Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

FYI on the Newton Debate


  • Please log in to reply
239 replies to this topic

#61 PackPanther

PackPanther

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:26 PM

Obviously you are one of the folks this thread is directed towards. THose comments are defintely racist and you don't have to be black or racially sensitive to see them. We will all be better off if you keep those kind of ignorant comments to yourself.


can you please point to the place where I discuss race at all? is it the part where I said he is a thief? nothing to do with the fact he is black. just the fact that he stole a laptop. The part that his father was shopping him around to schools? no thats just what happened. Look I have no racial feelings towards him what-so-ever. I just think that he is a bad choice for this franchise and I think that there will be more problems when he goes pro.

The point I was trying to get across is that trouble follows him everywhere. If that seems racist to you then idk what else I can say to you

#62 Proudiddy

Proudiddy

    The Thread Killer (Since 2004)

  • Moderators
  • 16,183 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:28 PM

Christ. We know you don't want Cam Newton Mr Scot.

I've been reading this board a few years now, and i respect you as a poster. But this all cracks me up. You claim to not want a QB at all in the draft, even though you were ok with Luck who for all we know be a bigger bust than Newton could. Didnt you make a thread recently saying you'd be willing to take Blaine Gabbert? Maybe you were kidding, i don't know.

This whole thing is ridiculous. I see arguments from both sides, and interesting points raised by both as well.

However, just because others don't agree with you doesn't mean their opinion is inferior to your 'vast knowledge'. We have a new coaching staff, but it seems to me a lot of people here still cling to the conservative John Fox era. I doubt anyone wants to hear "there's always next year" anymore.

Rivera has his a big ass weight on his shoulders. His tenure here is going to be determined by how he addresses the QB position. Think he's gonna risk his first HC gig with an aging QB?


Why should he address this when he can make up his own rules as he goes. Liked Luck, but doesn't want any part of Cam. Gabbert might be okay, wait a minute, he was just "joking."

Good job. Good luck getting him to stick to his guns. He'll probably need a new thread for it anyway.

#63 blackcatgrowl

blackcatgrowl

    Trolls live here

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,944 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:30 PM

just curious, but do you think he has a good family? a dad who is basically a stage parent the sells his son around like a pimp. I mean I hope I am wrong even if we dont get Cam. I never hope that he will be a bum but thats just the feeling I get.

also which of these are unproven. We know that his father was trying to get money out of schools and we know Cam stole a laptop. We also know he cheated on a test which I didnt even mention in my first post. so, which of these "allegations" is unproven?


I think I don't care. I think as long as he is throwing TDs and winning games, and staying out of trouble himself, his family has nothing to do with anything I give a crap about.

But for the record. Cam didn't steal the laptop his friend stole it. And there is no evidence that definitively shows he cheated on tests. But again, none of this has anything to do with winning games in the NFL.

#64 MattB

MattB

    Project QB

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 273 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:31 PM

can you please point to the place where I discuss race at all? is it the part where I said he is a thief? nothing to do with the fact he is black. just the fact that he stole a laptop. The part that his father was shopping him around to schools? no thats just what happened. Look I have no racial feelings towards him what-so-ever. I just think that he is a bad choice for this franchise and I think that there will be more problems when he goes pro.

The point I was trying to get across is that trouble follows him everywhere. If that seems racist to you then idk what else I can say to you


I'm pretty sure Hurney and co have done plenty of background on him. To me the fact that he's being so seriously considered is a sign that they haven't found out anything bad about him.

#65 ncmonzta

ncmonzta

    CBA=Offer U Can't Refuse

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,806 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:31 PM

This sounds like what you might be infering....

"I know you arent a Cam fan, because you have a love for Mustangs, and NASCAR! Thats how I know you dont want a BLACK QB!"

Is this right???


did I say that. Just clownin take it easy. That must be something from within
By the way I'm not really new here I 've always come here for updates and to read the articles but never really blogged. Yes I am a fan of Cam but a Panther fan first since day1

#66 Urrymonster

Urrymonster

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,264 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:33 PM

Ok so I wouldn't be bothered if we draft Cam. At the end of the day I am not thrilled about any prospect, however I certainly don't think the strongest player in this draf tis a QB.

Why do I have genuine questions about Cam? Remember this is a pure analysis on Cam, not how he is in relation to others in the draft. Just because I think these thing about him, doesn't mean I think anyone else is any better.

