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GM heading for bankruptcy... again.


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#31 SZ James

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:26 AM

My post:

Obsessed? So the recession that happened under bush isn't partially his fault?

Riveting tale, chap.

Where Davidson Deac runs with it:

I just ask if you guys were going to continue to be obsessed with Bush jr. You are the only one who said anything about whose fault the recession was. But since you brought it up.

Recessions generally aren't the "fault" of any specific president. In fact, given the size of the US and World economy, in most cases blaming the president is simplistic and mostly a result of bombastic partisan politics. There are a few cases in which specific policy decisions by a president or the government led to a recession (for example the recession of 1937) but for the most part, they happen for a number of reasons, most of which have very little to do with government policy. George W Bush didn't cause the recession of 2008. He played a role, just as many others (republican, democrat, or none of the above) did, but it was a relatively small one. The forces that caused the 2008 recession had been building longer than many of the posters on this board have been alive.

People like to say that the crisis was caused by shortsightedness, stupidity, and greed. They may be partially right, but those conditions are always with us, and its highly unlikely that they were any worse from 1990-2007 than during previous times in our history.

IMO, it was just part of the economic cycles that have been occurring since our country got started. Worst than many, but certainly not the worst. And while many want the government to try to legislate recessions into history (and Obama is certainly trying), IMO thats impossible and we are always going to have them. They come, we rebound eventually and do well for a while, only to see it all happen again.

You should read a book called This Time its Different.


With most of the fluff removed:

Recessions generally aren't the "fault" of any specific president. George W Bush didn't cause the recession of 2008. He played a role, just as many others (republican, democrat, or none of the above) did, but it was a relatively small one.


You saw the word fault in the same sentence as bush and assumed I blamed him for the whole thing, just so you could go on your little rant :lol:

Ah well it was still a cool story bro even if it had nothing to do with me or what I said.

#32 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 01:01 PM

My post:

Where Davidson Deac runs with it:


With most of the fluff removed:


You saw the word fault in the same sentence as bush and assumed I blamed him for the whole thing, just so you could go on your little rant :lol:

Ah well it was still a cool story bro even if it had nothing to do with me or what I said.

My original comment wasn't even directed at you specifically, not sure why you seem to assume it was. But the board left wing is definitely obsessed with Bush, just as the right was with Clinton during the bush. Only the election of Obama seems to have cured it.

#33 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 01:03 PM

Normally the President does not have a lot of control over the economy.

However, Bush took the unprecedented steps of taking a surplus and instead of saving it, decided to just cut taxes instead. He then started 2 very large wars without funding them, as well as a pretty giant Medicare project. This is more of a deficit spending issue than an "total economy" one but to conservatives, they are somehow one in the same. I think it can be easily argued that Bushes deficits were ones of choice, while Obamas were mostly ones of necessity. Cue Keynesian doubters -

When the housing crash happened and all the banking tricks were exposed, we had nothing in reserve so it was deficit spending to save the economy or let it crash. Bush and Obama saved it, but for some reason Obama is the one getting hit as some kind of big spender.

But hey we can't blame anyone now, its all water under the bridge, unless you are a Muslim Socialist who engineered all this to allow Islamic Fundamentalists to take over the country.


Lots of conservatives do fault Bush for much of the fiscal problems. I think its part of the reason for the rising (relatively) popularity of the libertarian side of the house.

#34 SZ James

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 01:22 PM

My original comment wasn't even directed at you specifically, not sure why you seem to assume it was. But the board left wing is definitely obsessed with Bush, just as the right was with Clinton during the bush. Only the election of Obama seems to have cured it.


What the hell? All I did was reply.

Am I not allowed to respond unless I'm specifically singled out? Wow that's good to know.

#35 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 01:59 PM

You are of course free to respond, but you should probably try to stick to the topic at hand.

#36 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:09 PM

Back to the topic we were discussing, the GM bailout will be mostly Obama's. It won't effect the election, but it will impact his legacy. If GM survives and gets stronger, Obama will be remembered as the guy who saved GM. If they collapse or end up costing the government a lot of money, he will be remembered for costing the taxpayers a fortune.

#37 cookinwithgas

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:12 PM

That's true, although it's not just GM Obama is trying to save, it's all the suppliers and the towns dependent on GM as well.

#38 Davidson Deac II

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:19 PM

That's true, although it's not just GM Obama is trying to save, it's all the suppliers and the towns dependent on GM as well.


True and I don't blame him for doing it. In reality, he didn't have much of a choice. Perhaps he had choices in the methods used to save them, but he had to do something. Remains to be seen whether he made the right decision or not.

#39 SZ James

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:24 PM

I actually would have believed you, Deac. That I read too much into your comment and thought you were talking about the recession during Bush's term when you mentioned a recession in your post. If your post had stopped here:

I just ask if you guys were going to continue to be obsessed with Bush jr. You are the only one who said anything about whose fault the recession was.


"Sorry man, I must have misunderstood--"

BUT SINCE YOU BROUGHT IT UP


Blah blah blah. Leave Bush alone. Rant. Rave. Read this book it totally confirms my bias and stuff. Blah blah blah. The end.

Your intent is so fukin obvious there's no point in you backpedaling. Just an excuse to segue into all that bullshit.

#40 SZ James

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:26 PM

Now,

As you were...

#41 cookinwithgas

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:43 PM

Carter saved Chrysler, but Reagan let it happen and took the credit. No word on whether this proved that Reagan was a socialist.

#42 GOOGLE RON PAUL

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 12:41 AM

Obsessed? So the recession that happened under bush isn't partially his fault?

Riveting tale, chap.


:( :( stop obsessing over arguably the worst president in american history by bringing up things that he is responsible for that are still relevant to this day :( :(

in other words, two-time GWB voter spotted

#43 pstall

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:10 PM

so how much did GM get from the govt(see us) and how much did it pay back? also, where were those funds to pay back the taxpayers from? Was it actual profti? Was it from the US Treasury or another TARP fund?

also how much are the taxpayers STILL on the hook for?

#44 Doc Holiday

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:23 PM

its pstall and stirs

just let em live out their lives in idiocy

Name calling is the first sign of having an unbackable argument, argue the fact or stfu.

Calling someone a dimwit very loudly doesnt make you right.

#45 NanuqoftheNorth

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 11:06 PM

so how much did GM get from the govt(see us) and how much did it pay back? also, where were those funds to pay back the taxpayers from? Was it actual profti? Was it from the US Treasury or another TARP fund?

also how much are the taxpayers STILL on the hook for?


The final chapter of the GM bailout has yet to be written and right now it could go either way. By and large their product is better than it has ever been. Unfortunately for GM, so is the competitions.

By all rights GM should have been dead and buried long ago. While no doubt, they have many very talented and hard working employees, their string of bad leadership is legendary within the industry. The UAW leadership has been no better.

The only reason GM is still with us is they were failing at the same time as our financial sector. It would have been politically untenable to save Wall Street but not save Detroit. Both were TBTF. Neither deserved to be saved but both had to be saved. Perfect examples of FUMU.


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