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If you knew then what you know now...


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#16 top dawg

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:23 PM

You've tapped into part of what I'm pondering here.

Suppose Newton had sat and learned all the nuances of a pro offense for the first season. Would Chudzinski still have felt the need - for whatever reason- to switch to a college style offense in year two?

I know people will go with the "he set a bunch of rookie records" argument in this. Someone will have to tell me exactly what good those records are doing us right now.

Add in that the benefit of whatever good experience he got last year is being erased by the disaster of this year.


The benefit of the experience is intangible, but still a benefit.

If anything, last year showed us that Cam Newton can succeed in this league (and, of course, showed him), which is important. Even this year, we've only been blown out in a couple of games, could easily be 7-3, and Cam has been humbled to some degree. We may not see the benefit of this now, but it manifest itself in the future.

In my mind, this year doesn't erase last year's marginal "success" at all, it just proves how important coaching inexperienced QBs is, and also how important it is to keep expectations in the realm of reality when dealing with a young team.

#17 carolinarolls

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

the problem was never starting him too early.

He was awesome last year and the "records" have nothing to do with me saying that

He is a completely different player this year and its all between his ears. His arm is not weaker. He did not lose weight, height, or speed. He has not been asked to take on any different roles or play a new position. He just is not getting it done.

Last year he did. This year he didn't.

make all the O-line, play-calling, coaching, running game, wide receiver excuses you want. They have their merit but they do not summarily or individually excuse the fact that this guy is not the same guy.

#18 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:26 PM

The benefit of the experience is intangible, but still a benefit.

If anything, last year showed us that Cam Newton can succeed in this league (and, of course, showed him), which is important. Even this year, we've only been blown out in a couple of games, could easily be 7-3, and Cam has been humbled to some degree. We may not see the benefit of this now, but it manifest itself in the future.

In my mind, this year doesn't erase last year's marginal "success" at all, it just proves how important coaching inexperienced QBs is, and also how important it is to keep expectations in the realm of reality when dealing with a young team.


I think those benefits are being erased by the Carr-like treatment Newton is getting now.

To put it another way, I'd happily sacrifice last year's great rookie season if it meant better things for this season. And right now, I think it would have.

#19 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

the problem was never starting him too early.

He was awesome last year and the "records" have nothing to do with me saying that

He is a completely different player this year and its all between his ears. His arm is not weaker. He did not lose weight, height, or speed. He has not been asked to take on any different roles or play a new position. He just is not getting it done.

Last year he did. This year he didn't.

make all the O-line, play-calling, coaching, running game, wide receiver excuses you want. They have their merit but they do not summarily or individually excuse the fact that this guy is not the same guy.


No he's not, but I think he'd be a better guy than he is now if he'd sat for a year, as much as anything because I believe it would have negated the switch to the read option this season and better prepared him for all those new things he's being asked to do.

The atmosphere of the league these days is that long term benefits get sacrificed for short term ones.

I'd much rather Newton had been treated like the Niners treated Colin Kaepernick (with the exception of his starting from day one of year two).

#20 X-Clown

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:35 PM

Ask again what I asked above...

What good is that all time great rookie season doing us, or him, right now?


If Newton doesn't start last year, I think we don't do as well as a team, but it would have been chalked up to Anderson being a mediocre on his best day type of quarterback and therefore, no expectations would have been placed on team success. So if Cam was forced to make his debut this year, with the same play of the offensive line and everything else, it may still have been looked at as a pass year for Rivera/Hurney/Chud/etc. Now that we know what Cam CAN do, and what Rivera/Hurney/Chud can't...we hopefully have a better plan going forward.

#21 La Pantera

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:36 PM

But if Newton hadn't played last year, what impetus would there have been to make that drastic a change?

You don't sit a guy for a year to learn a system and then change to a new system.



What is the reason for making a change all together? If Cam sat last year which offense would he be learning? I doubt it would be the college style because most likely the QB he's learning from would be unable to pull it off. Most likely he'd be learning how to run a system like last seasons (and he was pretty good AND comfortable in that offense). I don't see a way sitting Cam for a year would've helped him run our current offense.