1. Footwork - This is basically the biggest question mark surrounding his technique as a whole. His footwork during drop backs is slow and plodding, lacking much urgency. Then once in the pocket, he stands like a sprinter, rather than on his toes able to make quick changes of direction to evade the pas rush. In college he extended a lot of plays through simple upper body strength to shrug off defenders. It could translate, but look at the guys who extend the plays the best in the NFL and they have incredible footwork (including Big Ben), where they can just move inches and yet make people miss completely. The reason this is such a big issue, is simply that he has had good coaches, yet not shown any ability in this area. It really is a big deal, because footwork is the basis to start all actions he is every going to do as a quarterback

2. Accuracy - He is decent. Certainly not amazing, but not really that good either. Now consider our proposed offense. We aren't going to be manipulating matchups to get quick easy completions like the Pats, instead we are going to be asking our QB to make big throws. A lot. You can scream about his college completion rate all you want, but due to his running threat, teams almost asked him to throw. In the NFL they are going to beg him to run so they can lay some hits on him, unless he is awful at throwing ;). His biggest area of concern? The intermediate routes, which are incredibly important for our offense.

3. Release - When it's good, you get a fantastic and powerful throw. When it's not good, his passes are really poor. This goes back to his footwork, as he very frequently doesn't get himself set or relies on his sheer strength when throwing. Now I know most QBs have to improvise at times with their delivery, however for Cam this is pretty common to see and it really is that much worse than his 'good' deliveries.

4. Reading Defences - QBs who are in the league for a long time are smart QBs who can read a defence before they even know what they are doing themselves. This is a completely subjective statement, but I don't see Cam currently even coming close to being proficient in this area, let alone elite. As much athletic potential gets you a good productive 3-5 years, to be productive for 5-10 years requires genuine ability to play traditional QB play. At no point this season was he asked to read complex defences. At no point did he make several reads post snap, it was all 1-2 reads. At no point did he pick up what the defence was showing, make a change pre-snap and then exploit a matchup. I am not denying he can learn these things, but he is a LOT further away than almost all QBs in this draft. The issue with not knowing it NOW, is that he will have even less time at the ext level, which will only make him rely on his instincts - which is to run.

5. Risk - Whether you put much stock in his character or not, things have played a part in the past. So that is up to you if that is significant or not. The issue is that he has to learn a lot more than most rookie QBs with regards to reading defences, he has to make a complete overhaul on his footwork, he has to work on cutting out his improvised throwing motion, he has to somehow suddenly become more accurate, he also has to avoid turning to his instinct to run when things start closing in on him. That is a lot. If he plays in his first year I think you see a similar career path to Young (not him being a headcase, purely not developing as a passer). If he sits for 1-2 years, then you can make sure those issues are completely gone before he is put in the firing line. It's important because the amount of increased pressure he will be in during games, will only make it harder to stick to his teachings rather than do what he has done his whole life.

Edited by Urrymonster, 10 March 2011 - 06:37 PM.


#67 OneBadassCat

OneBadassCat

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,082 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:34 PM

Just like we won't pretend that comments like he is isn't smart and can only run but not throw aren't infuenced by the fact he is black. Frankly if I were black I would want him here not because he is black but because He has the ability and the potential to be great. But it wouldn't hurt that he could also change the stereotypes about black athletic quarterbacks and the fact he is black.


Good we can agree on the first part. But where you see potential to be great others see potential for him to fail hard. Personally with the #1 selection, if I am taking a QB I want the most sure fire "to be elite" prospect there has been in years. Cam does not do that for me. I want an Aaron Rodgers or a Philip Rivers who can dictate a defense and adapt to course of the game. I want my offense to be able to beat anyone, no limitations, and I want it in 1-2 years. Cam has too much room to grow.

If we had the 18th or maybe a later selection I'd take him but #1 need an immediate impact, with lowest bust potential possible.

#68 Urrymonster

Urrymonster

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,264 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:36 PM

Um.

Not hardly, only one is.

I will type it out so even you can understand.

1. Athleticism- His overall ability is a rare talent.
2. Best Chance to Win- Out of the draft Newton gives the Panthers the best chance to win, unless someone else wants to argue for another QB.
3. Only one team has Ron Rivera and his "teaching" staff, who should be able to really develop Cam if we choose to draft him.
4. Risk vs. Reward- Has the best upside out of anyone in the draft if (the "if" should be replaced with a "when" with the coaching staff in place) he reaches his full potential.
5. Irrelevant to his actual skills, but would bring some attention that the Panthers fanbase waver on way to much.


