tukafan21

So.... you're admitting he's never going to be the type of QB who can drag his team to victories on a consistent basis? Because in today's NFL, the teams that are constant contenders have QB's who can put up those kind of games will their team to wins when needed. If Bryce was anything near as amazing last year as the Bryce defenders try to insinuate he was, we'd either have won more games or his stats would have been better, if not both. Yes, he showed significant improvement over the last 2 months of the season. Yes, he had a few clutch moments/throws/drives in that span too. BUT... It's also very much a true statement that on the whole, he was still AT BEST an average QB during that time period. And for a QB who was touted as being a PG who can get wins without elite talent around him because of how he sees the game, that's just not good enough, sorry. And none of that is to say he can't do that this year, especially after we gave him a weapon like T-Mac and hopefully an improved XL and Coker. But stop trying to say he was this amazing QB to end the year who has proven he can (and should) be considered a long term solution as a franchise QB, as it's just not true.

In what way is that remotely the same thing as I'm saying here? First things first, comparing QB's to any other position is just asinine to begin with. Second, you're trying to imply the exact opposite of what I'm saying here, so it just doesn't make sense. I'm saying if you remove the players that teams haven't committed to as their long term QB solutions yet, Bryce is the last player ranked in this set of rankings, that's all. But sure, go ahead and try to make some weird convoluted equivalent for my love of T-Mac (who btw, you'd probably only need to take away 12-15 WRs for me to rank T-Mac #1 in a dynasty format, just sayin, lol)

You and I have drastically different definitions of the world "incredible" He looked very much improved, but seeing as his starting point was competing to be the biggest draft bust in NFL history with Ryan Leaf and Jamarcus Russell, looking very much improved is still a relative term. 3 games over 219 yards passing, only 1 of them over 263, and a high of 298 is nowhere near "incredible" And yes, PLENTY of people on here have been crowning him as having proved himself as a franchise QB and many legitimately think he's going to be a Top 10 QB in this league this offseason. I've said time and again I'm not a Bryce believer, that I think his max potential in this league is a middle of the road average starter, around 16-20th best in the league. That's nowhere near good enough for the trade we made to get him, taking him at #1, or the contracts being given out to starting QB's. I've also said I'm still rooting for him because he's a Panther and him turning out to be a franchise QB is still our fastest path to contending right now. But that doesn't mean I think he's going to end up as such, I think we're either going to end up replacing him after his rookie contract or end up way overpaying for him and what he can do for us, but we'll see.

Not really, the only QB's (other than Anthony Richardson) ranked below him are new to their teams as a placeholder starter or drafted in 2024 or 2025, not a lot of gymnastics to get there. It's not about how many that is, if it's 20, 12, or 2... It means there isn't a QB who's team has committed to them for the long term right now that they have ranked below Bryce. That's not a great thing.

So basically, if you remove 1st and 2nd year QB's not named Jayden Daniels, and remove the vets on new teams who are placeholders until their own rookies take over the job.... The only other QB ranked lower than Bryce is Anthony Richardson, who may not even win the week 1 job in the end anyways. Which means they're ranking him 20th, but really he's the last ranked entrenched starting QB that isn't in their 1st or 2nd season. #Winning

If anything, only getting 1 SB when you had Manning for that long should be a negative on his legacy, just like it was for the Saints to only get 1 with Brees and the Packers to only get 1 each with Favre and Rodgers. I know it's hard to win a SB, but these are basically 4 of the 10 best QB's of all time and combined to win 4 SB's in a combined 60 seasons worth of being a starting QB for those franchises.

I'm was shocked to hear he was only 65, I'd have guessed he was at minimum 75, if not closer to 85.

So you're just going to put words in my mouth? Because literally the very first sentence I said in this thread was that if we're not going to be true contenders (not champions, but just an actual contender, i.e. a team that can win multiple playoff games and have a true chance at making a SB run), that I'd rather miss the playoffs than win the division and then lose in the first round. But you've tried to twist it into me now saying if we don't win it all, then I'd rather miss the playoffs, despite me numerous times in this thread stating that's explicitly not the case, it's solely two options, make the playoffs and lose in the first round or just miss the playoffs, in which I'd rather miss the playoffs by a nose. Have a different opinion if you want, but don't try and tell me I'm saying something I'm not to make your point.

