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Next Season's Defense....


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#31 Kuech the Sneak

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 12:44 PM

Neither McClain fua or Edwards should be given jobs, they should have to compete with the guys we have now. All the complaining about fua being a rookie and needing to develop at the NT position, kearse is a rookie and playing it way better than he was

#32 rayzor

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 12:51 PM

we went the right direction with edwards. the answer to the DT problem isn't bringing in more youth. we have to get experience in there.

#33 panthers55

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 12:52 PM

I am really hoping that Beason can come back from that injury but statistics are not in his favor to be 100% of the old Beason as much as I hate to admit it. Thomas Davis is also a huge question mark.
I think we go CB then LB but we may be picking to late to pick up a starting caliber CB. I am hoping with a season under there belt that our two rookie DT will come into there own next season.
I believe the secondary is the biggest need so the best play maker available for the secondary would be my first overall pick.


Actually most guys make a full recovery from achilles surgery with no drop off in ability level. On the other hand three ACL tears is another matter totally.

As for who we pick it will be based on who is available versus who wants our pick so we trade down if possible. It is too early to tell who we will pick up although defense is the consensus need.

#34 GritsRgreat

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 12:56 PM

Edwards is an old, warm body at best and i said that when he was signed. hell i said that before the injury.

#35 ed bell

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 01:03 PM

Next season's defense will be the preferred troll topic...if it doesn't improve dramatically right off the bat next year expect plenty of "I thought Rivera knew how to field a defense" etc., etc. type posts......I'm sure a few will still try to troll it up with Cam, but he's effectively chopped that angle off at the neck this year. I'm grateful for that...way less ammo for the upcoming long off season.:)

#36 bleys

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 01:31 PM

I think we should spend two 3rd round picks on DTs and that should solidify the position moving forward.


I would be good with that... only reason to draft a DT is for the future, 4 sophomore and rookie DT's with Ron Edwards + Shirley + Kearse sounds like a solid group for the future..

#37 pantherj

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 01:36 PM

Starting with the Defensive line:

CJ - average against the run, great bull rush, good speed rush.

McClain - below average against the run, average pass rush.

Neblett - below average against the run, average pass rush.

Fua - below average against the run, below average pass rush.

Edwards - above average against the run, average pass rush. (I hear, I've never seen him play)

Hardy - average against the run, average bull rush, good speed rush.

So imo we're going to acquire a FA DT who has good/great pass rushing ability. This would improve the greatest weakness on our defensive line.

We might draft an OLB to replace TD if he goes down yet again with another season ending injury.

At CB we have Gamble, Hogan, Captain as the possible starters for next season. Hogan is 5'10", and Captain is 5'8", which can be a liability in the red zone when teams start lobbing jump balls, you have to assume we'd be at a significant disadvantage. It's possible that we might draft a tall CB to start opposite Gamble, and move Hogan to nickle, and keep Captain as a backup and ST standout.

I'm expecting the Panthers to also draft a safety to push Martin for his starting spot.

#38 Leeroy Jenkins PhD

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 02:33 PM

LDE – Greg Hardy/Thomas Keiser
RDE – Charles Johnson/Antwan Applewhite
We are very good at DE! In rotation, these four players are solid!

DT is a crap shoot! Edwards, Fua, McClain, Neblett, Nwagbuo, Kearse, Shirley, Pressley.
Who knows how this group is going to shape up over the offseason. I really like what I have seen out of Neblett this year. Using a four man rotation, we need 2 pass rushers. I do not see any in this list.

SLB – James Anderson/Thomas Williams
MLB - Jon Beason/Dan Connor/ Omar Gaither
WLB – Thomas Davis?/ Jordan Senn?
Who knows how this group will shape up after injuries. I believe Senn solidified a backup role next year.

SCB (LCB) – Gamble/?
WCB (RCB) - ?/Munnerlyn
Nic – Hogan/Butler
We obviously need another starting caliber m2m cover corner.

SS – Charles Godrey/ Jonathan Nelson?
FS – Sherrod Martin/ Jordan Pugh?
This is not great, but not below average.

#39 Woodie

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 05:59 PM

People are saying we don't need an overhaul, but consider that TD has had three major injuries to his knee - if he comes back they would be very wise to keep him as a role player. Beason has been out all season due to his Achilles injury and his direct replacement Conor, will see his contract expire this season. If we don't bring him back, then we will have twoo players who had major injuries this year, three career below average/poor backups and James Anderson. The linebacker position could well see an overhaul of sorts.

