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#271 Showtime

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:03 PM

2003 Carolina Panthers 15.6 OYPP.
2011 Carolina Panthers: 16.6 OYPP

2003 Carolina Panthers turnover per possession: ranked 21st (.152)
2011 Carolina Panthers turnovers per possession: ranked 22nd (.145)

So... the 2003 Panthers OYPP is very similar to this years OYPP and they turned the ball over more often that the 2011 Carolina Panthers.

One went to the Super Bowl, the other is 4-9. Why?

2003 Panthers defensive stats:
Yards per drive: 7th
points allowed per drive: 6th
TDs allowed per drive: 7th
Punts forced per drive: 5th
Takeaways: 21st
Drive success rate (three and outs): 7th

Doesn't get any simpler than that. One played in a Super Bowl and the other is 4-9 and the only major difference is the defense.

Thank you and goodnight.



You figure it out.




Simple. Because as usual you are leaving out the other half of the story when it comes to yards per point. Turnovers. Scoring defense yards per point allowed. Which is also a measurement that is most affected by your own offense's turnovers and where they take place.

Which is why net yards per point is an even better measurement. You are looking at one stat that doesn't tell the whole story and are surprised by it.

Offensive yards per point only tells you how efficient your offense was. It says nothing about your defense. That's yet another reason why it's not a fuging team stat. Offensive yards per point measures how good your offense is in scoring points. It doesn't tell you where your defense had to start defending from or how many boneheaded turnovers it had to deal with.

Carolina's scoring defense yards per point allowed 2003: 8th Carolina 16.3
Carolina's scoring defense yards per point allowed 2011: 30th Carolina 13.4

This number doesn't just measure the number of turnovers, or efficiency, but where they took place. Which is more important.

An offensive turnover in our opponent's red-zone for example, hurts our offense, but can sometimes help our defense. If it happens at their 5 yard line...our opponent needs to travel 95 yards to score. That's actually more convenient for our defense than having to defend from their 20-25 yard line which is league average.

But it does hurt your offense's efficiency.

Edited by Showtime, 12 December 2011 - 10:15 PM.


#272 -13 Amp-

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:07 PM

You can win with an efficient offense that's not top 10 in points scored. You can win with an efficient offense that's not top 10 in yards. You obviously CAN'T win with an inefficient offense that's 22nd in the league or lower unless your name is the Pittsburg Steelers and your QB is named Ben Rothlesberger.

The rest of them, including us, are losers.



You can also lose with a better "YPP" then the team your playing, so shut the fug up about this already

#273 mav1234

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:07 PM

lol we're 29th in the league in defensive YPP and it's because our offense "turns it over a lot"?

we do NOT turn the ball over that much - but our defense is so bad we can't afford it at all when we do it. we're like, what, tied for 18th in the league or something? not good, but not terrible either. the NFL average for turnovers is 1.57 per game, we're at 1.61, and now our turnovers are why our defense is 29th?

#274 Showtime

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:19 PM

You can also lose with a better "YPP" then the team your playing, so shut the fug up about this already


Very rarely. So you STFU.

#275 teeray

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:20 PM

Simple. Because as usual you are leaving out the other half of the story when it comes to yards per point. Turnovers. Scoring defense yards per point allowed. Which is also a measurement that is most affected by your own offense's turnovers and where they take place.

Which is why net yards per point is an even better measurement. You are looking at one stat that doesn't tell the whole story and are surprised by it.


We turned the ball over at a higher rate in 2003 :confused:

And you have argued that OYPP is offensive efficiency. Now you are saying it is OYPP and DYPP combined?? So it isn't OYPP? Good then I was right from the beginning.

Your new narrative of "DYPP is also a reflection of our offense" claim is also very amusing because it undermines you entire point from the beginning as well.

Basically you say that if our offense plays poorly the other team's OYPP (or our DYPP) is going to be really, really good.