No, I don't root for drops to be what loses a game, especially from a player who has/had drop issues, as that's not showing improvement. And no, I don't resent it if they win, just as I don't "celebrate" if we lose either. But I don't get upset if we lose because I know it's for the best for our future, just like I don't go running through the streets celebrating a meaningless December win that doesn't do anything other than hurt our draft stock in a lost season. In a year like last year and this next year, where we've put considerable assets into the offense at the expense of our defense to be fixed later, something both fans and the team themselves know, as you can only add so many players in any given offseason. Then I'm looking for us to click offensively, have everyone looking better than the year before and show growth. But then the side of our team we know is a weakness, to be the reason we lose in a high scoring game. Give me Bryce going down and taking a 2 point lead with 2-3 minutes left in the game, but then our defense almost holding the other team from getting into scoring position and they end up needing a 55 yard FG to win the game and beat us. That can happen while our young defensive players show tons of promise, but still have one or two too many holes and/or just inexperience that it costs us games in the end, but it's still a successful season of growth and improvement. Or even better, just look great on both sides in a close game and end up getting totally screwed by the refs with a bad late call that hands them the game. And again, those are the kinds of things I'm wanting to see happen once it's already a lost season. And I'm only saying I'd rather not make the playoffs when the alternate scenario is making but losing in the first round. Because those are the scenarios where we improve as a team, get better draft picks, and an easier schedule the next year. You then use the cap space and higher draft picks to fill the remaining defensive holes with impact players and you're then cooking with gas in that next season and have real potential.

Sure, totally fair, but then you seem to be a fan who cares more about entertainment than winning championships, and I can't fault that. But it's been 30 years, I don't care about just having fun in the regular season anymore, I want to win a fuging championship. My two favorite teams that I live and die with are the Panthers and Arizona Basketball. We've never won a SB of course, and I wasn't an Arizona fan growing up and unfortunately went out there for school just after our last Final Four. If you don't count my new Wrexham fandom, my only championships as a fan are the Red Wings and that's been a LONG time. I'm sick of falling short with my teams, I'm done caring about any regular season success with either, I want a SB and I want a Final Four, literally anything short of those at this point are failures in my mind. So for me, yea, I look at EVERYTHING with this team from the lens of "will this help us win a Super Bowl faster or not" And if the answer is that it won't, then I can't get on board with it, sorry if that rubs people the wrong way, I want to win when it matters, not when it doesn't.

No, not it's not. Because in your other scenario the team won 2 playoff games and played in the conference championship, that's so much better for the team than draft picks. Teams don't luck into that scenario, if that happens, it means Bryce proved himself to be our QB of the future and we likely struck gold with guys like Scourton, Princely, and Ransom which helped turn around the defense into a top half of the league unit. Again, that option isn't even on the table in this discussion here, because no poo, everyone here would take that option. It's would you rather make the playoffs but lose in the first round or just miss the playoffs and get better draft picks AND an easier schedule the next year. I'm literally not even sitting here saying "I'd rather lose and miss the playoffs than make it" as I"m explicitly saying the scenario I'm discussing involves missing the playoffs or losing in the first round.

JFC Why is this concept SOOOOOOOOO hard for some fans to understand. Fans wanting a team to fight hard, get better as players and a franchise, but end up losing games to help draft/schedule in the future...... IS NOT......... Fans wanting the players/team to purposefully try and lose. So all this talk about "players always try to win" or "trying to lose doesn't help the culture" blah blah blah is so badly missing the point that it's borderline scary.

Then don't tune in. It's really not a hard concept to understand, if your making your decision based on your own personal needs/feelings as opposed to what is best for the future of the franchise, then it's a you problem, not a Panthers problem. When the season is already lost, every fan should be rooting for the same thing. The team plays hard until the final whistle of the season and keeps improving as a team and individually, but in the end, we still come up short and lose games, and preferably because the other team beat us, not because we screwed up and found a way to lose due to our own fault. Look at it this way... If we are up 1 or 2 points with 3 seconds left in the game and the other team is lining up for a FG. Beyond the joy of victory or the disappointment of defeat, what impact does the other team making or missing the FG have on our team the following season? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING Except where we draft and what teams we play due to our finish in the division. The players and coaches on the team would have the exact same level of improvement and learnings about themselves individually and as a team whether the FG is made or missed. The ONLY difference in the end is the record in the standings and if the win or loss number changes. If you want to argue if making the playoffs to lose in the first round or just missing them is better or worse, that's totally fair and I can at least understand the other side of it. But in what is already a lost season, if you're not hoping your team plays well but ends up losing, then you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. You're hoping for a moment of happiness at the detriment of the franchise's future, and in turn, you're basically then happy for a moment to only set yourself up for future further disappointment.