I agree that Davis is probably best suited as a rotational player at this point. If he ever gets back to where he was, we can re-evaluate then, but until then, he only needs to be used in spot duty. As for the rest of the LB's, I am worried about whether or not Beason will come back as the same player he was before. At worst, I think he will still be good, I just don't know if he will be as dominant as he was. So at LB, we need a starting OLB, and someone at MLB that can step in and start if Beason isn't ready or has a setback (whether that's Connor or someone else). And as with every position, we need the best depth we can find.

The DT position was a joke all year long and that was mainly due to lack of disciplined play and experience. Debatable if Edwards makes it back from his injury, Fua and McClain should improve but they were pretty darn awful. That has once again left us with mediocre career backups (I do like Neblett though, have for a while).

I think you are right about the lack of experience hurting the DT's. I don't think either Fua nor McClain were ready to start this year. But I do think both have talent and the potential to be good, solid DT's down the road. The problem is that we need more experience to go along with all of that youth (which includes the young guys that have been playing since both went on IR). And while Edwards coming back will help (and I do think he should be fine coming back from the bicept injury), it's not enough. And despite what some say, it's not a space eater we need, but someone that can consistently get pressure from the inside. So here, we only need one vet to come in, we already have plenty of depth and youth to build on.

Then look to the secondary. Whilst I actually like the look of Munnerlyn as a starter, I am unsure if it's a long term answer. What is more concerning to me is the safety position. Why Godfrey received the extension when he did will baffle me for some time. Martin has sadly made steps backwards (but is no where near as bad as some on here believe).

I can't stand Munnerlyn as anything other than ST. The problem I have with him is that he doesn't have the closing speed and qiuckness to recover when his man has space, but that same lack of speed and quickness (not to mention questionable instincts) also allow WR's to get separation from him far too often. Now Butler, I think, would be ok as the nickel, but I really don't want him starting. Hogan is still an unknown, which makes him a wildcard. If he has shown enough in practice to convince Rivera that he can be a starter next year, we might be ok at CB, but if there's still some question, then we need to look at a CB early.

At Safety, I think we will be ok without making changes. Both have been somewhat inconsistent, but I think a lot of that has to do with still learning the defense, playing with a rotating group of guys in from of them, and a serious lack of pressure from our DL (not to mention Godfrey's shoulder injury). I think both can be solid contributors on a good team, but if the right guy is there, they can be upgraded...but it's relatively low on the priority list.

We have question marks and worse at at least half the starting positons on the defence. Facing facts, we will see plenty of new players next year and I would guess at least 2-3 new starters. As someoner stated, it likely won't be an overhaul, but our defensive staff are going to have a lot of big questions to answer.

I agree we'll see a lot of change on the defensive side. Maybe even a surprise or two. I think we need 3 key additions on defense, one at each level, along with 2-3 guys to upgrade our depth. And while that sounds like a lot, it really isn't. Not if that is our focus for the entire offseason (which I am sure it will be). Most of the depth and even 1 or 2 starters can come from FA (as long as noone expects superstars), while we need at least one immediate starter to come from the draft. Then we can use the rest of the draft to add depth while hopefully developing a couple to be eventual starters.

#40 Urrymonster

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 06:47 PM

Actually most guys make a full recovery from achilles surgery with no drop off in ability level. On the other hand three ACL tears is another matter totally.

As for who we pick it will be based on who is available versus who wants our pick so we trade down if possible. It is too early to tell who we will pick up although defense is the consensus need.


I don't know much about achilles injuries, however I did read this report. It's data is pulled from the 2008-09 period, so its a couple of years behind todays treatment methods, however to assume it's cut and dry that he won't see an impact appears naive.

http://www.lowerextr...-tendon-rupture

#41 Urrymonster

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 07:05 PM

Starting with the Defensive line:

CJ - average against the run, great bull rush, good speed rush.

McClain - below average against the run, average pass rush.

Neblett - below average against the run, average pass rush.

Fua - below average against the run, below average pass rush.

Edwards - above average against the run, average pass rush. (I hear, I've never seen him play)

Hardy - average against the run, average bull rush, good speed rush.

So imo we're going to acquire a FA DT who has good/great pass rushing ability. This would improve the greatest weakness on our defensive line.

We might draft an OLB to replace TD if he goes down yet again with another season ending injury.

