.4 speed.


Exactly, just look at Ryan Swope for example....



Tell me where he looks like a sub 4.3 guy.....

#302 TANTRIC-NINJA

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:01 PM

Being able to tell if one runs a 4.5 or 4.7 is irellevant. The difference between a 4.4 WR and 4.7 wr with similar abilities is usually pretty apparent when you watch a game. When you watch a fast guy like Austin you think 4.4ish type speed as you would with Patterson or Ace Sanders(4.5-4.6actual) Combine just confirms he is what I see.

In watching Allen play he has to push off at the college level to gain seperation or catches. check out the vaunted Standford secondary in the highlights a few pages back.

I think what huddlers are falling in love with is that Allen has the prototype size and body control you want in a WR but I have trouble distinguishing what makes him different from a LaFell, Nanee(much better hands of course)or Hixon type WR.

We have a bunch or WRs that can run around a hope for a blown coverage. But to stress and threaten the seams of a defense on every play we do not.

In 2011 defenses learned to bracket Smitty while our other Wrs failed to seperate consistantly in a WR friendly-rules league.

In 2012 Louis Murphy and Lafell were having trouble gaining seperation while Smitty was covered.

Allen has the same issues that SC's Alshon Jefferyhad last season despite pulling a 4.4 at his pro day without an injury.

#303 koolkatluke

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:12 PM

Being able to tell if one runs a 4.5 or 4.7 is irellevant. The difference between a 4.4 WR and 4.7 wr with similar abilities is usually pretty apparent when you watch a game. When you watch a fast guy like Austin you think 4.4ish type speed as you would with Patterson or Ace Sanders(4.5-4.6actual) Combine just confirms he is what I see.

In watching Allen play he has to push off at the college level to gain seperation or catches. check out the vaunted Standford secondary in the highlights a few pages back.

I think what huddlers are falling in love with is that Allen has the prototype size and body control you want in a WR but I have trouble distinguishing what makes him different from a LaFell, Nanee(much better hands of course)or Hixon type WR.

We have a bunch or WRs that can run around a hope for a blown coverage. But to stress and threaten the seams of a defense on every play we do not.

In 2011 defenses learned to bracket Smitty while our other Wrs failed to seperate consistantly in a WR friendly-rules league.

In 2012 Louis Murphy and Lafell were having trouble gaining seperation while Smitty was covered.

Allen has the same issues that SC's Alshon Jefferyhad last season despite pulling a 4.4 at his pro day without an injury.


Again you keep making these statements about WR's not getting separation with little to no proof to back it up.

#304 panthers55

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:16 PM

not sure why people hold certain positions to a higher standard than others. if he isn't a julio jones or aj green then you shouldn't draft him at 14. unless he's a sure thing WR prospect then you stay away...but at 14 there are no sure thing WRs. someone their caliber wouldn't last that long so pretty much no WR should ever be drafted around that spot. it's ridiculous. it's like saying that no DT should be drafted at 14 unless they are suh-like. you could go on and on.

the truth is, if you don't like the idea of a certain pick at a position or you just have another one or direction in mind, you're going to put all kinds of unrealistic expectations on the position that you wouldn't for the one(s) you want that year. people did the same thing with QB when we were talking about cam, talking about how far back you could set the team if you picked the wrong one and how you should only go with the low risk sure thing, esp. with the #1 pick and that they should be the most established and pro-ready blah blah blah...

point is, we all have inconsistencies and we are all guilty of the double standard when advocating for or against certain players or positions. people arguing for WR will use the same arguments for it that others will for DTs or whatever and the justifications and urgency for the pick will be very similar.


just an observation.

You might put unreasonable expectations on a position, I don't think I am. If you draft a guy at 14 and you have 5 picks you have to hit on your first and second rounder, particularly if you have little wiggle room in free agency and are cap strapped. So if that is the case then you pick first rounders at positions of need who are going to start or contribute day 1 not a few years down the road. We don't have the luxury we did with Davis to draft a guy at 14 and develop him for a few years. We need a starter or impact guy. And there are those guys in the draft this year. Fluker at right tackle would be a plug and play guy right away. We move Bell inside and offensive line is solved right away. We find a NT in the draft and the defensive line is solved right away. We get a starting caliber corner or safety that can start we solve the secondary right away. Truth is that one of the positions where we don't need an immediate starter and can go with what we have is receiver. And is it unreasonable to pick a guy who is healthy instead of a maybe who is no better than 4 or 5 guys out there who is healthy?? I don't think so. Just an observation....................

#305 SmashNDash

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:18 PM

Again you keep making these statements about WR's not getting separation with little to no proof to back it up.



Go watch the Raiders game, it's the best example of no one being able to get open. It's a damn shame too because Murphy is a 4.4 guy, he just can't catch or run routes. Lafell always feels faster to me after the catch then he does in his routes, and if you watch the majority of his catches are drags accross zone coverages, his disappears when we play teams that run a lot of Man Defense(like the Raiders do).