Two things terribly wrong with this post. First is that not one time has myself or anyone else agreeing with me said that the team themselves should think that way or try and lose for positioning. Never once have I suggested the team should purposefully lose games, ever. I honestly can't understand why people keep saying this in posts, not one fan has ever said the players should or would purposefully try to lose. And second, is yes, that has happened and it's happened very recently. The 2020 Bengals were 4-11-1 and then were playing in the SB the very next season. And while it might have been 2 years later and they didn't quite get to the SB, the 2021 Lions were 3-13-1 and then the 2023 Lions were up 24-7 at halftime of the NFC Championship game. The season between those two? They finished 9-8 and only just missed the playoffs. Which is why I keep trying to compare us to the Lions in where we are at in our re-build. Throw out Bryce's rookie year with the Reich staff who just didn't work out and he looked god awful. This past season when we were 5-12 in Canales' 1st season is that 2021 season for the Lions and their 1st season under Campbell. This year is their 2022 where they grew a ton and Campbell's culture building was clear, where I'm saying we'd likely be better off in the long run if we go 8-9 or 9-8 and just miss out on the playoffs (which is still a significant improvement from last year). Then our 2026 is their 2024 when we have a chance to be a real contender after adding a few more pieces and our key players having another year of experience under their belts.

Just because all draft picks are a gamble doesn't mean you don't have a better chance at hitting on a better player the higher you're drafting. It would literally be like someone saying, I'll give you 1 or 2 free spins on a slot machine, and you say you'll take the 1 because you're not likely to win anything anyways with 1 or 2, so why bother? The Cowboys desperately wanted T-Mac, but because they were 4 picks behind us, they weren't able to get him. If you told Cowboys fans that had they lost 2 more games last year in a lost season, that it would get them the player they wanted so badly, would they in retrospect go back and lose those games to get their guy? 95% of them would take that trade off in a heartbeat, and the others who wouldn't are the fans who would rather enjoy an extra win or two in a poo season to then set themselves up to be better for the next decade. I also think the fans who argue against this thinking, get too caught up in the "well that means you're going to be rooting against us late in the season even if we still have a shot at the playoffs." Which isn't true, it's saying if you're telling me right now we'd make the playoffs but lose in the first round, that I'd rather end up 8-9 or 9-8 and just miss the playoffs because in our opinion, the benefits that come along with that outweigh the benefit of the players getting 1 game of playoff experience.

And we went 5-12 last year while being nowhere near the playoffs You think going 8-9 while being in the playoff hunt until Week 17 or 18 and ending up just missing out wouldn't be considered growth this year? You're acting like I'm saying we should be playing for the #1 pick and try to lose every game for it. It's not even like I'm saying I want us going into Week 18 needing a win to make the playoffs and a loss keeps us out and thus I'm rooting against us that game. I'm solely saying that I think making the playoffs only to lose in the first round would in the end, be less beneficial for us than if we were to just miss the playoffs, pick 5-7 spots earlier in the draft, and get the easier schedule that goes along with it.

He did, and I don’t have any idea why I said not as fast, lol As what I meant was not as physical, because that’s what people wish he did more like Evans because of his size, and I’ve said his agility is surprising for a guy his size and it’s why he leans on that than being physical.

The Bengals went from 4-11-1 in 2020 to the SB in 2021. The Lions just missed the 2022 playoffs and then had what, a 20 point lead at halftime of the NFC Championship in 2023 and then a 1 seed in 2024. I’m literally living in today’s NFL reality. If Bryce is the guy, then we’re not all that far off right now. We have the OL, we have the RBs, and we have the WRs. We need a season for all our young weapons and Bryce to get to know each other and another offseason of building the defense up and I think we have real potential. This is a year for building, next year is a year for contending. Now, if Bryce isn’t the guy, we’re gonna suck and be drafting a new QB next year anyways.

And only the fans who can't see anything other than black or white think like this. Did I one time mention tanking or trying to lose on purpose? No, I explicitly said the opposite, that we show great growth and just lose some close games. I'm not asking them to lose or even try to lose, nothing of the sort. Do you want to feel good about some wins or playoff appearances or do you want to win a Super Bowl? Because while I'm sick of losing and not making the playoffs, I'm more sick of never having won a SB and I don't care about anything other than that right now. For me, as a fan, I'm going to root for them every week, but I can objectively step back and know we're not contending this year, if we make the playoffs it's squeaking in and then losing the first game. So I'm able to objectively look at it and know it's in our best interests to be better this year, win a few more games, but still just miss out on the playoffs and hope we finish in 3rd place because the Bucs and Falcons made the playoffs. If you can't OBJECTIVELY see how that sets us up to have a better 2026 season when we actually might be good enough to contend, then that's a you problem, sorry.