At CB we have Gamble, Hogan, Captain as the possible starters for next season. Hogan is 5'10", and Captain is 5'8", which can be a liability in the red zone when teams start lobbing jump balls, you have to assume we'd be at a significant disadvantage. It's possible that we might draft a tall CB to start opposite Gamble, and move Hogan to nickle, and keep Captain as a backup and ST standout.

I'm expecting the Panthers to also draft a safety to push Martin for his starting spot.


This is one of the worst assessments I have ever seen from anyone about any roster.

One of CJ's strengths is his run play and he is one of the leagues best at containing, predicting and making plays. Neblett is a space eater and is good against the run, not so hot in generating pressure. McClain and Fua are not carbon copies of each other, one can get a tiny bit of pressure (McClain) and is terrible against the run, the other is decent at not giving ground (Fua) but can't make a move into the backfield.

Before writing our CBs off, I would actually look into the amount of TDs we have given up to WRs in the red zone. Just to clarify I don't know what that data says.

#42 Miaoww

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 07:27 PM

I don't think that the team is going to have any major overhauls on defense outside of the LBs. Beason, Davis, and Anderson I think will start. TD's knee is an obvious concern, but the 2nd tear came from coming back too early imo, while the injury this season he got rolled up on. From the way it sounds, he will be back (and at worst, as a back-up/vocal team leader). There is a pressing need at WLB. Senn I'd like to see kept on board for depth and special teams.

Captain is the Jordan Senn of the CBs imo. Plays well when asked to fill in, but is best on special teams and being rotated in.

I was all aboard the Morris Claiborne train, but if he is taken before the Panthers selection comes up, I'd like to see the team attempt to trade down in order to nab Zach Brown. If they can't trade, then taking Dre Kirkpatrick could work but I see him being next year's Patrick Peterson: CB in college and drafted to play it in the pros, but would more than likely play much better at S.

DE: CJ, Hardy, Applewhite, Keiser.
I'm good with that. I can't imagine why anyone else would want to waste a pick when the DEs have outplayed everybody else on the defense. All season long we've heard about DT being a problem, LBs decimated by injuries, and questionable secondary play. How often has their been concern about DE, aside from the bitching about CJ's contract and the occasional "Cut Hardy!!!" clowns that are really just trying to start trouble on the boards?

#2 CB, WLB (potential starter), MLB (depth), and S (depth) are the only real positions I'd like to see addressed.



I agree with the theory, I just don't like the players mentioned. I'd rather have J. Jenkins than Claiborne and S. Spence than Brown.

#43 pantherj

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 07:45 PM

This is one of the worst assessments I have ever seen from anyone about any roster.

One of CJ's strengths is his run play and he is one of the leagues best at containing, predicting and making plays. Neblett is a space eater and is good against the run, not so hot in generating pressure. McClain and Fua are not carbon copies of each other, one can get a tiny bit of pressure (McClain) and is terrible against the run, the other is decent at not giving ground (Fua) but can't make a move into the backfield.

Before writing our CBs off, I would actually look into the amount of TDs we have given up to WRs in the red zone. Just to clarify I don't know what that data says.


You say little things in your post that make me think your reading comprehension is suspect. I didn't list Fua and McClain as having the same attributes, and yet you think I did. That makes what you're saying about my post suspect.

#44 nickzz

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 07:48 PM

This is one of the worst assessments I have ever seen from anyone about any roster.

One of CJ's strengths is his run play and he is one of the leagues best at containing, predicting and making plays. Neblett is a space eater and is good against the run, not so hot in generating pressure. McClain and Fua are not carbon copies of each other, one can get a tiny bit of pressure (McClain) and is terrible against the run, the other is decent at not giving ground (Fua) but can't make a move into the backfield.

Before writing our CBs off, I would actually look into the amount of TDs we have given up to WRs in the red zone. Just to clarify I don't know what that data says.


this

#45 Urrymonster

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 05:38 AM

You say little things in your post that make me think your reading comprehension is suspect. I didn't list Fua and McClain as having the same attributes, and yet you think I did. That makes what you're saying about my post suspect.


The difference is one word.

You may not realise it but McClain is no where near Fua in the run game and Fua is no where near MCClain in the passing game. Neither excel in their strongest areas, they should improve, but to have them one degree from average is just wrong.

Using your rather limited way of 'grading', McClain would be very poor against the run, below average pass rush and Fua would be average in the run game and a very poor pass rush.


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