tukafan21

The problem is that the QB's who need to sit because they have to develop, they have to develop mentally. Bryce doesn't have that problem, he already sees the game like a vet, he just frankly doesn't have the physical traits needed to execute yet on this level. Can he get there? Maybe, but it's not something that he'll develop by mid-season his rookie year, it's going to take years for him to work on building his body up the right way and increasing that body and arm strength. So sitting him to start the year wasn't going to do anything, might as well toss him out there, his mental side of the game was always going to have to carry him over his physical. I think one of two things happen, either Bryce proves me wrong and he develops significantly over this year and the next couple and we' re-sign him. Or I'm proven right and he's just not an NFL QB and thus we end up putting ourselves into the Arch Manning sweepstakes in the 2026 draft (which while it would suck for the next few years, could turn us into a contender for a long time).

Not that the rest of the post was bad so I deleted it, but you had this in there at the end, and it was the most important part of it all. I think too many of the Bryce supporters are struggling to understand that the people upset right now, are upset about this. It's never going to be "did Bryce end up as a good player" as much as "did Bryce end up a good enough player to justify what we gave up, knowing we'd likely have ended up with one of the top QB's in next year's draft anyways." What we gave up to take a player with Bryce's limitations and risks was WAY WAY WAY too much and it significantly hurts our ability to build out around Bryce. Had we just had he #1 pick and took him (or the 2nd or 3rd pick and took one of the other guys) and we sucked this year, nobody would be as concerned as we'd be looking at it knowing we'd have a high pick next year to try and get an elite WR with (not to mention still having DJ, last year's second and the 2025 second). Bryce literally has to win us a SB for the trade to be considered a success, especially if there ends up being a couple great QB's in next years class. If we gifted the Bears one of those QB's with our pick and that QB ends up better than Bryce, only a SB ring will make that remotely acceptable. So basically we bet on Bryce being the biggest outlier in NFL history at the QB position because of his brain, not his physical ability... seems.... dumb.

Needing to sit Bryce the first half of the season would have made that trade so much worse than it already is. He was always supposed to be the most pro ready of any of the QB's this year, if you make that trade and take him, only to need to sit him at the start of the year, then it would be proof that he was the wrong player to take and you shouldn't have given all that up for him. I didn't want to make the trade up to 1 due to the cost, I didn't want to take Bryce once we made the trade, I tried to get my hopes up once we did take him and be optimistic about his "super brain" but his physical attributes have been so much worse than I ever expected. I'm not going to stop rooting for the Panthers, I'm not going to root against the kid, but I unfortunately have no optimism left at this point as I feel like this was all predictable. He's an elite QB brain in an average high school QB's body, that's not a good fit in the NFL. We let past screw ups at the QB position force us to make a bad trade because we thought we HAD to do it, but it would have just been smarter to use this season to build a good base with this new staff and then use our first rounder next year on a better QB prospect while keeping DJ and the rest of the picks.

They don’t count because I’m not talking about comparing it to smaller trade ups, I’m talking about the massive ones. You can’t compare this trade to ones that aren’t similar. If we only had to give up Moore to move up, or only had to give up next years first, then yes, they’d be comparisons to look at, but we gave up WAY more than that. If you expect 2nd rounders to be starters (which you should), then we basically gave up 5 starters to take a QB with limited physical attributes. With one of those assets likely being a Top 5 pick next year, you can’t compare giving up a Top 5 pick (on top of all the other significant assets) that next year to KC giving up a late first or Buffalo giving up 2 seconds. This was always why I didn’t want to trade up to #1, the cost was too high for the available prospects. I always was much more interested in trading up to #3 to take AR and likely have been able to keep Moore and maybe even one of the 2nds.