#306 koolkatluke

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:27 PM

Go watch the Raiders game, it's the best example of no one being able to get open. It's a damn shame too because Murphy is a 4.4 guy, he just can't catch or run routes. Lafell always feels faster to me after the catch then he does in his routes, and if you watch the majority of his catches are drags accross zone coverages, his disappears when we play teams that run a lot of Man Defense(like the Raiders do).


I did watch that game and i notice more that the Oline couldn't Block. WR not getting separation wasn't near the problem as the Oline in that game.

#307 SmashNDash

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:37 PM

I did watch that game and i notice more that the Oline couldn't Block. WR not getting separation wasn't near the problem as the Oline in that game.


That was also not our true starting O-Line, who knows who was at center and guard that game. Bottom line is if they are blitzing heavily, you need to start using screens and 3 stop drop patterns, and if your WR can't get any separation on a slant, or doesn't scare a DB enough to be able to run a curl or comeback, then you have problems.

Also note, while you may not have seen separation as being as big of a problem that game, go look at the Raiders IR last year. They were decimated at DB, and Michael Huff was playing corner they were so desperate. This wasn't them struggling to get open against Revis, Sherman, or any starter, these were the 3rd and 4th string corners and safety for THE RAIDERS.

#308 rayzor

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:46 PM

You might put unreasonable expectations on a position, I don't think I am. If you draft a guy at 14 and you have 5 picks you have to hit on your first and second rounder, particularly if you have little wiggle room in free agency and are cap strapped. So if that is the case then you pick first rounders at positions of need who are going to start or contribute day 1 not a few years down the road. We don't have the luxury we did with Davis to draft a guy at 14 and develop him for a few years. We need a starter or impact guy. And there are those guys in the draft this year. Fluker at right tackle would be a plug and play guy right away. We move Bell inside and offensive line is solved right away. We find a NT in the draft and the defensive line is solved right away. We get a starting caliber corner or safety that can start we solve the secondary right away. Truth is that one of the positions where we don't need an immediate starter and can go with what we have is receiver. And is it unreasonable to pick a guy who is healthy instead of a maybe who is no better than 4 or 5 guys out there who is healthy?? I don't think so. Just an observation....................

i've got no problem with wanting a guy to be healthy.

i just keep reading people say that we shouldn't draft so and so WR at 14 because they aren't at julio jones/aj green/megatron elite status. and it's not just that, i see it with other positions. it's unrealistic to expect that. it's ok to draft a WR at 14 that isn't at that elite, ready to start day one, level just like it's ok to draft any player at 14 that isn't elite because chances are, if they were elite they wouldn't have lasted that long.

people dog harder on that when it's a position that they just really don't want us to draft.

this draft has very few elite players in it. not that every draft is overflowing with elite talent, but this draft is one that you are going to have to settle for not-quite-elite at 14 or whatever, but that doesn't take away that there's talent there.

i think it would be great to draft a plug and play starter, but i don't want us to be limited to just areas that we need starters, despite my campaigning for WR in one of the first couple rounds. i agree about those other positions, but i think WR is right up there on the priority list and isn't much of a drop in the level of talent compared to the other positions, if there is any drop at all (which i don't think there is).

i also think that an added WR in the first or second (or even third if we can pick one up) can have just as much of an impact as those other positions. the WR corps needs help, not just now, but in getting ready for life after smitty.

#309 koolkatluke

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:04 PM

That was also not our true starting O-Line, who knows who was at center and guard that game. Bottom line is if they are blitzing heavily, you need to start using screens and 3 stop drop patterns, and if your WR can't get any separation on a slant, or doesn't scare a DB enough to be able to run a curl or comeback, then you have problems.

Also note, while you may not have seen separation as being as big of a problem that game, go look at the Raiders IR last year. They were decimated at DB, and Michael Huff was playing corner they were so desperate. This wasn't them struggling to get open against Revis, Sherman, or any starter, these were the 3rd and 4th string corners and safety for THE RAIDERS.


1. So what if it wasn't our true Oline. The point was who ever was out there couldn't block. Making your whole thing about Wr's not getting separation in that game un- judgeable. Cam never had time to find WR's. Even on his TD pass he was on the run.

2. And if your whole point is the WR couldn't get open in that one game. Then look at the 2nd Falcon game. We can all agree that the Falcons have 1 of the top Wr corps. What happen to them in the 1st half o that game when they were going against our patch work secondary? My point is it can happen to any Wr group. You can't try to make a final judgement on them not getting separation off of 1game.
Another example the Giants got shut out by the Falcons and they have a great WR corp. Does that mean that Cruz and Nicks never get separation because of that one game.