He poo the bed in the playoffs, but true bums can't do what he did last year, no matter the talent around them. He's somewhere between what he was with the Jets and what he was last year, where that is I'm not sure.

It's not only about the draft spots, the scheduling is a huge factor. We already have a tough 2026 schedule by playing the North divisions, that's possibly 7 playoff contenders there and a few true SB contenders between the Lions, Packers, Vikings, Bears, Ravens, Bengals, and Steelers (Browns will still suck lol), while also pulling the AFC West for the 17th game. Let's just say for the sake of argument we are going to be true contenders in 2026 in both scenarios Would you rather go 9-8 and to make the playoffs as the last WC or worst division winner, lose in the first round and then have to add likely the Eagles/Commanders, 49ers/Rams, and Chiefs/Chargers to an already tough schedule because we have a 1st/2nd round finish this year, while picking 19th in the draft (where the worst playoff team picks) or Or lose an extra game to finish 8-9, while ending up in 3rd (obviously need Falcons/Bucs to get a WC spot) and miss the playoffs, but then get to add likely the Cowboys/Giants, Seahawks/Cardinals, Broncos/Raiders to the schedule while picking 13th in the draft (the highest an 8-9 team picked this year). I can understand why some people would just want to go to the playoffs again, and I can't fault that thinking. But I'm always a bigger picture person and looking at what is best for the future of the franchise and winning a SB, not my immediate feelings that game/season. So I'm taking those 3 SIGNIFICANTLY easier games and the 6 better draft spots. If we're a true contender in 2026, those 3 games based on divisional finish could very well be the difference of a 1 vs whatever seed. Right now the top teams in the NFC are the teams who play in places you don't want to have road playoff games at... GB, Detroit, Philly are some of the toughest stadiums to play in, especially if cold weather games for the outdoors ones. Give me the few extra easier games to hopefully make the difference in getting home field advantage. Making the playoffs to just lose in the first round isn't worth the first scenario to me when the alternative is losing maybe one or two more games while looking better while doing so. I can stomach those extra losses in a much improved season when it's for the betterment of our future.

Unless a miracle happens and we're legit SB contenders, I want to just miss the playoffs due to some close losses, not win the division to lose in the first round. We finally have all of our picks again next year, I'd rather be picking 5-7 spots higher in each round, while at the same time, then having a 2nd or 3rd place schedule next year instead of a 1st place one. I just can't see any scenario where we are true contenders this year, but we should find out if Bryce can be our QB of the future. If he isn't, then we're not making the playoffs anyways and will have a high pick to replace him. If he is, it means 2026 is the real opening of our SB window once we add some more defensive pieces, so I'd rather go into that season picking earlier and have an easier schedule. And yes, I know people will say think like "you need to win to gain confidence and experience, blah blah blah" But just missing out on the playoffs because you lost couple close games is certainly a way to make a team hungry going into the offseason and keep them motivated to be better. I've said it before and still think it holds true, we need to look at the Lions and hope to repeat their path. Our last few years were their early 2020s when they sucked. This year can be our version of their 2022 when they missed the playoffs in week 17. Then our 2026 can be their 2023 when they made a run to the NFC Championship game (and really should have won it). Which then puts us in line to be one of the best teams in the league going into 2027, as they were last year.

Hmmmmm, sounds like a familiar fear And sure, a big part of my fear was the injury concern (that will always follow Bryce around) but the everything else I said is the same. If he's too good to let walk in FA but not good enough to justify a top end contract, we're in the worst possible situation

Eh, not convinced he's a bum, but also not saying he's a star either. If there was any coaching staff in recent memory that was worse than ours with Rhule, it was the Jets staff during Darnold's time there. I honestly just don't think we really know who Darnold is as a player yet because of it, this season will be very telling, he genuinely could be a bust or a solid above average starter and I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Darnold and Baker both bombed here with the same team and coaching and then both went on to look pretty darn good afterwards. I'm not saying Darnold (or Baker) is some elite QB, but I don't put their issues here on either of them, that staff was a joke.