Mahomes doesn’t count, trading a future 1st that would be in the high 20’s to move from 27 to 10 is nowhere in the same category as giving up a future first, two 2nds, and Moore to move from 9 to 1. And again, that one is different as they already had a contending roster built out, their biggest/only hole was an elite QB, they weren’t giving up the picks they needed to re-stock their roster with young talent. And Allen doesn’t really count either, they gave up two 2nds to move from 12 to 7, again, compensation nowhere remotely close to what we gave up. Watson is another one where they gave up one future first to move from 25 to 12, hell, that’s no haul, that’s a steal to move up that much for only 1 future first. My point wasn’t about trading up never working out, it’s when you give up substantial player/draft assets to do it that it doesn’t work out. The massive trade ups I to the Top 3-5 to draft a QB just don’t work out, you lose too much young talent/picks in the process and continue to struggle.

Again, another person who can't separate the trade from the player. I personally don't think the kid has it, I never did and it's why I didn't want to draft him. But I'm also still not writing him off. My point with all of it is that we gave up entirely too much to move up for a player who is anything but a sure thing. The trade was bad, the player could still end up being good, but it doesn't mean we made a smart trade and there is a big difference between the two.

This is a fallacy that only fans believe can work out because they're so starved for a QB. Again, I can't think of a successful massive trade up for a QB in recent memory, it NEVER works out for the team trading up. Again, 19 teams in the league are starting QB's they drafted outside the Top 10 or acquired through other means than the draft. And those who drafted players in the Top 10 used their own picks to do it, not traded away their franchise's future to draft the QB there. Honestly, what is the most successful trade ups for a QB in the draft that you can think of, not counting Mahomes as they only traded 1 future first rounder to move way up the draft (27 to 10) and did that when they already had a contending roster built out and didn't have numerous holes already. Closest would be what, the Redskins trading up for RG3 and it working for 1 season?

Actually it's not, I was calling for us to trade him last Saturday night once it was clear there wasn't going to be a deal done before the game. I've never been a fan of having him play out the year because I think he's putting up 15+ sacks and will end up costing us more than Bosa at that point. I was yelling all off season to just pay him and get it done, but once we couldn't, I think the best thing for the franchise's future is to get a couple firsts for him and open up that cap space. What I've seen from them these two weeks only makes me feel stronger about the need to move him in what would essentially be a 4 for 1 of potential impact players, two firsts and splitting that $30-35 in cap space on 2 other starters. I mentioned it in another thread, I wouldn't hate the idea of trying to trade him to the Lions for Jameson Williams, their 1st and maybe a future 2nd or 3rd. They just lost a pass rusher as well as Gardner-Johnson, adding someone like Burns to rush opposite Hutchinson would help both the pass rush and back end. Now not sure the Lions would do that since they're going to have to pay Hutch in 2 years too, but I'd be open to a deal like that as well if one is out there.

This team has shown nothing that gives any indication that we will be even remotely in the playoff chase this year (yes, I'm very confident in saying that after the preseason and 2 weeks where we've looked like hot garbage). We have far too many holes to fill and don't have the draft picks to work on filling them and will lose a large chunk of the cap room we have to re-sign guys like Burns and maybe Brown next year. The earlier in the season that we put him on the market, the more teams who think they have a chance to make a run this year to get involved in the bidding and help drive the price up on what we could get for him. I want Burns on this team, but what we'd get back for him plus the extra cap room with not signing him are more beneficial to this franchise right now with where we currently stand.

Was just looking at the list of NFL teams and it occurred to me, we are the only team in the NFL right now who has a starting QB that the team traded a massive haul to move up in the draft to get them. And it's not like those trades haven't been made in the last 10-15 years, those QBs just didn't work out. The Chiefs traded a 3rd and a future 1st to move up from 27 to 10 to take Mahomes, but not sure that counts as a haul and they did that when they already had a contending team fully built out. The massive trades to move up to take a QB just don't end up usually working out. Half because if there was a QB available in the draft that was THAT good, most teams would take them and trade/cut whoever they already had, like the Colts did with Luck/Manning or the Cardinals want to do with Williams/Kyler. And before people say "but we didn't have a QB, what do you want us to do, sit around and not make the move to get one?" Well, 19 of 31 teams (not counting the Cardinals right now as they would be starting Kyler) in this league are currently starting QB's that they either drafted outside the Top 10 or acquired through a trade or free agency. Those teams are also a combined 24-14 so far this year, so not like they're struggling.