#310 koolkatluke

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:15 PM

i've got no problem with wanting a guy to be healthy.

i just keep reading people say that we shouldn't draft so and so WR at 14 because they aren't at julio jones/aj green/megatron elite status. and it's not just that, i see it with other positions. it's unrealistic to expect that. it's ok to draft a WR at 14 that isn't at that elite, ready to start day one, level just like it's ok to draft any player at 14 that isn't elite because chances are, if they were elite they wouldn't have lasted that long.

people dog harder on that when it's a position that they just really don't want us to draft.

this draft has very few elite players in it. not that every draft is overflowing with elite talent, but this draft is one that you are going to have to settle for not-quite-elite at 14 or whatever, but that doesn't take away that there's talent there.

i think it would be great to draft a plug and play starter, but i don't want us to be limited to just areas that we need starters, despite my campaigning for WR in one of the first couple rounds. i agree about those other positions, but i think WR is right up there on the priority list and isn't much of a drop in the level of talent compared to the other positions, if there is any drop at all (which i don't think there is).

i also think that an added WR in the first or second (or even third if we can pick one up) can have just as much of an impact as those other positions. the WR corps needs help, not just now, but in getting ready for life after smitty.



You could be missing the point here. Some are arguing the no elite WR point in stressing the need for a starter. No matter the position in the first 2 picks. In some people's opinion there isn't a WR in this draft that is a sure fire guy that day 1 challenges Lafell and Smith for the starting job. So if you have doubts if this guy can give you instant impact from day one. Why draft him instead of a position that can?

#311 rayzor

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

i think there's plenty of guys who can challenge lafell for the starting gig...at least 5, but even at that, the third WR is pretty much a starting gig because of the amount of playtime they'd be getting...which would be significant just due to the talent that would be available in that player.

my point is that WR just shouldn't and wont be ruled outright because of needs at other positions and players already at that position. WR is more than likely going to be among the first couple picks so all this back and forth is pretty pointless. I'm just saying to be ready for it.

#312 koolkatluke

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 03:42 PM

i think there's plenty of guys who can challenge lafell for the starting gig...at least 5, but even at that, the third WR is pretty much a starting gig because of the amount of playtime they'd be getting...which would be significant just due to the talent that would be available in that player.

my point is that WR just shouldn't and wont be ruled outright because of needs at other positions and players already at that position. WR is more than likely going to be among the first couple picks so all this back and forth is pretty pointless. I'm just saying to be ready for it.


1. The fact that there is doubt that they can beat out Lafell is a red flag for me. And if there isn't doubt in your mind about that then your close minded and not doing your research.

2. We don't know the type of offense we are going to be running this season. But if you look at Shula history and the money invested at the RB position. You can get a idea that we won't be running a GB, NO, and NE type of offense where you throw the ball 65% to 70% of the time. So where is the value in a 3rd Wr when you run the ball just as much as you pass? Not to mention you have a pro bowl type TE that will get his touches as well. Plain and simple if you can tell me that you honestly believe we will be using 3 wr sets 60% of the time then I will agree WR is the way to go.

3. I think they will pick a WR this year. We are just debating how good of a move it will be.
You don't have to agree with every move your favorite team makes. Lord knows I didn't agree with everything Hurney did.

#313 rayzor

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 04:11 PM

the problem is drafting for need vs. drafting for talent. if you limit your choices to just a couple areas that you think need more help or need a better starter, then you are likely missing out on serious talent.

it's obvious they are looking at several positions, esp. WR and the fact that they are looking at guys predominantly slated to go in the first couple rounds tells you 1) that they consider it a top priority 2) that they feel confident that they would be intended for a starting gig and 3) either they aren't impressed with lafell as a #2 or they feel that they would be up for the #1 gig when smitty goes or 3) they think it's incredibly important to upgrade the WR corps as a whole. they could just be wanting to get that WR that cam could grow with in the offense.

true, we don't have to like what the FO does. i lived through years of fox/hurney that frustrated me constantly.

about us not knowing what kind of offense they are wanting to run with shula...i think we know that the intention will be to utilize the WRs more and have more talent overall there. anyone thinking that this will be an offense heavily slanted towards the run game is just as likely wrong as those who think it will be heavily slanted towards the passing game. the goal is to be balanced and dynamic and to elevate the talent level at WR to at least the talent level at RB. at least that's what I'm seeing.

#314 iamhubby1

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:08 PM

Hey, I realize half the fun of speculating on the draft is debating your hopes. But we all have to agree that BPA at 14 is probably going to start. Taking that into account. Do you still want a WR? Personally, I say yes. Some of these kids will be making plays next year. Why not for us?

#315 CPF4LIFE

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

1. The fact that there is doubt that they can beat out Lafell is a red flag for me. And if there isn't doubt in your mind about that then your close minded and not doing your research.

2. We don't know the type of offense we are going to be running this season. But if you look at Shula history and the money invested at the RB position. You can get a idea that we won't be running a GB, NO, and NE type of offense where you throw the ball 65% to 70% of the time. So where is the value in a 3rd Wr when you run the ball just as much as you pass? Not to mention you have a pro bowl type TE that will get his touches as well. Plain and simple if you can tell me that you honestly believe we will be using 3 wr sets 60% of the time then I will agree WR is the way to go.

3. I think they will pick a WR this year. We are just debating how good of a move it will be.
You don't have to agree with every move your favorite team makes. Lord knows I didn't agree with everything Hurney did.



Sorry, but you are the only one that thinks that.


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