But in your overzealous attempt to put all things bad on the Panthers offense you not surprisingly failed to realize that the "Panthers offense playing poorly" would likely be interpreted by our opposing fans as "our defense played very well"

Therefore, you have said, "If a defense plays better it would be reflected beneficially in their OYPP" Which is what I have been saying since day one.

In simple terms, if our defense caused our opposing team's offense to "play bad" more often, our OYPP would benefit much like you claim our opposing team's OYPP (or our DYPP) has benefited by our supposed offensive struggles (or opposing team's good defense) . Since that isn't happening our OYPP is being hurt by our defense that can't seem to make other offenses "play poorly". You have made my point!

Thank you and goodnight again.

It is almost too easy.

Edited by teeray, 12 December 2011 - 10:39 PM.


#276 -13 Amp-

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:20 PM

Lol, still on my first account...But it doesn't prove poo if you can still lose with better YPP...so you waste your entire life posting about on account after account...YOU CAN STILL LOSE WITH BETTER YPP SO IT DOESN'T PROVE poo FOR WHOS A WINNER OR LOSER....

#277 Showtime

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:24 PM

lol we're 29th in the league in defensive YPP and it's because our offense "turns it over a lot"?

we do NOT turn the ball over that much - but our defense is so bad we can't afford it at all when we do it. we're like, what, tied for 18th in the league or something? not good, but not terrible either. the NFL average for turnovers is 1.57 per game, we're at 1.61, and now our turnovers are why our defense is 29th?


Because you believe defensive YPP to be a defensive stat. And it's not. It's listed under scoring defense, but it's really your opponent's offensive efficiency against our team.

It's most severely impacted also by your offense.

If you have an inefficient offense, you will have a low defensive yards per point allowed number.
Which is also why when you have an inefficient offense, your defense allows a pooload of points.

A bad offense makes a even a good defense bad.
A good defense, can't help a bad offense in scoring efficiency no matter what they do.

That's the rule of football.

It can help your scoring offense, by actually scoring for them which is what defenses would have to do for us in the second half or late 4th quarter. They'd have to score for us in order for us to win.

Edited by Showtime, 12 December 2011 - 10:26 PM.


#278 SmootsDaddy89

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:28 PM

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#279 teeray

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:36 PM

Because you believe defensive YPP to be a defensive stat. And it's not. It's listed under scoring defense, but it's really your opponent's offensive efficiency against our team.

It's most severely impacted also by your offense.

If you have an inefficient offense, you will have a low defensive yards per point allowed number.
Which is also why when you have an inefficient offense, your defense allows a pooload of points.


The perfect post for my last post so I wanted to quote it before it got deleted :lol:.

#280 mav1234

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 10:49 PM

Because you believe defensive YPP to be a defensive stat. And it's not. It's listed under scoring defense, but it's really your opponent's offensive efficiency against our team.

It's most severely impacted also by your offense.

If you have an inefficient offense, you will have a low defensive yards per point allowed number.
Which is also why when you have an inefficient offense, your defense allows a pooload of points.


if this were all true, you would expect a high correlation between ypp and dypp. unfortunately there is virtually no correlation between ypp and dypp... R² = 0.16 for those of you keeping track at home.

amusingly enough, some of the least efficient offenses have some of the most efficient defenses. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Jacksonville are all top 10 in dypp but bottom 10 in ypp... there just isn't a correlation here... offense and defense are linked, but it isn't shown by correlation between these two stats.

Edited by mav1234, 12 December 2011 - 11:27 PM.


#281 Showtime

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:07 PM

Lol, still on my first account...But it doesn't prove poo if you can still lose with better YPP...so you waste your entire life posting about on account after account...YOU CAN STILL LOSE WITH BETTER YPP SO IT DOESN'T PROVE poo FOR WHOS A WINNER OR LOSER....


Dude it proves that it makes for better football discussions than talking about yards all day long our how bad our defense sucks when it actually never comes close to pin-pointing what's wrong with us and why we are losing. It helps put the blame where it actually belongs.