The Bears have their own and our first round pick The Cardinals have their own and the Texans first round pick. There is a legitimate possibility that the Bears and Cardinals combine for picks 1-4 in some order. Odds are one would turn it into Williams and Harrison while the other would get the QB of their choice and then probably a haul for the other one to another QB needy team.

Unless whatever they did helped free up some cap room over the next couple of years, I'm actually surprised Mahomes wanted to do this. He's one of the few players who make ungodly amounts of money in endorsement deals, just figured he'd have been fine taking a little less than the absolute max that he could, so he could have some more players around him. Guys like Burrow, Hurts, Herbert, Lamar... while they all do well in endorsements, I'd bet good money that Mahomes dwarfs them with his. He also strikes me as the guy who wants the legacy and to beat Brady's numbers. Sacrificing 5-10 million a year when you're already making 40+ before endorsements seemed like something he'd do. Yea, just looked it up, in 2023 Mahomes will make $20 million in endorsements, only others above Burrow at $4 million are Dak, Wilson, and Rodgers at 13, 13, and 11 respectively.

Really? Nico Collins, Robert Woods, and Tank Dell are better skill players than Chark, Thielen, and Mingo? No, just no, give me some of whatever you're smoking, cause that poo's the bomb. I'd have said maybe Pierce or Shultz over Sanders or Hurst, but Pierce and Shultz haven't done anything yet this year. We have a significantly better line (they were missing 4 starters on their line yesterday) and better skill players, not to mention the "all star" offensive staff while Stroud's HC is a defensive minded guy. This isn't even me arguing for Stroud over Young, it's solely about everything else around the QB's, we're much better in that regard than the Texans, no question about it.

No chance Burns plays on the tag next year, not after he almost ended up sitting out this year. If we tag him, we'll either come to a long term deal or trade him. Hence back to my OP, at this point with where the team appears to be, we have too many holes to pay him what it's going to end up taking to keep him around given the alternative being 2 firsts and $30-35 million more in cap room. And to your point about getting injured, that's why I said I'd put him on the block and inactivate him each week until a trade is made, to not risk injury and hurt ourselves. Put him on the market, teams will come calling.

No he's not, just the last "well known" player. Mr JJ Jansen has been around since before Cam was even at Auburn lol

He'll never coach in the NFL His style and how he is able to motivate players would never work in this league, it works with kids in college, and there is nothing wrong with that. He's unique and he's going to end up being an elite college coach for as long as he wants to do it.

You do know what the franchise tag is, right? There is a less than 0% chance the Panthers let him walk in free agency and not tag him. Which also is why we'll get 2 firsts, as if we tag him, that's what we'd get for someone else to sign him, which they 100% would do assuming we didn't trade him first.

Sunk cost You can't continue to make the wrong decision just because of a past decision that went wrong. You have to make the best move from here on out. And people thinking we won't get a big trade like that are nuts, he's a 25 year old pass rusher that regardless of what the fans on here think about him or his limitations, the league views as an elite pass rusher. Someone will give up multiple firsts, or a first and a combination of 2nd or other quality players, something like that would be offered for him, no question about it.