#22 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:43 PM

What is reason for making a change all together? If Cam sat last year which offense would he be learning? I doubt it would be the college style because most likely the QB he's learning from would be unable to pull it off. Most likely he'd be learning how to run a system like last seasons. I don't see a way sitting Cam for a year would've helped him run our current offense.


They would have run a base Coryell offense under Anderson. As it was, they ran a stripped down version of it with Newton.

Why did they change? I wish I knew. But I know that there'd have been a significantly higher probability that they continued running a base Coryell set this season had that been what Newton sat and learned last season.

A year to adjust to the speed of the game...

No game film for other teams to look at...

More time to learn the nuances of being a pro quarterback...

More time to reinforce good habits, footwork, decision making, etc.

As it is right now, if things don't change, there's a good chance that great rookie season becomes little more than a footnote. Like I said above, a short-term benefit that we paid for with a long-term one.

#23 carolinarolls

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:44 PM

Maybe some tertiary-level, somewhat related benefits could be loosely attributed to sitting him for a year. A year of Jimmy the Pick at the helm btw. But 16 games of demonstrating offensive prowess, quieting critics, and delivering the franchise at the doorstep of relevance in the league as well as with fans of ALL franchises are hardly exchangeable for what has been listed as possibly beneficial to him this year.

This guy has some mental obstacles to overcome. We are/were fortunate enough to have him show off his skill set to the world but now are the unfortunate ones that get to suffer the transformation as he wades out of adolescence into manhood and learns how to command respect and force the issue of success in a group setting and not just as an extremely gifted individual.

His constant jumping around in effort to grab spotlight never taught him the necessary lessons every great leader needs IMO. Losing. Playing second fiddle. Earning respect and then more importantly MAINTAINING it. These are the lessons great leaders learn in one way or another. We are just going to have to wait for Cam to learn them.

He is too valuable, glaring deficiencies included, to simply write off. But potentially we have a painful road ahead.

The hard to swallow house cleaning that is on the horizon is the best thing that can happen. He is going to start seeing a lot of new faces. Faces that are not Panthers. He has a chance to seize the reigns starting the day after Rivera and co get their walking papers. At this point that is the only hope for the Panthers I can currently muster.

#24 fieryprophet

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:52 PM

...would you have favored starting Newton from day one or would you have preferred he sit his rookie season, get adjusted to the pro game and start in year two?


Start immediately. Mr. Scot, I respect your opinion because it is usually well founded and based on the evident, so it should be immediately evident that the problem in our offense haslittle to do with Cam and everything to do with a scheme and playcalling attitude that is completely unfit for the NFL level. Cam is running the plays he is asked to run, period, and when they are unsuccessful (especially the read option crap) how is that a reflection on his ability to perform? This offense is hamstrung by incompetence and arrogance from the coaching staff, not its quarterback.

#25 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:54 PM

Maybe some tertiary-level, somewhat related benefits could be loosely attributed to sitting him for a year. A year of Jimmy the Pick at the helm btw. But 16 games of demonstrating offensive prowess, quieting critics, and delivering the franchise at the doorstep of relevance in the league as well as with fans of ALL franchises are hardly exchangeable for what has been listed as possibly beneficial to him this year.


Anderson would have started. And what good does any of that stuff do us this season?

This guy has some mental obstacles to overcome. We are/were fortunate enough to have him show off his skill set to the world but now are the unfortunate ones that get to suffer the transformation as he wades out of adolescence into manhood and learns how to command respect and force the issue of success in a group setting and not just as an extremely gifted individual.


Do you really think is being out there now getting pounded and looking bad is doing him good? I'm sure as heck not seeing it.

His constant jumping around in effort to grab spotlight never taught him the necessary lessons every great leader needs IMO. Losing. Playing second fiddle. Earning respect and then more importantly MAINTAINING it. These are the lessons great leaders learn in one way or another. We are just going to have to wait for Cam to learn them.

He is too valuable, glaring deficiencies included, to simply write off, but we have a painful road ahead.

The hard to swallow house cleaning that is on the horizon is the best thing that can happen. He is going to start seeing a lot of new faces. Faces that are not Panthers. He has a chance to seize the reigns starting the day after Rivera and co get their walking papers. At this point that is the only hopef I can currently muster.