It proves you are wasting your time talking yards and defense all day long, and have been all year, when in fact, without an efficient offense, WE CAN'T GET ANYWHERE! You have been wasting your time as a football fan discussing pointless stats and figures for years! All of these talks were for nothing. All of this time you took to look poo up, in reality had little to do with whether it would actually do anything for this team's winning record, in the long run. All of these draft talks. All of these player assessments. None of that matters, because if the problem is your efficiency and execution, none of the "typical talk" or "complaints" can actually fix it.

If you have an efficient offense, doing what they are supposed to do, and you still can't muster up a winning record, then you can worry about all that other stuff.

In other words you have been totally ignorant to what matters in football and what contributes most to winning.

Edited by Showtime, 12 December 2011 - 11:38 PM.


#282 Showtime

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:15 PM

if this were all true, you would expect a high correlation between ypp and dypp. unfortunately there is virtually no correlation between ypp and dypp... R² = 0.10 for those of you keeping track at home.

amusingly enough, some of the least efficient offenses have some of the most efficient defenses. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Jacksonville are all top 10 in dypp but bottom 10 in ypp... there just isn't a correlation here... offense and defense are linked, but it isn't shown by correlation between these two stats.


Dude defensive yards per point is your opponent's combined efficiency!

They literally take your opponent's offensive efficiency and add them up.

It basically tells you where turnovers are taking place by your offense. There's only one way for a defense to have an inefficient yards per point allowed: Your offense has to turn over the ball or special teams defense give up big plays. In other words: bad defending field position.

You can have a more efficient defense by stopping an opponent. But you can only have an inefficient number on the defensive side, if your offense turns over the ball in a bad spot or special teams can't stop them until they get to midfield or past the average starting field position of ~25 yards.

There's no way for a defensive yards per point allowed number to be inefficient, or less than average, without an offense doing something to screw them over. It's impossible. Mathematically. It just doesn't happen.

So what does this mean? Our offense isn't just inefficient in scoring points. It's also turning over the ball in bad spots or getting a lot of 3 and outs which puts the defense in a bad spot. It's not like Brady or the Patriots, which rarely turn it over in their own half or rarely get a 3 and out. We do it religiously. Shoot ourselves in the foot and our defense in the head.

We're worse than other inefficient offenses. We're probably the worst in the league. Worse than Indy. At least they can't freaking get going. We do but we stab ourselves in the back repeatedly. They're incapable. We're incompetent. "Plain and simple."

Edited by Showtime, 12 December 2011 - 11:24 PM.


#283 mav1234

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:35 PM

dude, what you're saying is that your offense's ypp determines your dypp, but it isn't even strongly correlated at all, and it certainly would be if you were right. on top of that, you're flat out wrong about "the only way to have an inefficient defense is to have an inefficient offense." let me give you a really simple example.

let's assume your offense scores on every single possession. let's say you have a great kickoff team and every single opponent's drive starts at the 20. Now let's say that every time they have the ball, they march down the field for 80 yards and score a TD. Your offense had nothing to do with that DYPP, yet I would say that a 11.4 DYPP for a defense is extremely inefficient :P That's obviously an unrealistic DYPP, but the point remains: even if your offense plays well, your defense can have a terrible DYPP all on it's own.

They literally take your opponent's offensive efficiency and add them up.


no, they don't... they take the number of yards your opponents have had and divide it by the points you've given up... hence why for us, we've given up 355 points and 4750 yards and have a DYPP of ~13.4

Edited by mav1234, 12 December 2011 - 11:37 PM.


#284 chef17

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:44 PM

I love how stats that begin with defensive aren't actually defensive stats at all. Whoever named them must be some kind of dumbass

#285 mav1234

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:44 PM

we don't actually have a defense, you see... we just put 11 Cam Newtons out there. How else do you explain how they fail to win games in the 4th for us?!?!?!?!


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