It's cost vs risk, not about the player himself We gave up FAR too much of a cost given the risks associated with Bryce. Do you realize how few QB's there have been in the history of the NFL who have been good enough to win without other elite talent around them? Maybe a dozen or so over the history of the NFL By giving up CMC, Moore, 2 Firsts and a Second to get Young and DJ Johnson, while simultaneously not having the first round pick the season after Bryce's rookie year, we basically bet on him to become one of those Top 12-15 QBs in the history of the NFL. All on someone who possesses no elite physical traits for the QB position and betting on their mental acumen to overcome those odds. And yes, next year's first rounder is massive, even if you don't look at it as a different QB we could have taken. People point to players like Burrow and Peyton and say, see, a bad rookie year isn't the worst as they usually are great from then on, well..... The Bengals were horrible in Burrow's rookie year, but they were so bad that it got them Chase with the draft pick because of it. The Colts were terrible in Peyton's rookie year, but they were so bad that it got them Edgerrin James with the draft pick because of it. So no, Bryce's career isn't written in stone, he could still be a good QB. But that doesn't mean it was a smart trade, and not being able to distinguish and see the difference in those two things is on you, not on me for being an irrational person/fan.

Honestly, I'd inactivate him each week until we can get a trade done at this point, can't risk him getting hurt and losing any trade value. This team is not even remotely close to being a contender, not this year and at this rate, not for a couple years. There is no point in paying Burns what we'll need to pay him, just for us to continue to be a sub .500 team when the alternative is getting a couple firsts (yes, someone will still give us that) and 2 high quality players with that 30-35 million in cap space we won't have to use on him. That's a 4 for 1 deal and as good as Burns can be, we need the 4 starter level players more right now. And I don't say this lightly, I love Burns the player and person, I was also leading the charge all offseason to just pay him what he wanted to get it done. But now that we see what this team is right now, and that we still can't get a deal done, it's just time to do what's best for the franchise right now and move him for a haul.

If I go and play Russian Roulette and survive, does that mean it was the smart decision to play? Of course not His career can work out and it still be a bad trade that ended up working for us, they're not mutually exclusive. There were just far too many risks with Young to give up everything we gave up to get him. He only has 1 elite trait and that's the mental side of things, which is also the one thing that you can coach up in anyone. You can't coach up physical traits and he doesn't posses any elite QB physical traits, and it's shown in these 2 games, badly. Like I said, I'm still going to hope his career works out for us, I'm not giving up on him as a player, he still has potential, but the trade was horrible when you take all factors into consideration. Admitting that doesn't make you a bad fan, it makes you just a person who can objectively look at a situation regardless of your fandom.

We made a bad trade and risked the franchise on the wrong QB, it's okay to admit it. Refusing to admit it won't change things and make them all better. We're here now and have to deal with it, but sticking your head in the sand and pretending you're seeing things that give you hope isn't going to help. None of that is to say Bryce can't end up as a good QB, it's still absurdly too early to say anything remotely like that. But we traded CMC, Moore, 2023 First, 2024 First, 2025 Second and all we got in return was Bryce Young, DJ Johnson and a 2024 5th round pick (and yes, that's literally all we have left from CMC, Moore and those picks, we used everything from the CMC trade to get Bryce and Johnson except for that 5th). There's no way to slice it, with how Bryce as looked so far, we gave up entirely too much to take the risk on Bryce working out.

If Tepper is the analytical person he says he is, he won't fire Fitterer unless he also plans on firing Reich, they're now tied at the hip. Analytics show that GM and HC hires that aren't made in the same season, don't work out well. The next time either gets replaced, they both will, which means Fitterer is likely around for next season as well.

The one true glimmer of hope right now is that it looks like we might be awful for a few more years. Which will set up nicely for us to get the #1 overall pick in 2026 and take Arch Manning. #WinningTheLongGame

I don't mind the waiting to snap the ball given what Bryce's skillset it supposed to be, this isn't like when we did it with Cam to let it run down while just standing around. That is by design to let Bryce do his mental side of things, which I'm fine with. The scary thing is that he kept doing his audibles, particularly on 3rd down, and they NEVER worked. Think the only time I noticed him doing his audibles at the line on 3rd down and we converted was when he ended up scrambling for the long run, which while nice, has nothing to do with his changes at the line.