All lessons he could easily have gained with a season of 'watch and learn'.

#26 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

Start immediately. Mr. Scot, I respect your opinion because it is usually well founded and based on the evident, so it should be immediately evident that the problem in our offense haslittle to do with Cam and everything to do with a scheme and playcalling attitude that is completely unfit for the NFL level. Cam is running the plays he is asked to run, period, and when they are unsuccessful (especially the read option crap) how is that a reflection on his ability to perform? This offense is hamstrung by incompetence and arrogance from the coaching staff, not its quarterback.


See the questions above.

If Newton had sat last season, I firmly believe there would have been no switch to a read-option this year.

Throw in these things...

A year to adjust to the speed of the game...

No game film for other teams to look at...

More time to learn the nuances of being a pro quarterback...

More time to reinforce good habits, footwork, decision making, etc.


...and I think you could argue for even more benefits than that.

Like I said, I'd happily have sacrificed last year to know that Newton would be in a better position to be the QB of this team for the next ten. As it is now, for him to have any chance, he'll practically need to be rebuilt from scratch.

#27 fieryprophet

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:56 PM

They would have run a base Coryell offense under Anderson. As it was, they ran a stripped down version of it with Newton.

Why did they change? I wish I knew. But I know that there'd have been a significantly higher probability that they continued running a base Coryell set this season had that been what Newton sat and learned last season.

A year to adjust to the speed of the game...

No game film for other teams to look at...

More time to learn the nuances of being a pro quarterback...

More time to reinforce good habits, footwork, decision making, etc.

As it is right now, if things don't change, there's a good chance that great rookie season becomes little more than a footnote. Like I said above, a short-term benefit that we paid for with a long-term one.


For God's sake, people, why the hell are we acting like we should be OK with the fact that our offensive coaching staff has gone away from what worked last year, and yet blame Cam for it?!?!?

Rather than wondering if starting Derek would have forced them to stick with a pro offense. . .be outraged that they started Cam in one and then moved him to a gimmick rather than developing him properly!

Again, no matter how much Cam may have struggled to pick up the offense, it's the coaching staff's job to teach him and develop him. If they decided that they would rather focus on the gimmicks that is THEIR FAILURE.

#28 fieryprophet

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:58 PM

See the questions above.

If Newton had sat last season, I firmly believe there would have been no switch to a read-option this year.


How is it Cam's fault they switched to a read option? My God, man, we don't blame the soldiers on the battlefield for following orders that turn out to be misguided. Switching to the read option is the coaches failure, not Cam's.

#29 Mr. Scot

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 12:59 PM

For God's sake, people, why the hell are we acting like we should be OK with the fact that our offensive coaching staff has gone away from what worked last year, and yet blame Cam for it?!?!?

Rather than wondering if starting Derek would have forced them to stick with a pro offense. . .be outraged that they started Cam in one and then moved him to a gimmick rather than developing him properly!

Again, no matter how much Cam may have struggled to pick up the offense, it's the coaching staff's job to teach him and develop him. If they decided that they would rather focus on the gimmicks that is THEIR FAILURE.


Coaching staff failure is pretty much the point of the whole thread.

See above.


How is it Cam's fault they switched to a read option? My God, man, we don't blame the soldiers on the battlefield for following orders that turn out to be misguided. Switching to the read option is the coaches failure, not Cam's.


Where on earth do you get that it's Newton's fault they switched?

The switch would not have occurred had they not started him. That's still a coaching decision.

#30 fieryprophet

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

Anderson would have started. And what good does any of that stuff do us this season?



Do you really think is being out there now getting pounded and looking bad is doing him good? I'm sure as heck not seeing it.



All lessons he could easily have gained with a season of 'watch and learn'.


Watch and learn is a farce. You develop by playing. Was Peyton Manning ruined by throwing 28 INTs? Was John Elway ruined by being on atrocious teams for his first few seasons? Cam will come around; hell, at least now he's learning how much more there is to the game that is outside of his control. This season may end up benefiting him more than last season ever did, because he knows his efforts have not been up to par.


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