1. Agreed, which is what worries me that his best asset isn't the biggest importance at the QB position
2. Subjective because he really needs to sit for a year at least
3. Can be applied to any player you draft
4. Personally I see he has elite physical potential, but not elite potential as a student of the game. Essentially I can't see him breaking down defences in a Manning-esque fashion
5. Irrelevant, as you pointed out

#69 ncmonzta

ncmonzta

    CBA=Offer U Can't Refuse

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,806 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:39 PM

1. Agreed, which is what worries me that his best asset isn't the biggest importance at the QB position
2. Subjective because he really needs to sit for a year at least
3. Can be applied to any player you draft
4. Personally I see he has elite physical potential, but not elite potential as a student of the game. Essentially I can't see him breaking down defences in a Manning-esque fashion
5. Irrelevant, as you pointed out


Manning didnt come in the NFL breaking down defenses that came with time. Everything I hear about Newton tells me he is a student of the game he says he wants to be great I wouldnt doubt him since he's proven doubters wrong so far.

#70 PackPanther

PackPanther

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:40 PM

I think I don't care. I think as long as he is throwing TDs and winning games, and staying out of trouble himself, his family has nothing to do with anything I give a crap about.

But for the record. Cam didn't steal the laptop his friend stole it. And there is no evidence that definitively shows he cheated on tests. But again, none of this has anything to do with winning games in the NFL.


no I totally agree with you. if he can stay out of trouble and produce on the field then there should be no problem. but just from what I have heard NFL management officials talking about they see the test cheating as the biggest problem. They are saying that this could mean he is ok with taking short cuts or not putting in time into stuff that he doesnt think is important.

Now I am not saying you have to agree with what they said, but you should agree that if some player doesnt think certain things are worth his time, he might not spend the time on it that he should. You can see how this could be a problem with coaches.

#71 YourMomsLover

YourMomsLover

    SENIOR HUDDLER

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,876 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:41 PM

That must be something from within


So you're covertly calling me a racist again?:smilielol5:

#72 Urrymonster

Urrymonster

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,264 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:41 PM

Manning didnt come in the NFL breaking down defenses that came with time. Everything I hear about Newton tells me he is a student of the game he says he wants to be great I wouldnt doubt him since he's proven doubters wrong so far.


I am afraid Manning did come into the league having shown to make pre-snap reads and adjustments. It was one of the primary reasons he was seen as a can't miss prospect that everyone was desperate to draft him.

#73 CarolinaPanthers8789

CarolinaPanthers8789

    Alexander SEMIN!!! FTW

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,304 posts
  • LocationNorth Carolina/Virginia

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:41 PM

Palmer would be best (and I say this as a longtime Palmer detractor) but whether or not he can be had is a question mark. Orton would be good too but there's probably less chance of getting him than Palmer.

Volek knows that system and has been an effective starter in the past. He's up there in years though. Much shorter solution than palmer would be.

There's been some good stuff written about Bulger recently, and he's another guy with experience in a related system (via Martz) so he could be an option.

All in all though, I have to go back to what I've said before. We picked a really bad year to need a quarterback.



Palmer couldn't get it done with the Bengals receiving core of Ochocinco, Owens, Shipley, and Bryant. What make's you think he could with Smith, LaFell, Gettis, and Edwards?

Volek's record in games that he has thrown more than 10 passes- 4-11
Volek's record as a starter- 3-8

^ That looks like Jimmy Clausen's record.

#74 ncmonzta

ncmonzta

    CBA=Offer U Can't Refuse

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,806 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:42 PM

By college career, you must be thinking of last season.


I'm thinking of last season and his JUCO season where he also won a championship or does that not count towards a college career

#75 PackPanther

PackPanther

    Senior Member

  • HUDDLER
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts

Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:43 PM

I'm pretty sure Hurney and co have done plenty of background on him. To me the fact that he's being so seriously considered is a sign that they haven't found out anything bad about him.


that might be true and I hope so. Thats one thing I like about having Hurney is that we will still have one person who is more conservative so that we dont just get blown away with change.

and thanks for seeing that what I said had nothing to do with race, and just to do with the individual.


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Shop at Amazon Contact Us: info@carolinahuddle.com